Warhammer 40k vs starwars... is there any possible way for SW to win?
- Thread starter Zeke the Freak
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SW vs chaos, The influence of the warp on darth sideus will drive him to join chaos or destroy every SW faction that stands against him and that will either A) kill out the empire, and the rest is easy pickins or B) Kill off the other factions and leave the tatered remains of the Empire to do battle with Chaos.
Obviously you do not know 40K but you just know DOW. List of things that kick-assCortheya said:
-Virus Bombs drop to planet kills everything in planet nothing left to kill kills each other.
Say good bye to Kamino.
-Space Marines the clone lasers would do nothing. They could defeat the clones with their bare-fists.
-Tyranids in a matter of days a swarm can over-whelm a system of planets.
-40K have death stars of thier own called "black fortresses"
-The dark gods use em to take over the clones.
-Say kill each other to clones
-Send every single race to each part of the SW galaxy a clear win to
40K Even if you had a death star we'd just own it with our awesome starships!
I find it odd that everyone in this thread is comparing the Star Wars movies where the Empire was pretty much forced to be shit by good old George Lucas to EVERYTHING you can find from the WH40K universe.
If you dredged up stuff from the SW books you wouldn't be on a 1980s sort of budget for technology. I mean when you can make a little metal figurine of a city sized mech rather than having to put it up on screen looking believable it frees you up a little, don't you think?
Perhaps a little less bias when looking up facts?
Oh and:
If you dredged up stuff from the SW books you wouldn't be on a 1980s sort of budget for technology. I mean when you can make a little metal figurine of a city sized mech rather than having to put it up on screen looking believable it frees you up a little, don't you think?
Perhaps a little less bias when looking up facts?
Oh and:
That's retarded in more ways than I care to count. The surface of the sun (photosphere) is about 6000c, pack some SPF9001 sun cream eh mate?loquerion said:
Ur lets see... play them as tabletop - droids vs Space Marines. I play the droids... and have successfully lost on every single match >.>
Communication, vox, transportation, battle barges and cruisers of all sorts, and Thunderhawks. SW loses, and yeah, I think I saw that Storm Trooper too. lol.Zeke the Freak said:
ok geeks one and all, we need to step back from the awsomeness and take a hard look at this again.
from a truly 'realistic' point of view this gents whole post and the specific part im quoting really is the key to this argument.
the 40K boys have the unquestioned ability to dominate any ground campaign they are invovled in. id also argue that the Empire really doesnt know how to wage a huge galatic scale war. after all they didnt even have a standing army right up untill the clone wars most of their political structure came not from conquest but from ........ well, politics. 40Ks comes from war. the Imperum doesnt fight wars, the wars have formed an Imperium. key but importiant differance.
but i think the most TELLING point is the ones this person made about the space fleets. looking at our real world history of wars, those nations that had the ability too dominate the oceans dominated (eventualy) the wars they were in. hell a piddly ass little nothing of a nation like Great Britian became by far THEE dominant power on the globe in the 1800's simply because of their navy. both France, austria, and prussia (later germany) had MUCH larger armys and much better traned and equipted to boot. but as one British hero once said something too the effect that Germanys army sure is powerful and was certian to dominate the British millitary, but for the simple fact that they would have to board ships to reach the battle field.
the most awsome land army you can name is limited if you cant get them to the planet you need to be fighting on.
im a big fan of 40K, but im also a big fan of 'what ifs' and im pretty well versed in the theory of war. one of the first things that has stood out for me about 40K from the begining, LONG before this topic even came up was its relitave weakness in space fleets compared to other sci-fie. now if you take the empires fleet, give it too the hands of Thrawn, then its more than likley there would be no contest. all the IG and space marines would still be capable of crusing any land forces deployed against them, but they would be in effect locked up on individual planets while thrawn controlled the space situation and could crush the 40K boys in detail one planet at a time.
the long and short of it is, if the 40K fleets cant gain dominance over the empire fleets than its game over for the Imperium eventualy, if they CAN beat the empires fleet than its game over for the Empire, in a much shorter span of time.
give all of Therumancer's points in the first paragraph i just dont see the 40k boys overcoming this epic advantage of space controll the empire would have. his other points abo0ut out producing the Imperium arent really that relivent i would think. the lack of knowhow about how too wage a galaxy wide total campaign just from a logistics point of view would tend to offset any small production increases the empire may enjoy in my opinion.
anyhow, to all of you that say 'tehis is teh stewpids', piss off. its fun to think about the 'what ifs' with this kinda stuff and even those that are in dispute are laughing about the subject. the only drags around here are those that dont want to join in in the spirit of the topic.
