"Virgin shaming": I know we have a lot of "but what about men's problems?" people out there.

[Vegan_Doodler]

Snip

Ok I really don't get your point, Slut and virgin shaming exists for both genders and is looked down upon by both genders, As it should, looking down on some one for any reason is a dick move. I do think you need to word your argument better, Not using the word 'Minority' properly, and the whole 'Women should not be expected to not have sex, and men should not be expected to have sex.' suggests you think the situation should be reversed which would be just as bad. Lastly you really need to be less condescending, through out the thread I've read you saying things like "Then you'll stay ignorant of the truth.", seriously, this is arrogant, do you think your self some sort of oracle with all the answers, what you have is opinion (which is absolutely fine) not fact. Honestly, reading alot of the posts I was reminded of this.
http://philebersole.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/sheeple.png

When I tell men I don't drink (and never have) they look at me like I have three heads.

I agreed with you completely in your previous post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.367382.14298146], but man... you don't drink?!
You're clearly not from the UK then.

I'm from the UK, I don't drink, EVERYONE COME LOOK AT THE CRAZY MAN.

-'virgin shaming'-

Well, to be honest, if you (anyone) is a virgin, then you have yet to experience an important part of life.

This stuff right here is worse because it doesn't look like virgin shaming but the underlining idea is still there. And also from what I can tell, you are not a god, so who are you to say what a fundamental part of life is or isn't. This attitude is just as damaging as any other form of pier pressure, weather it be for sex, alcohol, or skydiving.
This mind set is just inherently stupid any way, to put value on one arbatry and ultimately pointless action is just dum.


I have to admit that I have only read the first few pages but this thread seems a bit hypercritical, to a one point say 'Grrrrrr dam sexism' and then assign particular traits to a given gender is... well.... sexist, and to make blanket statements about entire groups is further evidence of that. This isn't a gender issue, this is a societal issue.

Sorry for the text wall but just one more point, to those sujesting men are the cause and root of all these problems, just shut up, I'm sick of this kind of feminist spewing bullshit, and no that note, feminists, you need to clean up your ranks because it's not men who are hurting your cause it's hate filled idiots using your name. One final, final point, if feminists want equality why are they called FEMinists? '
"I'm sick of all this racial in equality, I'm guna start a white people are awesome movement, that wont get used by racists in any way!"

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Ignoring the massive amount of arguing going on, I merely would like to point out something personal that I have experienced and sorta contradicts some of what's been said, mostly that it's a high-school/teenage problem.

The tension to have sex may be high there, possibly at it's highest throughout life. But at least for me, High school was not the end of people belittling me for the fact that I have not gotten laid. It's been more than a few years since I've been out of high-school and into the real world and co-workers, friends, people around me are still generally always interested in who sleeps with who. It doesn't end as you grow up, depending, I think, on where you live and your social circle.

Recently my girlfriend broke up with me after a relationship of some years. We hadn't had sex due to her reservations about it and I was fine with that. I wasn't a fan at first but I grew to be genuinely okay with it. Her companionship was far more important to me than just getting some. However every time I crashed at her place or she stayed with me, invariably the first question out of my friends' mouths was: "So did you get any?!". It makes me facepalm to this day. Even recently when I told them while we were playing a few rounds of Magic at a friend's house the first reaction after a moment of silence was "you shoulda poked that". No offering of condolences, not even an attempt to share in my lament that a valued partner and great comfort in my life is gone, just the regret that I hadn't gotten any sex. Ugh.

I have yet to understand, and doubt I ever will, the rampant fascination with sex. It doesn't just exist as a teenager, it exists at almost all levels of life. I have been looked at weird and questioned by guys in their forties and fifties because when they say "there's a hot girl over there!" I simply respond with "busy doing work, don't care.". I enjoy the possibility of sex, I have my own quirks and things in regards to such. But it need not be, and I am getting tired of people demanding it be, a central tenant in my everyday life. I have enough problems on my plate without worrying about the fact that I don't have someone I can bed tonight.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Actually, the dildo was invented millennia ago. The vibrator was a Victorian invention. (Almost) all vibrators are dildos; not anywhere near all dildos are (or were, at any rate) vibrators. Other than that, I don't really have anything to disagree with in this post.

