Visual Novels; their place in the gaming world?

[Scars Unseen]

Huh. Didn't take this thread too long to turn to shit.

Anyway.

Visual novels offer a different experience than that offered by more traditional forms of interactive media. As this thread has clearly demonstrated, that experience is not to everyone's tastes. And that's fine. To try to claim that there is no merit in the entire format because you happen to dislike it? Not so much. Not that I can stop you or even care to try.

The biggest advantage that VNs have for me is that -in the longer ones- they do a far better job of developing characters and their relationships with one another than any other form of media I've found, with the possible exception of actual novels. Furthermore, the first-person perspective, combined with the artwork and(in newer titles) voicework helps me feel more connected to the characters than I am in any but the best novels I've read.

I'm not an overly emotional person. I don't get upset easily, and people typically describe me as either "calm" or "cold" depending on whether they like me or not. I've never cried to movies or novels. My first visual novel had me emotionally wrecked for a week. There are songs from certain scenes in visual novels I've read that make my breath catch in my throat even a year after I've read them. That's the level of connection I feel after having spent 50+ hours reading a good VN.

The sex scenes... are a problem, I admit. It's not that they are there. I read erotic fiction from time to time, so there's no problem with that. It's that they are usually horribly written, even when the rest of the VN is amazing. Well that, and that in many VNs, the sex scenes are just a remnant from the format's roots in Japanese dating sims: they are just there as a "reward" for the player. Incidentally, Saya no Uta isn't one of those. However much one may or not like them, the sex in that VN definitely has narrative importance. On the other hand, Muv-Luv, one of my favorites, is a classic example of "You finished the route! Have some sex!" On the whole, I'd really like VN developers to take greater care when deciding if and how to include such scenes in their work.

I get why some people don't like VNs. They don't fufill the same need that people are going to games for in the first place. If there is a sliding scale between pure gameplay(arcade games, puzzlers) and story(JRPGs), visual novels are so far on one end that it's no surprise that many people -both fans and otherwise- don't consider them to be games at all. I'd argue that even then it depends on what title you are reading, since some are more interactive than others(Fate/Stay Night has 40 different bad endings you can reach for making the wrong choices), but hey... opinions.

 

[deathbydeath]

I dunno; mostly they aren't for me because shoddy animu is my mortal enemy. That being said, Katawa Shoujo is basically Spec Ops the Line, except it's actually good.

Their place in the gaming world? A garbage can. Visual Novels are a freakin' cancer. Not only they cost around 100 bucks each, but also they have nothing to compensate for this ridiculous price. Here's what you usually get for your money's worth:

- A few hours of piss-poor writing,
- Characters that are either one dimensional cardboard cutouts, or overly exagerrated anime tropes,
- At least three sex scenes (even when you buy a non-hentai oriented novel; looks almost like they have to meet some kind of T&A quota)
- Some pretty pictures to look at, while you experience the aforementioned shitty writing.

Yeah, and every video game should be burned because they are all:

- for 12 year-olds
- about shooting PoC
- exploit players with pay-to-wait Skinner Boxing
- rape women

 

[ninja666]

The sex scenes... are a problem, I admit. It's not that they are there. I read erotic fiction from time to time, so there's no problem with that. It's that they are usually horribly written, even when the rest of the VN is amazing. Well that, and that in many VNs, the sex scenes are just a remnant from the format's roots in Japanese dating sims: they are just there as a "reward" for the player. Incidentally, Saya no Uta isn't one of those. However much one may or not like them, the sex in that VN definitely has narrative importance.

It's not surprising, considering Saya no Uta's plot revolves almost exclusively around sex. Still, those scenes could've been written much more convincingly.

 

[Truth Cake]

Ah, so nice to see people fall back on the old 'I've played one or two and didn't like them personally therefore they are all shit' argument. Always warms the heart.

I've played some of them there VNs before. Even enjoyed a few, call me guilty; yes, even some that were incredibly poorly written and overall shit, though that's probably just to laugh at just how bad they are rather than actually enjoy them as an artistic work; but then there's some that I enjoyed simply because... well, it was a good story with interesting characters, setting and all that good stuff. Of course there was also a few that just bored me to tears so I gave them up, but hey, that comes with buying anything.

