Video Games with Real* Moral® Choices? !

[putowtin]

Fallout New Vegas. Caesar´s Legion is the best example of evil dickheads, but they have some potencial for good, and if you side with them, the NCR, Mr. House or Yes Man is just a question of your moral beliefs, and not of black or white general conceptions of good and evi,

Gonna have to disagree with you there. Its painted very early on that Caesar's legion is suppose to bed the bad guys and the NCR are suppose to be the good guys. Sure the NCR show a bit of a bad side with all the drunk soldiers at New Vegas, but its still clear their the "good" choice.

but how are the NCR a true "halo over head" good choice, it is stated that they take land by force and anyone living in areas they take over are forced to live by the NCR rule, how is this any different from the Legion (apart from the slavery?)

The true "halo over head" good choice, has to be to take over and run New Vegas for the people of New Vegas

 

[ChupathingyX]

The true "halo over head" good choice, has to be to take over and run New Vegas for the people of New Vegas

But then people will eventually try to rule themselves, riots break out, people are free to do what they want and everything becomes a mess.

Even in one of the Followers endings it mentions that an independent Vegas ends up making a lot of people hurt and killed and that it was too much for the Followers to handle. Basically New Vegas becomes a worse place to live after gaining independency then when the NCR and Legion were fighting over it.

Also, the NCR may seem like the good choice, but they do have a lot of bad things.

For one they are lead by a militaristic former war hero obsessed with his own legend who wants to be known throughout the land as having the greatest society in America. High ranked officials such as Moore and Oliver represent many bad things about the NCR, they are both imperialistic to the point of doing anything to get the job done, even if it means taking over people's land and making them members of the NCR against their will.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

The true "halo over head" good choice, has to be to take over and run New Vegas for the people of New Vegas

Gah... there is no 'true good' ending in New Vegas, which is kind of the point. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, you can't set up a no-bad-consequences ending. Even if you do everything absolutely right people will still get hurt and there will be at least short term problems. It comes from all those minor factions with opposing or irreconcilable goals.

 

[CRRPGMykael]

Yeah,WRPG's usually have those.And by WRPG's I mean the Bethesda games directed by Todd Howard,who is,in fact,totally awesome.Fable and inFamous are kinda stuck with them too,along with Alpha Protocol,etc,but the only games that really FEEL like they're altering the game depending on how you play it would be the Mass Effect games and yeah,Bethesda's WRPG's.

 

[Irridium]

The Witcher series.

There are no bars telling you what's good/bad, no clear good/bad characters. There are just people, sides, choices, and concequences. You decide what is moral. You decide what is good or bad, not the game.

Knights Of The Old Republic II

Although Light and Dark side were present, they were handled very differently to the straight up press for rainbow kittens or nuke orphanage style options for KOTOR I. The choices made in that game were primarily to focus on your survival, you're constantly being hunted by psychotic Sith Lords, you yourself are a wound in the force, drawing in life around you and influencing all those who travel with you, not everything is centered on your karma. Your actions affect the way your companions look upon the world, for you, most of the options involve going out of your way to try to improve the lives of those around you, of course, these means you'll spend a lot of time focusing on others rather than yourself. Or you can focus on getting stronger quickly and allow others to struggle for themselves.

Examples such as the fight within the palace at Onderon, depending on who you picked to help, do you aid the soldiers fighting by risking loss of energy and vitality, or do you conserve your strength to face your own greater challenges.

Then there are a lot more complex moments, such as a beggar on Nar Shadda, who won't leave you alone until you either threaten the man with violence or hand over some credits, yet either of the actions results in suffering, such as the man running in fear but attacking someone else for money, or he is attacked for his newly gained credits.

Plus there is a great sense of motives within the story, of course there are some straight up good/evil choices, but those usually tie in well with the main story, and usually branch out, rather than asking you to simply save a child or set it on fire, you might be given the choice, such as, to aid the Jedi Masters who cast you out, as well as recieving some rather crucial knowledge. Or perhaps you would rather have revenge for what you believe they did to you, you'll tear what you want from them, but the further down the road, more and more will turn their backs on you.

In a game like KOTOR II, you can't simply save everyone, you can't please everyone, even the smallest decisions affect the outcomes of so many lives, the Exile's complex background ensures that it's never as simple as being the next Jesus/Hitler. All of your choices have benefits, consequences, branches and complex morals and influences rolled up into one.

Oh god this. If Lucasarts didn't chop off one year of development time, this game would have easily been better than Kotor 1. Playing it with the content restored mod/patch is like going from night to day. It's just... amazing.

Kreia is easily the best video game character I've encountered.

 

[Irridium]

Alpha Protcal is the best game out their for moral choices.
No silly burden of a morality bar, and no Jesus, comedian and baby eating anti Christ choices.
Do you try to sweet talk this man who is reluctant to give you information? He might not help you. Why not try slamming his head into the table you would get the information faster but will make a scene.

Apart from that there are loads of live and die situations and if you let this guy go he can help you catch someone worse.

Oh yeah, also this.