Just to nit-pick, the Victorian period was roughly 150 years ago, not 1000.

Yes, but dildos have been around at least as long as humans have (probably longer in fact; female chimpanzees have been known to make them). Simply put, not all dildos are vibrators.

 

[The Rainmaker]

Oh my god, I hate feminists so much, and not because of what they stand for. It's the way they always seem to present themselves. This thread has done nothing good for feminism, and has probably only made people respect feminists less. Total equality will never exist, and that's because of double standards, which will never go away. And that's good! Imagine if a man wanted to breast-feed, should he not be looked down upon and be allowed to do it because women can? And when it comes to work and salary, women generally make the same amount of money as men IF they are doing the same work. The thing is that men often have higher paying jobs because of legitimate reasons - that doesn't mean that the opportunity for women to have them doesn't exist.

 

[Bruenin]

Oh my god, I hate feminists so much, and not because of what they stand for. It's the way they always seem to present themselves. This thread has done nothing good for feminism, and has probably only made people respect feminists less. Total equality will never exist, and that's because of double standards, which will never go away. And that's good! Imagine if a man wanted to breast-feed, should he not be looked down upon and be allowed to do it because women can? And when it comes to work and salary, women generally make the same amount of money as men IF they are doing the same work. The thing is that men often have higher paying jobs because of legitimate reasons - that doesn't mean that the opportunity for women to have them doesn't exist.

What's wrong with male breast feeding? sure.. it's different I guess. But they need to be shamed and looked down upon? that's just silly.

so... you're saying that double standards are good because they support gender roles... that women HAVE to do this and men HAVE to do this...

>.> that idea doesn't sound good, I think I'd rather have men breast feeding children than to have something like that be even more supported. I hate gender roles

 

[Cecilthedarkknight_234]

I am a twenty six year old virgin who has never even seen a female naked "besides when i was a kid". In all honesty I don't give a sh*t anymore about it and those who want to make fun of me, well come at me bro.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

I am a twenty six year old virgin who has never even seen a female naked "besides when i was a kid". In all honesty I don't give a sh*t anymore about it and those who want to make fun of me, well come at me bro.

If i was gonna make fun of someone "locations that your dick has been" are pretty far low down on the list. Does anyone who anyone REALLY respects care anyway? Its always that generic "jock" douchebag character type who cares about this kinda thing. No real person ive met assigns too much thought to it.

 

[Dan Steele]

A lot of guys seem to really erroneously think that men are a minority because because all areas of law like pushing babies on women(the "child custody" anti-feminists, for instance). And that feminists don't care about men's problems at all just because they realize society is a patriarchy and women are a minority(being a minority isn't about numbers. It's about social status. See: apartheid South Africa).

Well, I'm here to say that I hate slut shaming. And that is has another, also horrible counterpart for men: virgin shaming. Sad thing about double standards is, men don't get much slut shaming, as they get virgin shaming.

This is as common on the internet as anywhere. Of course, most virgin shaming comes from guys at other guys. Guys really go after other guys when they start arguing with other guys, that the other person is a "pathetic virgin". Seriously, how many times have you seen this insult on the internet? I've probably seen it several thousand times.

There are guys in high school who have started admitting they aren't actually super interested in having sex right now, they just want to have sex with a popular girl so that they can brag to friends about "getting laid", to be loved by their male peers. Because a man often literally feels judged for not sexually conquesting women. It's a disgusting pressure men should not have, and I know I'm going to take flack for this, but quite honestly, quite a bit misogynist.

The idea that "men give love to get sex" is a stupid lie. And in many cases, men probably have sex to get love, ...from their peers. A lot of men want to have sex more, just to feel better about themselves. A very, very unhealthy desire and social pressure.

