Warhammer 40k MMO balance issues?

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loc978

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Playing as a Mekboy and making all your own equipment would be fun, I think. Especially if you could make a huge, multi-weaponed rig around yourself that eventually becomes a sort of exoskeleton with cannons, axes and machine guns sticking out in every direction.
An ork can dream...

But yeah, there are ways of balancing out the marines. I rather like the Old Republic method of making "lesser" classes start off as being among the best of the best, while the naturally overpowered ones start out as close to run of the mill as their type gets.
 

Sangnz

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Gameplay before cannon always.
Cannon should be more focused on the interactions, dialogue, gear, architecture etc than the mechanics of how an ork took out a space marine.
Personally I would LOVE it if guardsmen were a "pet" class where you get one or two "pet" guardsmen you can gear out as support.
 

IBlackKiteI

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Xzi said:
It's an MMO...the canon will be massacred within the first two weeks of development.

Not that this is necessarily a bad thing. Balance and polish need to take a front seat, otherwise the game will decline quickly. That's the way the genre works.
Exactly it. Sacrifice canon for playability, but not so much that they don't forget just what 40k is all about.

I'm not looking forward to Dark Millenium much as I simply strongly believe that a Warhammer 40k MMO would properly work, for reasons I probably shouldn't get into or I won't stop. However on the subject of balance it would be quite possible to find a nice compromise without ruining the game or fluff too much, like in DoW 1 individual Space Marines are basically regular infantry with more health and some effective upgrades and don't come close to what they are in fluff, but it doesn't matter so much because it's what allows the game to be great.

EDIT: I've just looked at the other responses on this thread so far and I just wanted to say to anyone who actually sees this, quit assuming all that shit will happen.
 

Azure9

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I know some 40k lore but i mostly gained it from dawn of war and firewarrior. Space marines in those games were really strong but they are not the god like figures that the lore books are portraying them as. Infact in fire warrior you were able to kill a space marine one on one and you were just an average tau with an average gun.
 

Sordak

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the space mariens are already nerfed in the tabletop.

probably higher level non space marine humans will have NPC soldiers to help them or they will end up as Inquisitors or anything else equal badass
 

alrekr

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Neverhoodian said:
An early press release stated that allegiances would be split down two ways, Order and Destruction. This caused my inner 40k fanboy to rage, as alliances between factions is nearly unheard of. Yes the Imperium has joined forces with the Eldar and Tau on occasion to fight a common enemy, but once that's taken care of they go right back to slaughtering each other.
Well an Elder alliance is sort of cannon (see the Illuminati http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Illuminati)

The biggest problem is Necrons: Their goal is to end all life and thus destroy the warp. Okay there's the stuff about the machine god being a C'tan and similar theory about the Hive Mind and the eldar laughing god. But still they opposse everyone. Necrons should not be playable.

Again Orks are problem as they often help either side if the chance for WAAAARRG is good. For example help IG as they provied ships for them to fly to corrupt planet. They could however be chaos orks.

Also what about the fact that all the chaos gods bicker and fight (excpet Nurgle he's too nice)

Space Marines and their Chaos brethern should be like Jedi in the old version of SWG: rare.

Guardsmen do some epic stuff on par with marines; look at the fething Rogue Traders or that guy who stole from the gakking Black Libary.
 

Testosticore

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alrekr said:
For example help IG as they provied ships for them to fly to corrupt planet. They could however be chaos orks.
Im actually 90% sure Orks could never be turned to chaos. A] theyre too dumb B] They'd see any chaos power as just another fight and C] Orks dont follow no body into battle who aint another ork!

Anyways, I cant see there being more races than the big four. That being Imperium, Chaos, Eldar and Orks. Tyranids wouldnt work because the sheer number of NPC's surrounding a Warrior multiplied by the thousands of people playing as nids sounds like it would be rigged to hell, or at the very least clog up the server with lag. Necrons routinely one hit everything, so thats out of the question. They MIGHT add tau, but their technology is crazy advanced [most of their weapons being plasma based] and would have to be nerfed to hell.
 

alrekr

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Testosticore said:
I'm sorry you've unleased the 40k fanboy...


Orks can be corrupted by chaos just like everything else (except those who have survived a corruption and the sons of the Emperor but thats another story for another day). White Dwarf even had a segment on chaos orks.
Also Orks have been know to follow people if its what the warboss sayz and if it leads to best possible WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG.

NEXT:

Tau weapons are advanced but not overpowered. There still like IG flashlights against Space Marines and highly ineffective against chaos spawn as energy weapons tend to burn rather then do rend and tear damage.

Necrons and Nids should only appear as some form of npc mobs and what not. In fact they should be in the game; just not playable.
 

Testosticore

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alrekr said:
Testosticore said:
I'm sorry you've unleased the 40k fanboy...