In fact, Obsidian games as a whole have a pretty good reputation for providing actual moral choices. Of course they also have a reputation for shitty endings(which seems to have been fixed as of late) and buggy-ass games. So it's a trade-off I suppose.

 

[Olorune]

Fallout New Vegas. Caesar´s Legion is the best example of evil dickheads, but they have some potencial for good, and if you side with them, the NCR, Mr. House or Yes Man is just a question of your moral beliefs, and not of black or white general conceptions of good and evi,

Gonna have to disagree with you there. Its painted very early on that Caesar's legion is suppose to bed the bad guys and the NCR are suppose to be the good guys. Sure the NCR show a bit of a bad side with all the drunk soldiers at New Vegas, but its still clear their the "good" choice.

Caesar's Legion was made by Caesar to "right the wrongs of society. He's brutal and so are his soldiers, but he said himself that he used the Roman theme because he believed they saw the big picture and could do more for the world in the long run.

On a more personal note, I sided with myself, but used both NCR and Legion resources. Had a hard time keeping them from killing me. I figured New Vegas was damned either way, so why not let it die out in a free world.

 

[XxSummonerxX]

From my understanding of the OP (which considering it's past midnight might be a little hazy) I half agree.

In most games, evil is the easy way with more immediate benefits, and good is the hard way with powerful benefits later on.

I can think of one perfect example:
There's a mission in KOTOR 2 where you are tasked to go into the ruins of the Jedi Academy on Dantooine and recover the corpses and wills of these treasure hunters/scavengers. You can alter these wills and receive a lightsaber part (or a lightsaber if you've already assembled yours) or you can keep it that way and get a fairly large amount of money.

I, being evil, got the lightsaber. My brother, being good, got the money. He spent his money on a powerful crystal for his lightsaber. I killed things. Ultimately, his sabers were better than mine, but I was a Sith Lord with epic lightning powers so meh, who needs lightsabers?

 

[Titan Buttons]

Mass Effect 2. Legion's loyalty mission. One of the deepest moral choices I have ever had to make in a video game. Do I choose to destroy the Geth base and therefore prolonging the war, or do I choose to infect the base with the given virus, rewriting them to be better Geth themselves, like Legion.

There stands the morality. Who am I to change the Geth's perception of the universe? Where do I stand to force the Geth to be like Legion, accepting of organic life? If I remember correctly, Extra Credits touched base on this very example. It really stands out, you see.

See I never saw it like that. To me this Geth faction was a victim of Sovereign's mind control and manipulation. So when it came to choosing, to me it was either Murder life forms that are only violent because they where almost exterminated or reverse the manipulation done to them so they can rejoin there people.

OP: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 1+2 had good moral choice systems, even allowing for you to be neutral.

 

[ChupathingyX]

Yeah,WRPG's usually have those.And by WRPG's I mean the Bethesda games directed by Todd Howard,who is,in fact,totally awesome.Fable and inFamous are kinda stuck with them too,along with Alpha Protocol,etc,but the only games that really FEEL like they're altering the game depending on how you play it would be the Mass Effect games and yeah,Bethesda's WRPG's.

Bethesda games have good morality, which ones...

Oblivion where the game clearly makes you out to be a hero fighting against an evil cult trying to get Satan Mehrunes Dagon and his evil minions to Tamriel so they can take over the world.

Or are you referring to Fallout 3, where towards the end of the game you are given an option of activating the purifier (giving you good karma), or inserting the FEV into it (giving you bad karma). Then there's Broken Steel where you are givent he choice to either blow up the Citadel (bad karma) or blow up the Mobile base (good karma).

Even Morrowind, although superior to Oblivion in various departments, had a good vs evil storyline (although, at least there was some sense of greyness).

 

[Sexy Devil]

Infamous had a few, One being notable for

Spoiler

Choosing between saving the doctors who could save millions, or your lover

Maybe not so much a moral choice because

Spoiler

She dies either way

8 Doctors saving millions? Hardly. Infamous 1 was full of shitty moral choices.

InFamous in general is full of shitty moral choices that have absolutely no reason to be in there. The only one that would have any sort of weighting in the end is at the end of inFamous 2 and if they do decide to keep the series going they're going to have to make one of those canonical.

Still, it's pretty clear from the minimal choices in the second game that they realised it was a huge mistake.

 

[Robo-Penguin]

Tactics Ogre. From the git go your morality is questioned for the cause. In one scenario you are forced to decide to massacre a village to strengthen cause of your rebellion or refuse and be branded a traitor. Worse yet, your clear cut decision never ends with the positive since the village is slaughtered regardless. That's one the better cases but your actions determine who you win on your side throughout the game. On top of that, there is no true good or evil presented as you seem to be tossed and turned between the ambitions of one politician or another.

 

[DaHero]

Fire Emblem always forces me to make tough decisions; "Do I let this unit die, or do I restart the whole chapter?"
- Not sure if it qualifies as a moral choice though.

I always restarted, I DO NOT LET RAVEN DIE!