Furthermore, I think that virgin shaming and slut shaming are directly related to each. And as a feminist(or at least a woman heavily influenced by it), I am, quite frankly, disgusted by the situation of gender both ways. Women should not be expected to not have sex, and men should not be expected to have sex.

I would like to add to this, there is some minor slut shaming for men and virgin shaming for women. I think the virgin-whore dichotomy is worse for women. But the pressure for men to have lots of sex is fairly unique and also downright disgusting. It's almost like all men are expected to be imperialists sexually. Especially if you're a young man and not some old political figure. And I don't think men would be expected to be sexually active if women weren't expected to be sexually pure.

Unfortunately I am one of such men who is slammed for being a virgin. Why is it such a bad thing to treat woman like my equals instead of being a sex obsessed jock that only views woman as tools for desire?

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Imagine if a man wanted to breast-feed

Men can breast-feed? But...they don't have breasts. I mean, not actual breasts, and at least not in the sense that they can produce milk out of them. Unless I'm completely wrong, since I fail at biology.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Imagine if a man wanted to breast-feed

Men can breast-feed? But...they don't have breasts. I mean, not actual breasts, and at least not in the sense that they can produce milk out of them. Unless I'm completely wrong, since I fail at biology.

Take it with a grain of salt, because I read it on Cracked.com, but apparently all of the equipment is there, and if you let the baby suckle enough, things start to flow.

 

[WOPR]

And that's where I leave this thread.

If you think "male supremacy" is the source of nearly all of the problems men and women face then I just won't bother with you.

I doubt you'll mind much either.

Then you'll stay ignorant of the truth.

Spoiler: Off Topic Comment

You think the world would seriously be a better place if women were in charge?
I mean I'm all up for equality, I'm just saying that as a serious indifferent question. You would rather that the gender that lets emotion cloud their logic in decision making (due to a larger corpus callosum) ending in much slower progression in a hope to do the impossible and make compromises that make EVERYONE happy be in charge, than the gender that keeps them as separate as possible ending in decisions that are logically thought out, but sadly do not include the feelings and emotions of the others sometimes leading to disagreement? (Point is both have Pros and Cons, but one progresses faster. If you disagree you should go to a board meeting or jury duty quite a few times. The men seem to always pitch ideas [which almost ALWAYS lead to argument] while the women generally clam up. The one time I WAS on an almost all female jury they girls took charge and completely excluded me [the only man] and tried to let the guy off scott free because they didn't think petty theft [he stole a box of candy bars] was deserving of any sentence, long story short I pulled a filibuster and they all got mad and emotional and I was stuck in there forever before I reached a compromise.)

I'm all for equality, I just like to observe and have all my facts straight. Another thing in your argument is saying women are in a minority, the population is 51% women and 49% men. Isn't the definition of minority "The smaller in number of two groups forming a whole". By what logic (using that definition) are women in the minority?

Also, let's pretend for a second women were the supremacy. Honestly things probably wouldn't be that much different, could possibly be a reverse of the current, etc etc. I could EASILY see in a woman dominate world women being free to pursue whatever they want while men are expected to be hunks that play football, and see sites like memebase cluttered with pictures of brilliant men (such as Einstein) with a "get back in the field" joke as opposed to the current "back in the kitchen" sexist slur of a "joke")

In my opinion at least, the problem is more the race than the gender, humans seem to be greedy creatures that feel better about putting others down to feel important. Hence the existence of bullies, social-classes, superiority, sexism, racism, and bigotry in general.

Or to make that short, even if women were treated equally, or even treated as the superiors, we'd still have the same problems, possibly more, possibly in the other direction, possibly less even, we can only speculate.

As for the original post (and back on subject) I mostly agree with it, there is that tension towards men, I can't even begin to count how often I was bullied in school for being a virgin, not to mention how often I was called gay (even by relatives [male and female]) because I had no interest in sex.

also if I guy has "virgin" as a pre-requisite...yeah..fuck you

I know right?