Therumancer said:
from a truly 'realistic' point of view this gents whole post and the specific part im quoting really is the key to this argument.
the 40K boys have the unquestioned ability to dominate any ground campaign they are invovled in. id also argue that the Empire really doesnt know how to wage a huge galatic scale war. after all they didnt even have a standing army right up untill the clone wars most of their political structure came not from conquest but from ........ well, politics. 40Ks comes from war. the Imperum doesnt fight wars, the wars have formed an Imperium. key but importiant differance.
but i think the most TELLING point is the ones this person made about the space fleets. looking at our real world history of wars, those nations that had the ability too dominate the oceans dominated (eventualy) the wars they were in. hell a piddly ass little nothing of a nation like Great Britian became by far THEE dominant power on the globe in the 1800's simply because of their navy. both France, austria, and prussia (later germany) had MUCH larger armys and much better traned and equipted to boot. but as one British hero once said something too the effect that Germanys army sure is powerful and was certian to dominate the British millitary, but for the simple fact that they would have to board ships to reach the battle field.
the most awsome land army you can name is limited if you cant get them to the planet you need to be fighting on.
im a big fan of 40K, but im also a big fan of 'what ifs' and im pretty well versed in the theory of war. one of the first things that has stood out for me about 40K from the begining, LONG before this topic even came up was its relitave weakness in space fleets compared to other sci-fie. now if you take the empires fleet, give it too the hands of Thrawn, then its more than likley there would be no contest. all the IG and space marines would still be capable of crusing any land forces deployed against them, but they would be in effect locked up on individual planets while thrawn controlled the space situation and could crush the 40K boys in detail one planet at a time.
the long and short of it is, if the 40K fleets cant gain dominance over the empire fleets than its game over for the Imperium eventualy, if they CAN beat the empires fleet than its game over for the Empire, in a much shorter span of time.
give all of Therumancer's points in the first paragraph i just dont see the 40k boys overcoming this epic advantage of space controll the empire would have. his other points abo0ut out producing the Imperium arent really that relivent i would think. the lack of knowhow about how too wage a galaxy wide total campaign just from a logistics point of view would tend to offset any small production increases the empire may enjoy in my opinion.
anyhow, to all of you that say 'tehis is teh stewpids', piss off. its fun to think about the 'what ifs' with this kinda stuff and even those that are in dispute are laughing about the subject. the only drags around here are those that dont want to join in in the spirit of the topic.
Did everyone forget Ravenor? He could just overtake the mind of a Jedi, he could have them fight for him, he could do that to a LOT of Jedi, in fact, then there's his elite squad!
[Nerd] My personal opinion is:
Imperium of Man vs Star Wars
Fleets:
Imperium capital ships are ancient miles long space-cathedrals each, if equipped correctly capable of wiping out the population of a planet.
Empire capital ships (excluding the Death Star) are massive fighter-wing hangers, their size, if Videogames mean anything, is probably roughly comparable to the Imperium's ships in size, however looking at Battlefleet Gothic, the Imperium's ships are, class to class, better armed. The Star Wars ships however have many more fighters. In fleet actions, the Imperium and Star Wars are probably relatively even, untill the Imperiums sheer attrition wears in.
Hardware:
Imperium, military standard issue is the "Lasgun" it is one of the weakest weapons in the setting although writings describe it as a dangerous weapon capable of causing horrific wounds.
Star Wars standard issue is a similar "blaster" another energy weapon similar in character to the Lasgun, they do range in power however the standard issue weapon seems somewhat less powerful than a Lasgun.