I put Visual Novels right on the edge of gaming, in that I barely consider them to be games. I don't mean this in any negative way, it's just there's usually not much player agency beyond 'pick one of these choices that we made for you' every so often, they more closely resemble books for the most part since most of the time you're reading a story that an author has put together for you. Of course that doesn't stop me from enjoying them from time to time, it's just I find this question kinda silly in that it's like saying 'where do comics fit in the book world?'.

That being said it is a legitimate way of telling a story that I find more engaging than reading a book since I can actually LOOK at the characters and such, and usually (at least with good ones) with a deeper and more interesting story than games since games studios also have to focus on... you know, the whole 'gameplay' aspect of the game as well.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

In a garbage can, where they can occasionally be searched through to have their better storylines adapted to manga and anime. Honestly, the format is fucking garbage. I play video games because I want to be engaged. Mashing the button to get to the next line of text is not engaging, even with pretty anime drawings in the background. They're just fucking boring.

They belong somewhere near the bottom of the gaming barrel, with all the other things that are poorly written and offer no gameplay whatsoever.

Have either of you actually played one of the damn games?

because from where I'm standing, it doesnt look like you did.

Hold on officer, let me get my Gamer Card... I swear I have it here somewhere, it's just it's been a while since somebody asked for it, you know? Ah, here it is. Katawa Shoujo. Indigo Prophecy. The Walking Dead. Is it okay if I take my knowledge on interactive drama and comment in this public thread now?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Ah, so nice to see people fall back on the old 'I've played one or two and didn't like them personally therefore they are all shit' argument. Always warms the heart.

Here's another heart-warmer: people who dismiss others' opinions unless they've played 20 games in a genre that hasn't held any appeal to them since game #1. It's the "it gets better 20 hours into the game" argument of excellence. Dude, there's only so much shit I'll wade through before I give up on a game/genre. I've played through about 10 visual novels and didn't like any of them very much. How many more before I'm allowed to criticize, again?

 

[Windcaler]

I think the answer is obvious. It depends on how the visual novel is done.

Most visual novels have extremely limited or sometimes even no interactivity making them not games but instead the equivilent of a book with pictures. Then there are some VNs such as Nocturnal illusion or Hunnie pop that allow for movement around the area and interaction with certain characters at the times the player decides. Then there is Long live the queen which has a ton of interactivity and a changing story based around what you do in the game.

VNs by themselves vary from VN to VN just as any other genre so I dont think you can flat out say that all VNs are or are not worthy of being called games

 

[remnant_phoenix]

In the gaming world? Well, people get really up-in-arms about what constitutes a "game," so I'm not gonna touch that one.

In the world of interactive media as a whole? They occupy a space between novels and traditional video games. They are novel-like in the sense that the primary purpose is to take in a story through text. They are like a game in that they can have a participatory element from the reader (via branching storytelling) and use electronic pictures/sound to illustrate the story that is told in the text.

I think the bad rap that VNs get comes from the popularity of the genre (specifically the particular H-word sub-genre) in Japan. Like video games get a bad rap in the non-gaming world because they think CoD kiddies, GTA, and Duke Nukem are representative of the genre as a whole, the VN gets a bad rap because people unfamiliar with the genre gravitate toward the idea that it's nothing but a medium for animu pervs (even though it's not).

 

[CaitSeith]

snip

They border the line of interactive media and videogame. It's really the gameplay which differences games like "Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney" or "Hatoful Boyfriend" from novels where your only interactivity is the equivalent of turning pages...

Spoiler: ...or something like this

...or something like this interactive Youtube video:

 

[Scars Unseen]

Ah, so nice to see people fall back on the old 'I've played one or two and didn't like them personally therefore they are all shit' argument. Always warms the heart.

Here's another heart-warmer: people who dismiss others' opinions unless they've played 20 games in a genre that hasn't held any appeal to them since game #1. It's the "it gets better 20 hours into the game" argument of excellence. Dude, there's only so much shit I'll wade through before I give up on a game/genre. I've played through about 10 visual novels and didn't like any of them very much. How many more before I'm allowed to criticize, again?

There is a difference between not liking something and something being bad. There are ways to express one's opinion without insulting other people in the thread(including the OP) by dismissing an entire genre/format they like as trash. You aren't using them. So yes, I dismiss your opinion because it is poorly thought out and dismissive not only of the format, but of those who enjoy it. And yes, you really aren't qualified to claim critical authority of something you don't play, particularly when, of the games you listed, only one is an actual visual novel, and that an amateur work that is decent but overrated when compared to its contemporaries.