Orks can be corrupted by chaos just like everything else (except those who have survived a corruption and the sons of the Emperor but thats another story for another day). White Dwarf even had a segment on chaos orks.
Also Orks have been know to follow people if its what the warboss sayz and if it leads to best possible WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG.

NEXT:

Tau weapons are advanced but not overpowered. There still like IG flashlights against Space Marines and highly ineffective against chaos spawn as energy weapons tend to burn rather then do rend and tear damage.

Necrons and Nids should only appear as some form of npc mobs and what not. In fact they should be in the game; just not playable.
Haha, Like I said, 90% sure. Good lookin' out, brother.
While orks have been known to work alongside another race like IG or Eldar, I dont think they'd actually fight side by side.

Im saying that tau would have starting weapons that would demolish early level everything and that could make for more balance issues since Gaurdsmen dont really stand a chance against fire warriors.

I can get behind the NPC mob of 'Nids, kind of like a wild life thing going on like the Kobalts in WoW. But Necrons couldnt work, because they dont really die, take massive amounts of punishments and have possibly the strongest weapons in the entirety of the 40k lore.
 

darthotaku

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personally I'll probably stick to playing the table top game once I can afford the money and time to buy, build and paint an army. unless they solve all these problems that have been mentioned here it'll just be another wow ripoff and like most of the 40k video games i'll just pretend it isn't cannon.

that being said, if they can make it the perfect warhammer experience I'd be as happy as a space marine standing on a pile of heratic corpses.
 

alrekr

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Testosticore said:
But Necrons couldnt work, because they dont really die, take massive amounts of punishments and have possibly the strongest weapons in the entirety of the 40k lore.
They sound like a good high level raid/dungeon mob to me
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Mirror Cage said:
I wonder if the canon expressly states that the other races are that inferior or if we just assume that the space marines are so much more powerful because they're the ones that the canon tends to focus on...
That really isn't it. The rules themselves are what make a Space Marine so very powerful. To start with, your standard tactical marine's armor will outright deflect 2/3 shots that manage to make contact (with exceptions of course). A terminator ignores 5/6 shots in the same fashion. Even should something penetrate the armor, their toughness is higher than most other troops in the game. Combined this means that it simply takes a lot of firepower (both in terms of weight in fire and quality of fire) to cause a casualty.

If you go from there you find that marines are incredibly skilled with their weapons and, as such, have incredible accuracy. Their standard weapon, the Bolter, is powerful enough that there is little in the game that it is incapable of damaging (though there is a great deal that it is unlikely to damage). To put this in perspective, most other armies rely on specialized weapons to have any hope of destroying certain units.

Finally, you have to understand that Space Marines are an army that is literally capable of fighting to the last man and are, if I remember right at any way, outright impossible to break and difficult to pin.

Simply put, a unit of even basic marines is more effective than even the specialist units of other armies and on a model per model basis, marines are as tough and lethal as the heroes of other armies. Their one weakness is simply that they are incredibly expensive and as such you will always be outnumbered by a significant margin. In an even numbers match, few armies could even hope to stand toe to toe against them.

Canonically, they are even more effective. A single company (about 100 marines) is considered enough to pacify a system of planets. A full chapter (1000 marines) can lay waste to a sector of planets.
 

Testosticore

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darthotaku said:
unless they solve all these problems that have been mentioned here it'll just be another wow ripoff and like most of the 40k video games i'll just pretend it isn't cannon.
This is going to be a 3rd person shooter with lots of vehicular combat and god damn SPACE MARINES! It might be poorly balanced, but it's definitely going to take a few steps in a new direction.

Also, DoW2 is pretty damn close to Canon. Space marines kick ass, nids are without number, orks are gud 'n orky and Eldar are fancy.

Haha, just sayin, brother. I dont think you can make a 40k game identicle to WoW even if you tried.
 

Slycne

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I imagine it will rely on balancing similar to what Warhammer Online did. None of the classes are the cannon fodder or mooks from the tabletop game and they are instead drawn from the elite and specialized units.
 

Soluncreed

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Mirror Cage said:
Tyrannid: Thermagaunt >> Warrior Brood
You mean I can't become a Carnifex? Awwwwww.

On another note, if you start out as the weakest in each race,(termagants, guardsmen, firewarrior, etc.) will you be able to branch out into different specialized versions? Like the tyranids would be able to advance into a genestealer or broodlord, or, if they desire, a venomthrope or zoanthrope. Anyone know if it's something like that?
 

darthotaku

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Testosticore said:
darthotaku said:
unless they solve all these problems that have been mentioned here it'll just be another wow ripoff and like most of the 40k video games i'll just pretend it isn't cannon.
This is going to be a 3rd person shooter with lots of vehicular combat and god damn SPACE MARINES! It might be poorly balanced, but it's definitely going to take a few steps in a new direction.

Also, DoW2 is pretty damn close to Canon. Space marines kick ass, nids are without number, orks are gud 'n orky and Eldar are fancy.