Imperium exotic weapons range from the Bolter line of weapons, essentially high-powered ammunition weapons capable of killing people when shot through concrete walls. To C'Tan Phase weapons, which exist on multiple planes of existance and contain parts of "Star Vampire" gods, one of whom put the fear of death into every living thing in the galaxy.
Star Wars exotic weapons again vary, if EU is used then these range from an energy rifle capable of vapourising any living target, although it takes time to charge to that level of power. To light sabres, need I say more. There is LESS horrific weaponry though.
The Imperium's military vehicles range from relatively weak Tanks and APCS (Chimeras, Salamanders, Rhinos, Razorbacks) Through to main Battle (Leman Russ, Predator-And Varients) Artillery Units (Whirlwind Tanks, Basilisks) ungodly mostrasities (Baneblade Tanks, Land Raiders-And Varients) to the Titans, titans are giant mile high humungous mecha with guns that level cities (well, kinda).
By contrast Star Wars doesnt have that much, a few Battle Tanks and Scout Vehicles. The most noteable vehicle is the AT-AT, which is probably on a Par with some of the SMALLER titans, although its armament is not that impressive and I would place it roughly on the same threat level as a Baneblade.
Armies:
The Imperium has the Imperial guard, a redshirt army that epitomises the words "We have reserves". The Imperial guard has troops that range from barely trained conscripts equipped with a flashlight and a tee-shirt (Lasgun and Flak Jacket), to highly trained professionals, some of whom are in live fire exercises before they learn to read, equipped with all manner of things. The Guard are almost without number. Also important to note is the Guard come with a large backing of artillery and armour support.
The Imperium also has the Adeptus Astartes, or Space Marines. Supersoldiers trained from childhood, often recruited from the myriad "death worlds" that the Imperium owns. Each marine is a titanic killing machine engineered through surgery and genetic tampering into a superhuman. Standard issue Astartes equipment is Ceremite Power-Armour and a Boltgun. The armour, if we go true to books and the game "inquisitor" essentially makes Astartes walking tanks who, induvidually are more than a match for an Inquisitor (who again according to books and "inquisitor" are probably roughly comparable to Jedi and all but the most powerful Sith in power). The Astartes rank and file however are the least of them, from heroes wielding ancient weapons like Power-Swords to veterans equipped with Tactical Dreadnaught (Terminator) Armour, which by defalut COMES WITH a Power-Fist... which can punch though tank armour.
Initially there were 20 Legions of 10,000 Marines each, however after 10 of these "went rogue" they are now split into chapters of ~1,000 Marines each, there have been new foundings of chapters in the 10,000 years since their inception though.
The Star Wars factions essentially have either, Clone Armies, probably on a par with some of the better Imperial Guard Regiments, but almost certainly outnumbered by them. There is no Space Marine equivalent for the Star Wars galaxy.
Special People:
The Imperiums Inquisition is chock full of (often Psychic) special ops trained warrior priests, each equipped with anything the Imperium has to offer, from Power-Weapons to Power Armour. Each more than a match for a Jedi. In addition to the Inquisition each Space Marine chapter has its upper eschelons, centries old veterans with the creame of the equipment at their disposal and Librarians, with Librarians think a Space Marine... but theyre Psychic.
This is ignoring the sanctioned Psykers and Psykers in general. Psychic power in 40k can, on its own, destroy worlds, sanctioned Psykers aren't QUITE that powerful, having been limited so that they don't get "ideas", but again, one is probably a match for a more Force based Jedi.
Star Wars has the Jedi and the Sith, powerful, but matched by the Imperium.
World Destroying:
The Imperium has the Doctrine of Exterminatus, that is, destroying any planet that is too far gone for them to retake it, normally reserved for the worst Chaos or Tyranid incursions it tends to be part of a "Scorched Ground" tactic of denying the enemy your lost resources. The methods of Exterminatus vary, from Virus Bombs, that turn the entire biosphere into a virulent toxic mush, to Vortex Missiles that do something between the extremes of: Destabilizing the planet on a tectonic level turning them into uninhabitable balls of magma... to destroying them outright. The Imperium as a fairly large stockpile of these superweapons and uses them comparatively often.