I don't play many FPS games. I play no sports games. The fighting genre is something that gets really boring to me after a few hours of play. I don't criticize the merit of any of them. I say I don't like them. I say they hold no appeal to me. But I don't insult people who do like them by claiming that they would be better off in a trash bin. Because not only would that make me an asshole, it would make me a closed minded asshole who can only see the merit in things that interest me personally. And while I don't particularly care if people like me or not, I try not to disappoint myself.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Ah, so nice to see people fall back on the old 'I've played one or two and didn't like them personally therefore they are all shit' argument. Always warms the heart.

Here's another heart-warmer: people who dismiss others' opinions unless they've played 20 games in a genre that hasn't held any appeal to them since game #1. It's the "it gets better 20 hours into the game" argument of excellence. Dude, there's only so much shit I'll wade through before I give up on a game/genre. I've played through about 10 visual novels and didn't like any of them very much. How many more before I'm allowed to criticize, again?

There is a difference between not liking something and something being bad. There are ways to express one's opinion without insulting other people in the thread(including the OP) by dismissing an entire genre/format they like as trash. You aren't using them. So yes, I dismiss your opinion because it is poorly thought out and dismissive not only of the format, but of those who enjoy it. And yes, you really aren't qualified to claim critical authority of something you don't play, particularly when, of the games you listed, only one is an actual visual novel, and that an amateur work that is decent but overrated when compared to its contemporaries.

I don't play many FPS games. I play no sports games. The fighting genre is something that gets really boring to me after a few hours of play. I don't criticize the merit of any of them. I say I don't like them. I say they hold no appeal to me. But I don't insult people who do like them by claiming that they would be better off in a trash bin. Because not only would that make me an asshole, it would make me a closed minded asshole who can only see the merit in things that interest me personally. And while I don't particularly care if people like me or not, I try not to disappoint myself.

It's simple: I don't consider visual novels games, which by definition require interactivty. What little "interactivity" there is, it's on par with turning the pages of a picture book, and not a very good one at that. The majority are about getting a girlfriend. Text is either description of the things you're already looking at, or dialogue, which is usually very poorly written. My point is, the people who actually know how to write don't make games to get their point across. Cormac McCarthy, Thomas Pynchon, Michel Houellebecq, Paul Auster, Chuck Palahniuk, J. M. Coetzee: they don't make digital picture books to tell stories. Because their primary concern isn't crafting an empowering teenage fantasy akin to Choose Your Own Adventure.

That is my informed opinion. I don't respect visual novels as games to begin with, nor do I respect their lamentable attempts at literature.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Ah, so nice to see people fall back on the old 'I've played one or two and didn't like them personally therefore they are all shit' argument. Always warms the heart.

Here's another heart-warmer: people who dismiss others' opinions unless they've played 20 games in a genre that hasn't held any appeal to them since game #1. It's the "it gets better 20 hours into the game" argument of excellence. Dude, there's only so much shit I'll wade through before I give up on a game/genre. I've played through about 10 visual novels and didn't like any of them very much. How many more before I'm allowed to criticize, again?

There is a difference between not liking something and something being bad. There are ways to express one's opinion without insulting other people in the thread(including the OP) by dismissing an entire genre/format they like as trash. You aren't using them. So yes, I dismiss your opinion because it is poorly thought out and dismissive not only of the format, but of those who enjoy it. And yes, you really aren't qualified to claim critical authority of something you don't play, particularly when, of the games you listed, only one is an actual visual novel, and that an amateur work that is decent but overrated when compared to its contemporaries.

I don't play many FPS games. I play no sports games. The fighting genre is something that gets really boring to me after a few hours of play. I don't criticize the merit of any of them. I say I don't like them. I say they hold no appeal to me. But I don't insult people who do like them by claiming that they would be better off in a trash bin. Because not only would that make me an asshole, it would make me a closed minded asshole who can only see the merit in things that interest me personally. And while I don't particularly care if people like me or not, I try not to disappoint myself.