HOW DARE PEOPLE HAVE PREFERENCES??? HOW DARE THEY?!?!? DAMN FUCKING SEXIST PIGS!

alright..I may have come across as a little more agressive than needed..suuure its their right and all

but its damn hypocritical if you ask me (mabye less if they guy himself is a virgin) to me its less about treating me as a person..and more as property..or a "prize"

liek I said..I dont think virginity is all that "special" and coming from the days of relious, I dont think anyone is "unpure" or "corrupted" if they have had sex

I'll throw my hat in and say that I wanted a virgin (as a virgin) and it wasn't because of a "prize" or anything, it was more of a comfort issue, that pressure that if I was with a woman who had experienced it before (perhaps many a time even) that I'd be judged and wouldn't meet her expectations. It was just my personal feeling I'm just throwing it out there, I will also add that I do feel like men that like to sleep around and celebrate whenever they get a virgin girl with them are acting a scummy, especially if they deceive said girl. (I have a friend that was used like that.)

 

[LilithSlave]

I took a couple days break from a thread again. I hope nobody blames me, it's a healthy thing to do. After all, arguing is tiresome, and often more pointless than people give it credit for. I think I've contributed enough to this thread already anyway.

I need my "me time" sometimes.

If the market for porn specifically for females was big enough

There would be a larger market for women if so much of the mainstream pornographic material wasn't so offensive toward women.

Do you think theres some sort of conspiracy to NOT make porn women enjoy, no matter what profits it could bring?

Do you automatically think that if someone claims that something is not fair, and that one group has privilege over another, that there's some kind of conspiracy at work?

Someone should be able to criticize cultural norms without being blamed of believing in some kind of malicious conspiracy.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

Oh look, people are yelling at eachother in an article about sexism!

I'm so amazingly surprised!

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

First off, I'm going to say I agree very much with the idea you're trying to get across, I just have some issues with the particulars. Virgin shaming is definitely one of the more shameful parts of society in general, not just the male portion. I don't know about you, but I have seen a fair bit of virgin shaming on the female side as well. I think a large part of virgin shaming isn't just about sexual conquest over a woman, but also a sign of inadequacy. Sure, people will phrase it as "You couldn't get a girl if you wanted to", but the part that really stings is the subtext of "No girl would WANT to get with you". I'm sure that there are people that legitimately do think of it as a matter of conquest, but most of the guys I know don't see it as anything like that.

I live in Canada and I don't think I've ever been the target of virgin shaming, at least not to my face. There's always been a slight pressure to have sex placed on me, but I've never felt that it was anything to be ashamed of. This is to the extent that I had sex several months ago and didn't feel any need to let anyone know I wasn't a virgin anymore. Congrats! You're the first to hear. Now don't you feel special?

If the market for porn specifically for females was big enough

There would be a larger market for women if so much of the mainstream pornographic material wasn't so offensive toward women.

Do you think theres some sort of conspiracy to NOT make porn women enjoy, no matter what profits it could bring?

Do you automatically think that if someone claims that something is not fair, and that one group has privilege over another, that there's some kind of conspiracy at work?

Someone should be able to criticize cultural norms without being blamed of believing in some kind of malicious conspiracy.

This seems REALLY off topic. I haven't read all 12 pages so I don't know how exactly how smooth the transition went from virgin shaming to male oriented porn, but it does seem like quite a stretch.

EDIT: As this topic seems to be also very much about slut shaming, I may as well put up my opinions of that as well. As disappointed as I am to say it, when I hear that a girl has slept with a lot of guys it does initially give me a negative opinion. Now, on the other hand when a guy has slept with a lot of girls then I get the same feeling. I'm definitely not someone who puts sex on this almighty pedestal, it's physical pleasure, why read anything more into it then you need to? But even so, I find myself comparing them to people I know who are manipulative and feel no issue doing whatever it takes to get someone in bed. Actually after hearing excerpts from "The Game" I'm almost more judgmental about guys sleeping around. It's just a knee-jerk reaction though, and it rarely persists past the initial impression.

 

[LilithSlave]

This topic has been all over the place, it really has.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

This topic has been all over the place, it really has.

Sadly I'm seeing a lot more people accusing you of being a feminazi than arguing against your points