"Virgin shaming": I know we have a lot of "but what about men's problems?" people out there.

[LilithSlave]

snip

A lot of people look past things because they know they're in the minority or don't want to cause waves.

You've clearly missed a great deal of women vocalizing problems with the industry.

Just because some people don't appear to care much about an issue, doesn't mean that many women aren't incredibly uncomfortable about the state of the gaming industry.

 

[Satosuke]

Seriously? This discussion has been going on this long? I could have summed it up in 3 words.

People are shit.

There. Explains everything. Book it, done.

 

[Paragon Fury]

snip

A lot of people look past things because they know they're in the minority or don't want to cause waves.

You've clearly missed a great deal of women vocalizing problems with the industry.

Just because some people don't appear to care much about an issue, doesn't mean that many women aren't incredibly uncomfortable about the state of the gaming industry.

When women start getting the required computer, technical and design degrees required to have the jobs that actually influence the games industry, then you'll see the change you want. Until then, deal with it.

You can't just walk in and demand something be changed by people whose old system works just fine. You especially can't demand that it be changed by people who have no idea what the fuck you want, and have almost no reliable ways to get the information that would lead to that change. And then you are demanding something that from a business prospective may not be a viable way to earn income.

 

[Faladorian]

And some dudes have a virgin preference? I'm honestly interested to understand that. Unless it's some sort of fetish. Is it some sort of fetish?

It's not a fetish, more of a neurosis.

The thought of a girl I'm with having done really anything sexual in nature with another guy sickens me. It literally makes me feel like I'm going to throw up.

And it's nothing to do with "slut shaming," really. It's more like a possessive thing, if anything. Like, when I think about it, I feel like it's being done right in front of me in the present moment, even though it's obviously not. But i still get that sinking feeling as if it were.

It's really a tortuous characteristic of mine, and I'd wish it away at the snap of a finger if I could. Especially since I'm well aware that the older I get, the less likely it is that I wont have to deal with it.

That's the best I can explain it. Hope that's a little insight on that. Also, it's not just guys that feel this way. It probably stems more from immaturity than sexism.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Ignore the hentai shit for a few seconds, because no one here watches that shit so its irrelevant. I have twice asked you what the problem is and you have failed to answer. You just splutter "B-b-but... Degrading! What? Whats the problem with that? Well its... Its... Its degrading!"

*cough* Yes, no one here... *cough*

Well this just got awkward.

snip

A lot of people look past things because they know they're in the minority or don't want to cause waves.

You've clearly missed a great deal of women vocalizing problems with the industry.

Just because some people don't appear to care much about an issue, doesn't mean that many women aren't incredibly uncomfortable about the state of the gaming industry.

Some men too, and really I have little problem with pandering so long as they don't use that as an excuse not to give the female character a personality. Pandering is ignored easily enough, personality-less husk with boobs is slightly more difficult. Of course that's being a man, if my gender was being overly sexualized in a game I might feel it slightly uncomfortable to play the game because of that.

I think it's mainly an issue with how marketing based the industry has become, the higher profile the game is the more it tends to focus on male power fantasies and unnecessary sexual displays. The smaller indie games rarely show that poor taste, because they're more about making a good game then trying to get as much of the gaming public to play it. Of course it also has a fair bit to do with the maturity of the industry which, in a lot of places, still needs a lot of improvement.

 

[ItsAChiaotzu]

People still bring up Freudian psychology in 2012?

Look, guys, I don't mind bringing psychology up in an argument, but could you at least use a source that isn't 80+ years old? Freud's psychological theories are largely anachronistic today, especially when it comes to sex.

All psychology isn't Freudian.

Some might say this is nitpicky, but that's not strictly true.

The implication of what you said is that there is no psychology that is Freudian, a better way of phrasing it might be "Not all Psychology is Freudian" or "Psychology isn't all Freudian".

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I agree that slut shaming is a thing and it's a bad thing, but I think there are aspects that are going largely ignored, and I think those aspects are pretty intrinsically linked to the whole virgin shaming thing too.