It's simple: I don't consider visual novels games, which by definition require interactivty. What little "interactivity" there is, it's on par with turning the pages of a picture book, and not a very good one at that. The majority are about getting a girlfriend. Text is either description of the things you're already looking at, or dialogue, which is usually very poorly written. My point is, the people who actually know how to write don't make games to get their point across. Cormac McCarthy, Thomas Pynchon, Michel Houellebecq, Paul Auster, Chuck Palahniuk, J. M. Coetzee: they don't make digital picture books to tell stories. Because their primary concern isn't crafting an empowering teenage fantasy akin to Choose Your Own Adventure.

That is my informed opinion. I don't respect visual novels as games to begin with, nor do I respect their lamentable attempts at literature.

Fair enough, and a much better argument than you previously used, though I wouldn't go so far as to call it "informed." Basically:

I repeat Sturgeon?s Revelation, which was wrung out of me after twenty years of wearying defense of science fiction against attacks of people who used the worst examples of the field for ammunition, and whose conclusion was that ninety percent of SF is crud.

Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc. is crap. In other words, the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crap is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artforms.

Apply that to your own reasoning, and you'll see why I hold little regard for your opinion.

 

[Fox12]

Their place in the gaming world? A garbage can. Visual Novels are a freakin' cancer. Not only they cost around 100 bucks each, but also they have nothing to compensate for this ridiculous price. Here's what you usually get for your money's worth:

- A few hours of piss-poor writing,
- Characters that are either one dimensional cardboard cutouts, or overly exagerrated anime tropes,
- At least three sex scenes (even when you buy a non-hentai oriented novel; looks almost like they have to meet some kind of T&A quota)
- Some pretty pictures to look at, while you experience the aforementioned shitty writing.

I really don't want to say this but I think you are lying.

Having done some research, several visual novels like Clannad and Fate/Stay Night are free to download and even VNs on Steam like World End Economica are around 13 dollars (steam page for reference [http://store.steampowered.com/app/269250/])

In addition, to use that old cliche, Sturgeon's Law, 90% of most things are crap so yes most VNs will be stupid, horribly written, and fanservice laden while the rest will actually be good in terms of writing and characterization.

Either you had a bad VN experience or there is an ulterior movie for posting

It's true, Visual Novels killed her parents. Now she knows that the only justice *puts on glasses* is the justice you take.

*inception noise*

Seriously, though, it's not nice to call someone a liar. Imported VN are really expensive, but if they're localized and downloaded then they'd be fairly priced. I'm curious enough to get into the genre, but I'm wary, as I know a lot of the material is, frankly, rather poor in quality. If good ones are released then I'd buy them, though. The sex and T&A can be a turn off, depending on how it's handled. I'm not a fanservice person myself, and Japan DOES have a thing for underage girls....

I am curious about that Saya No Uta game by Urobuchi, though.

 

[Entitled]

I'm curious enough to get into the genre, but I'm wary, as I know a lot of the material is, frankly, rather poor in quality. If good ones are released then I'd buy them, though.

Actually, fan translations are a lot better proof of quality than official translations.

Companies like Mangagamer have a habit of translating works like "Cum on! Bukkake Ranch!", or "Ultimate☆Boob Wars!! ~Big Breasts vs Flat Chests~". (Neither of these titles are made up.)

On the other hand, if some devoted otaku bastards bothered to translate hundreds of thousands of words for free, you can bet there is something in the work that inspires fannish devotion at least in some people, and they don't just want to share their erection with the world.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Their place in the gaming world? A garbage can. Visual Novels are a freakin' cancer. Not only they cost around 100 bucks each, but also they have nothing to compensate for this ridiculous price. Here's what you usually get for your money's worth:

- A few hours of piss-poor writing,
- Characters that are either one dimensional cardboard cutouts, or overly exagerrated anime tropes,
- At least three sex scenes (even when you buy a non-hentai oriented novel; looks almost like they have to meet some kind of T&A quota)
- Some pretty pictures to look at, while you experience the aforementioned shitty writing.

I really don't want to say this but I think you are lying.

Having done some research, several visual novels like Clannad and Fate/Stay Night are free to download and even VNs on Steam like World End Economica are around 13 dollars (steam page for reference [http://store.steampowered.com/app/269250/])

In addition, to use that old cliche, Sturgeon's Law, 90% of most things are crap so yes most VNs will be stupid, horribly written, and fanservice laden while the rest will actually be good in terms of writing and characterization.

Either you had a bad VN experience or there is an ulterior movie for posting

It's true, Visual Novels killed her parents. Now she knows that the only justice *puts on glasses* is the justice you take.