OP Freespace 2 has one very big choice. You're waiting as a jump node (it's a space game) and you're an undercover spy for "the good guys" when sudden;y a civilian transport shows up. Inside the transport (if you scan it) it says the cargo is civilians, the transport flies under you as your rebel squad encourages you to shoot it down so you have a choice...do you destroy the transport and maintain your cover, possibly saving yours and millions of other lives with intel later on, or do you not destroy it and fight a death-battle, ending your cover right there and losing all chance of finding the vital intel?

 

[Wintermoot]

FONV none of the factions are entirely evil or entirely good

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Fallout New Vegas. Caesar´s Legion is the best example of evil dickheads, but they have some potencial for good, and if you side with them, the NCR, Mr. House or Yes Man is just a question of your moral beliefs, and not of black or white general conceptions of good and evi,

Gonna have to disagree with you there. Its painted very early on that Caesar's legion is suppose to bed the bad guys and the NCR are suppose to be the good guys. Sure the NCR show a bit of a bad side with all the drunk soldiers at New Vegas, but its still clear their the "good" choice.

True, in your early encounters, it is clear that Caesar´s Legion are a bunch of murdering, raping assholes, but when it´s time to make up your mind (cookie for people who realize the FNV reference), you see that the guy who is in charge is a charismatic leader who believes that in do all those evil acts now, you can after do something good. So it´s the "I can be good but my troops keep doing dickhead acts", and the proof is that you can finish up the game for Caesar with a good karma. And according to Cass, their roads are really safe.

I´m still and NCR hero, but I recognize that Legion has their good spots. It´s a "do all it takes" kind of good.

P.S. This doesn´t apply to real life. Every murderer wanna-be that reads this can´t say this in an hypothetical court. I really don´t want to end up in every anti-terrorism force watch-list.

Spoiler: Seems related

That out of the way, I disagree about Caesar's Legion having any moral ambiguity.

Look at the way they treat others, especially women. Remember that Legion POW you can talk to? How he talks about how he makes sure that the slave collars are really tight so the slaves never forget their "place". And they kill people by nailing them to crosses. Killing Caesar was one of the most fun things ever.

Even though he may have thought he could do more good this way, his actions show something else

Spoiler: Also Related

EDIT: Also let me add that according to the G.E.C.K. (The creation tool for the game), Ceasar and his second in command have Very Evil Karma

I think Dragon Age Origins did a good job at it.

 

[Cogwheel]

You've also got Atlus games - Devil Survivor had in my opinion one of the best implementations of choices in any game period

You really are a rabid DS fan, aren't you?

I approve. Fantastic game. Of course, being good at moral choices in games is to be expected from Atlus. After all, they were the first to implement it in games, to my knowledge. In related news, I've picked up DS2 and am playing it now. But before I get back to that, since I'm curious...

Spoiler: DS spoilers

Which ending did you go with on your first run? I played blind and went with the Naoya ending, though I was quite torn and almost went with Atsuro.

 

[Grimrider6]

Somebody said it earlier ITT, but New Vegas has no "pure good" ending. Legion is pretty evil (with some social stability), NCR is less evil (but plenty imperialistic and willing to trample over others' rights). The Anarchy/Freedom ending is painted as the most "good", but even then you bring more chaos, fighting, and instability to the Strip thanks to it. Which ending is "good" or "bad" depends entirely upon how you, the player, feel about it. That's what makes it a real moral choice game.

 

[Ruwrak]

From my point of view moral choices (those which have been presented so far) are not much more then a menu you can chose the option you'd feel best with.

As long as you choose between set-up points players will always think of ANOTHER way the developers have not programmed into the game. (For example Fable III ending, 1 year of hard work = 1 life of joy. But none seems to realize that...)

A tough -choice- (yes I leave out moral because it's relative to the person itself) is choosing between two bad things. For example, in Mass Effect II there is a side-mission where you get to decide which of the two missiles you want to destroy. One missile goes for the economical sector and one goes to the residential area. The economical harbor is the lifeline of a certain space-station. You would minimize casualties, but the space-station would be depleted (and never recover) from such a blow to the economy. OR you get to blow up the residential area, killing thousands of men, woman and children.

This is not so much a choice of morals and ethics, but a choice between two wrongs. If we want to talk about Karma, there are lots of ways to interpretate karma (or 'good' and evil').
What is right and what is wrong depends on how the programmers made it.

For example, killing someone is bad (in general, when people are not threatening you it's bad.) but putting someone out of their misery is not. You get (usually) the choice to either execute him or leave him in pain.

But where is the option to leave him in pain, steal his stuff and scamper off laughing like an evil jerk? When it comes to morals, we are far to limited by what the developers have programmed. As a player we are subjugated to pre-made choices and pre-thought scenario's. This is partly to the incapability of current technology to anticipate on human thoughts (we'd need some form of thinking AI wich responds to the randomity of the human mind.).

Moral choices as they are now, in my opinion, cannot be called moral choices. We're more busy picking out the best of worst or even worse. We're stuck with karma points that work against you (i.e. I wanna have bad karma in Fall Out New Vegas, but those bandits that attack me make it bloody hard to keep up with negative karma)