See, I don't know about you, but most of the guys I've seen who espouse the "key fits many locks, master key!" Kind of philosophy with a straight face are stereotypical examples of what I'd call a douchebag. As a result of this, instead of the respect and adoration of their peers that some people seem to think they get, outside of their own circle of (likely also quite douchebaggy) friends, they're usually looked upon with some scorn. Linking it back to "slut shaming", I think what you'll find is that lots of girls who have sex with loads of guys also fit a certain stereotype, you know what I'm thinking, underachiever, enough foundation to successfully cover their entire body on one cheek? These factors are going to colour someones judgement of a girl regardless of who she's had sex with, but the association of that kind of girl with being particularly promiscuous is one that in my opinion at least makes a bit more sense of the idea of "slut shaming". (Which is not the same as saying I agree with it)

 

[Lim3]

- snip -

So i guess you agree that we should all live in a brave new world where everyone has sex with everyone and its the social norm?

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

snip

No offense, but I'm getting the distinct impression that you don't watch much porn, if any at all. Porn tends to be just as degrading to men as it is to women; everyone's objectified, since they're all sex objects. Heck, I find myself fast forwarding through a lot of the stuff because of how much time it spends focused on the male genitals. That old "porn is degrading to women!" canard is just patently false.

 

[Bloodysoldier]

Ugh, another school kid who is just learning about women's rights. Decided to stop listening to her/his teacher after he/she said female oppression. So very, very sad. Op You and your kin insult my fiancee and everything she has worked hard and strived for. I hope you grow out of this other wise you sicken me. Have a good day.

On better news my fiancee is only twenty and she has three semesters left till she is finished with her bachelor's degree.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Do you automatically think that if someone claims that something is not fair, and that one group has privilege over another, that there's some kind of conspiracy at work?

Someone should be able to criticize cultural norms without being blamed of believing in some kind of malicious conspiracy.

I just wanna clarify here. You say there isnt enough porn for women, or not enough non degredation porn. Are companies not making this because they dont want to? Even if they would make money? Is this massive hole in the market sitting there because people who make porn would rather stick to what they know rather than make a mint on an apparently obvious hole?

Why cant i go out there right now and make a bajillion dollars if this area is so lacking and demand is so great? Thats the point i think he was trying to make. It sorta has to be a conspiricy to keep supply so low where there is a demand. Because basic capitolism tells us SOMEONE would come forward and fill it and make tonnes of money.

 

[Nisselue]

Yeah, but on the other hand, if a man fuck around he's a stallion, but if a woman does she's a slut/whore/tramp/skank etc.

Two wrongs does not make a right, I know, but I thaught it needed to be put in perspective.

That's because women generally decide everything. How often do you see women asking men on a date? I'm sure it happens from time to time, but it's very rare. Women are in charge in that category, along with deciding when they're willing to have to sleep with a guy. With that kind of control comes responsibility. If the world were reversed and women were available left and right for us to screw, we'd be the sluts if we didn't restrict our choices.

Copied them from another discussion. Do you guys think nr 2 has a point? I have never seen that kind of argument been made before so i am not quite sure what to think about it, and it's the middle of the night and i am tired.

 

[geK0]

I just wanna clarify here. You say there isnt enough porn for women, or not enough non degredation porn. Are companies not making this because they dont want to? Even if they would make money? Is this massive hole in the market sitting there because people who make porn would rather stick to what they know rather than make a mint on an apparently obvious hole?

Why cant i go out there right now and make a bajillion dollars if this area is so lacking and demand is so great? Thats the point i think he was trying to make. It sorta has to be a conspiricy to keep supply so low where there is a demand. Because basic capitolism tells us SOMEONE would come forward and fill it and make tonnes of money.

There's gay porn for the girls who like man on man,there's straight porn for the girls who like man on woman, and there's lesbian porn for girls who like women;how are any of these categories more for males than for females? : \
I have female friends who enjoy porn, and I've never heard any of them say anything along the lines of "this is obviously made for men!". I mean, if I really want to draw on stereotypes, I could say that all the bad acting and foreplay between the sex scenes are for the female viewers.... because women don't want to just watch two (or more) people doing it, right?

 

[cobra_ky]

Yeah, but on the other hand, if a man fuck around he's a stallion, but if a woman does she's a slut/whore/tramp/skank etc.

Two wrongs does not make a right, I know, but I thaught it needed to be put in perspective.

That's because women generally decide everything. How often do you see women asking men on a date? I'm sure it happens from time to time, but it's very rare. Women are in charge in that category, along with deciding when they're willing to have to sleep with a guy. With that kind of control comes responsibility. If the world were reversed and women were available left and right for us to screw, we'd be the sluts if we didn't restrict our choices.