*inception noise*

Seriously, though, it's not nice to call someone a liar. Imported VN are really expensive, but if they're localized and downloaded then they'd be fairly priced. I'm curious enough to get into the genre, but I'm wary, as I know a lot of the material is, frankly, rather poor in quality. If good ones are released then I'd buy them, though. The sex and T&A can be a turn off, depending on how it's handled. I'm not a fanservice person myself, and Japan DOES have a thing for underage girls....

One problem with visual novels in the west is that far more cheaply made nukiges(visual novels that focus entirely on sex and nothing else) have been licensed for official release than quality products. That's finally beginning to change, but there will always be more crap than gold out there(just like in with anything else: see above). My advice would be to go to Reddit's VN suggestion subreddit [http://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovelsuggest] and post what you're looking for. Be warned: even some of the best VNs out there have poorly written sex scenes in them. It's a problem, as I mentioned before. Fortunately, these can be quickly skipped through, and some VNs have versions without them(e.g. the Realta Nua version of Fate/Stay Night).

One popular example that is completely sex free is Steins;Gate. It wouldn't be a bad place to start either, though you will need a guide to get the true ending. Also, anything by Key is going to be safe in that regard, though the only thing by Key that is officially translated right now is Planetarian(Clannad's localization recently got Kickstarted though).

 

[NeutralDrow]

Color me legitimately surprised that this thread went sour so quickly. There was little-to-no flaming in the last few I've seen here.

Anyway, barring a few that are indisputably games (Princess Waltz, Kagetsu Tohya) or have some gameplay elements in them (Symphonic Rain, Dangan Ronpa), I definitely acknowledge that most of them are borderline. Just by personal definition, something that allows interaction with the game world and lets the consumer control it to any extent is a game...though it's an easier definition to apply to something with long story branches, labyrinthine affection point systems, or a large number of endings (like the Type-Moon games or The Sagara Family), than it is for something with very little chance for the player to affect the world (like Heart de Roommate or Katawa Shoujo).

Their place in the gaming world? Probably off in a little corner with the rest of the less-defined interactive fiction works, which I like to call the Cool Kids' Table. Less vacuously, if they could find just the perfect spot where I'd be left well enough alone playing them, but they were popular enough to at least give everyone else context to understand my liking for them, I'd be very happy (wait, did I say less vacuously?). It's why I'll always be at least grateful to Katawa Shoujo, no matter how much its fanbase puts me off.
Should probably clarify that I love that game.

Incidentally, there are visual novels that are literally just text (Planetarian, Higurashi, True Remembrance...), but they're more properly termed kinetic novels (Key's label for them) or sound novels (Ryukishi's term for his works). I wouldn't call them games.

Companies like Mangagamer have a habit of translating works like "Cum on! Bukkake Ranch!", or "Ultimate☆Boob Wars!! ~Big Breasts vs Flat Chests~". (Neither of these titles are made up.)

It was a bit disheartening to find they do translate that sort of stuff. But there is still a market for those things.

Besides, they also gave me Da Capo, Edelweiss, Shuffle, Higurashi, ef, Deardrops, and a bunch of other stuff I have high hopes for, so I extend them the same gratitude I gave Peach Princess.

Also, anything by Key is going to be safe in that regard, though the only thing by Key that is officially translated right now is Planetarian(Clannad's localization recently got Kickstarted though).

...oh, right, that's the other stumbling block, finding the ones that are officially translated. Not that it stops me from recommending Kanon to people (or Air, if it's as good as its promising so far), but it does cast a bit of a pall. >_>


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Look, Captcha, just because I live in SoCal...

 

[oZode]

Interactive mediums don't need to have game mechanics.

Is a medium.

There is no reason you gotta have game mechanics to have interactivity. Interactive/visual novels really just seem like a evolution of the choose your own adventure story. How interactive a story heavy game might get is beyond me though.

That being said it could be cool to play a roguelike RPG where what you say/do could have wed redding shit happen to you depending on your choices. Probably already exists, but I haven;t heard of it.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

visual novel's place in gaming does not exist. Visual novel's place in the realm of novels could be a real topic in my opinion, but I do not think they would fare too well. I like reading graphic novels, and I think it would be great if the writing in visual novels was better..... but that has not been my experience. My experience has been that the writing is awful. The medium does have potential though,