Haha, just sayin, brother. I dont think you can make a 40k game identicle to WoW even if you tried.
Dawn of War 2 was a pretty good game, and many things about it did fit in what I would expect of the 40k world. However, it felt like almost every other rts game i've played. and that is the problem with most 40k games in my opinion. take Fire Warrior for example; it took the cool backstory, detailed social structure, and awesome technological power of the tau and made it into a generic fps with terrible controls, god aweful writing, and that completely ignored everything that made the tau interesting in the first place.
I won't be the first person to mention that the new Space Marines game seems to resemble Gears of War. and that brings me to the point of this little rant: Warhammer videogames are dumbed down so they're not as big a risk. they are made to resemble the more popular games in their genres. Fire warrior=COD, Space Marine=Gears, Dawn of War=generic rts. I'd love it to not be so, but if the pattern continues than 40k online=WOW. the people making these games don't care about warhammer. they care about the money the name can bring in.
 

Testosticore

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darthotaku said:
Testosticore said:
darthotaku said:
unless they solve all these problems that have been mentioned here it'll just be another wow ripoff and like most of the 40k video games i'll just pretend it isn't cannon.
This is going to be a 3rd person shooter with lots of vehicular combat and god damn SPACE MARINES! It might be poorly balanced, but it's definitely going to take a few steps in a new direction.

Also, DoW2 is pretty damn close to Canon. Space marines kick ass, nids are without number, orks are gud 'n orky and Eldar are fancy.

Haha, just sayin, brother. I dont think you can make a 40k game identicle to WoW even if you tried.
Dawn of War 2 was a pretty good game, and many things about it did fit in what I would expect of the 40k world. However, it felt like almost every other rts game i've played. and that is the problem with most 40k games in my opinion. take Fire Warrior for example; it took the cool backstory, detailed social structure, and awesome technological power of the tau and made it into a generic fps with terrible controls, god aweful writing, and that completely ignored everything that made the tau interesting in the first place.
I won't be the first person to mention that the new Space Marines game seems to resemble Gears of War. and that brings me to the point of this little rant: Warhammer videogames are dumbed down so they're not as big a risk. they are made to resemble the more popular games in their genres. Fire warrior=COD, Space Marine=Gears, Dawn of War=generic rts. I'd love it to not be so, but if the pattern continues than 40k online=WOW. the people making these games don't care about warhammer. they care about the money the name can bring in.
Youre makin lots of good points, brother, especially the whole 'Fire Warrior' fiasco which was just a cash in on a popular franchise. But I have to disagree about the Dawn of War series. Now, fandom aside, the first game was a whole lot less canonicle but the wars felt very big and alot more combat focused which opposed the methods established by popular titles like Starcraft which largely revolved around resource control. It really was about making an army and smashing them together. Now, I admit, it did feel like they were just using 40k as a medium to sell their game, but the game felt fresh and the money was well earned.

Come Dawn of War 2, the game has completely evolved. It feels less like a cash in and more like a game developed by people who genuinly enjoy the experience that the Warhammer 40k universe has to offer. It took RTS into a completely different direction. There is little resource collection and absolutely NO base building and focused on using a small amount of units in the smartest way possible. It wasnt perfect, but I think come dawn of war 3, the game will be as close to perfect its gonna get.

But youre entitled to your opinions, brother, and they will be respected.
 

fix-the-spade

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Testosticore said:
If youre familiar with the universe, you know that Space Marines are genetically perfected war machines
I wouldn't worry too much about that.

As far as gameplay is concerned, the table top game ignores the lore completely already, so does Dawn of war. I can't see this MMO doing anything differently.

A few years ago Games Workshop (or possibly Forge World, I forget) released a 'canon accurate' stats sheet for Space Marines. Two tactical squads would have had about the same points value (but substantially more killing power and survivability) than a 50'000 point Ork or Tyranid army. Not sure where, but if you search for the Space Marine 'Hollywood stats' you can probably find it.
 

Testosticore

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fix-the-spade said:
Testosticore said:
If youre familiar with the universe, you know that Space Marines are genetically perfected war machines
I wouldn't worry too much about that.

As far as gameplay is concerned, the table top game ignores the lore completely already, so does Dawn of war. I can't see this MMO doing anything differently.

A few years ago Games Workshop (or possibly Forge World, I forget) released a 'canon accurate' stats sheet for Space Marines. Two tactical squads would have had about the same points value (but substantially more killing power and survivability) than a 50'000 point Ork or Tyranid army. Not sure where, but if you search for the Space Marine 'Hollywood stats' you can probably find it.
Even Table Top rules would make them vastly more superior than most. Tactical marine armor deflect 2/3 shots fired at them.
 

fix-the-spade

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Testosticore said:
Even Table Top rules would make them vastly more superior than most. Tactical marine armor deflect 2/3 shots fired at them.
That's ok, just field weapons that can ignore armour saves or toughness.

Or better yet, characters who have instant death attacks.

Or even better yet, field artillery with large blast weapons...