Copied them from another discussion. Do you guys think nr 2 has a point? I have never seen that kind of argument been made before so i am not quite sure what to think about it, and it's the middle of the night and i am tired.

it's complete bullshit. Men decide who they want to sleep with and who they want to ask out. Sex should be based on mutual consent and everyone involved bears an equal share of responsibility.

 

[General BrEeZy]

I don't verbally bash people for any of that. I don't like looking at people like that at all, so I try to avoid it.
And I'll always be proud to be a virgin. Friends of mine that had sex in or before high school tell me that it's not all its cracked up to be, and that life loses a lot of color after. you're all "ok...i had sex...what should I do now?.....get a job, I guess?....." my friend said.

and I wouldn't be in any of this for a good bangin'. I want a Woman to Love me, not have a fling and then split. How do people do that? There's so much more to them than their looks. Then again I'd never ask someone out with the intent to have Sex. I'm in it for the long run.

 

[jboking]

Exactly. The fact is, the ratio of degrading maledom to everything else is incredibly stark. Sure, this is always a variety of choices and fetishes and different things out there.

But what is the norm and what is being normalized, is maledom. Not only does the majority of porn focus on women in one body type and have an extreme male gaze camera, it portrays an image that women like being dominated.

Most porn also focuses on males of one body type: Fit and hung. Also, concerning most porn has a tendency to display both individuals or focus on the genitals, I can't say it has a constant male gaze. Notice, this is not me saying male gaze doesn't exist in porn, just saying it is not as prevalent as you lead on. Also, I have a problem with your idea of "mainstream" porn. I would need you to identify what you classify as "mainstream," because, as I have seen and experienced it, porn on the internet is almost always broken down into categories of different fetishes and activities and, while maledom does have a large presence, so does femdom. Actually, I've seen a lot of porn that has no major focus one way or the other.

Oh, and all the while, the mainstream name to call women inside the porn industry, are degrading terms like "slut". If most porn were so "sexually liberating" for women, the industry itself that should be pumping them up for what they're doing, they're insulting them as much as everyone. The entire portrayal of women in the majority of porn, in word, in camera, in act, is degrading.

Spoiler: Confession of the personal variety here. You've been warned.

I have seen a ridiculous amount of porn where the male is called "slut." I've also seen a ridiculous amount of porn where the male is degraded, some where that is actually the whole point. For fucks sake, I feel that the porn industry, as a whole, is one of the most sexually equal industries we have today. In fact, what I see as the more hyper hetero male focused porn doesn't have the man saying anything at all and has the woman saying equally little. Also, back on the topic of "mainstream" porn, you might want to look at the heavy use of the term "cougar" today(So much so that it is part of the title of a prime-time television show). Porn of the "cougar" variety features a woman who is older, more experienced, and typically dominates/uses the male. While I will never claim that all women in porn are being 'liberated', I would contend that they are being no more degraded and sexually objectified than males in the same industry.

 

[Chao_Ulv]

OT,i've actually seen virgin shaming before, done to my as far as i know high functioning autistic brother, and nothing pisses me off more than that. I cant believe a male judges another male for that, epecially when said male is currently more successful :/. also, never heard o slut shaming, i thought it was par for the course to assume the girl your dating has been with another man at least once unless you are looking for a virgin. personnally, i would rather date a girl thats already been with someone else, because i dont want to be the guy breaking her cherry, really seems like that would be uncomfortable.

 

[Nyaliva]

-Snip-

Hello internet, I'm 19, going on 20 and I'm a virgin. Problem?

Seriously though, I agree with the OP on the polar expectations of society and I agree with the first poster for being turned off by promiscuous women. Not just that, but women who nothing more than to get drunk and have sex. I think that men embrace their social "requirements" and women notice this, meaning they believe men want nothing but sex, so they think that in order to have any kind of relationship they need to be willing to have sex on what passes for a first date these days (usually happening to meet in the toilets of a club). Anyway, I don't think I could have sex with a woman who I didn't respect and love and I certainly don't respect any woman who dresses like she's a prostitute.

However, upon consideration of the topic, I believe the strange social standard is anthropological: women are expected to have sex once and have a child before even considering sex again, while men are expected to have as much sex as possible and "spread their seed" as it were, increasing the size of the next generation. As it is, safe sex practices and birth control mean women are able to have sex more without having babies, and so this sudden (from an evolutionary stand point) change in women's ability to have sex is unsettling for women on an instinctual level, while it's seemingly beneficial from a male's perspective, and so they're driven to sex even more (even though it actually isn't, resulting in men who get turned off by promiscuous women). Anyway, just my two cents!