Star Wars has the Death Star and the Vong creatures of deeply depressing.
and this is JUST the Imperium of Man, one of the factions of 40k and assuming that the Star Wars Galaxy united against it, bring in Chaos (primal refletions of sentient emotion that take the worst aspects of the Imperium and make them even more horrible) the Tyranids (Omnicidal and Omnivorous swarms that strip planets bare to feed its implied they ate at least one galaxy before coming to the 40k one), Orks (Lunatic 8ft alien monsters who can easily kill a human with their bare hands without trying... and if they expect a bit of technology to work... it will), the Tau (Space Communists with some of the settings most powerful guns), Necrons (Omnicidal Mechanoid serveants of the Star Vampires who never die, terminator style they are capable of re-assembly on and off the battlefield), Craftword Eldar (The Remains of an ancient race who once ruled the galaxy, their goal at the moment is to turn the collective soul-energy of their entire race into a God... to kill the God of Squick they created milennia ago), Dark Eldar (Evil pirate cousins of the Craftworld Eldar who have turned killing and torture into an art for, their jetbikers are so skilled they can cut peoples throats with their bikes.)
Of course what would actually happen is that most of the Star Wars Galaxy would immediatly ally with the Tau (or maybe Eldar... maybe) and the Imperium would end up fighting them along with everyone else in the crazy brawl it is at the moment.
[/nerd]
Imperium of Man vs Star Wars
Fleets:
Imperium capital ships are ancient miles long space-cathedrals each, if equipped correctly capable of wiping out the population of a planet.
Empire capital ships (excluding the Death Star) are massive fighter-wing hangers, their size, if Videogames mean anything, is probably roughly comparable to the Imperium's ships in size, however looking at Battlefleet Gothic, the Imperium's ships are, class to class, better armed. The Star Wars ships however have many more fighters. In fleet actions, the Imperium and Star Wars are probably relatively even, untill the Imperiums sheer attrition wears in.
Hardware:
Imperium, military standard issue is the "Lasgun" it is one of the weakest weapons in the setting although writings describe it as a dangerous weapon capable of causing horrific wounds.
Star Wars standard issue is a similar "blaster" another energy weapon similar in character to the Lasgun, they do range in power however the standard issue weapon seems somewhat less powerful than a Lasgun.
Imperium exotic weapons range from the Bolter line of weapons, essentially high-powered ammunition weapons capable of killing people when shot through concrete walls. To C'Tan Phase weapons, which exist on multiple planes of existance and contain parts of "Star Vampire" gods, one of whom put the fear of death into every living thing in the galaxy.
Star Wars exotic weapons again vary, if EU is used then these range from an energy rifle capable of vapourising any living target, although it takes time to charge to that level of power. To light sabres, need I say more. There is LESS horrific weaponry though.
The Imperium's military vehicles range from relatively weak Tanks and APCS (Chimeras, Salamanders, Rhinos, Razorbacks) Through to main Battle (Leman Russ, Predator-And Varients) Artillery Units (Whirlwind Tanks, Basilisks) ungodly mostrasities (Baneblade Tanks, Land Raiders-And Varients) to the Titans, titans are giant mile high humungous mecha with guns that level cities (well, kinda).
By contrast Star Wars doesnt have that much, a few Battle Tanks and Scout Vehicles. The most noteable vehicle is the AT-AT, which is probably on a Par with some of the SMALLER titans, although its armament is not that impressive and I would place it roughly on the same threat level as a Baneblade.
Armies:
The Imperium has the Imperial guard, a redshirt army that epitomises the words "We have reserves". The Imperial guard has troops that range from barely trained conscripts equipped with a flashlight and a tee-shirt (Lasgun and Flak Jacket), to highly trained professionals, some of whom are in live fire exercises before they learn to read, equipped with all manner of things. The Guard are almost without number. Also important to note is the Guard come with a large backing of artillery and armour support.
The Imperium also has the Adeptus Astartes, or Space Marines. Supersoldiers trained from childhood, often recruited from the myriad "death worlds" that the Imperium owns. Each marine is a titanic killing machine engineered through surgery and genetic tampering into a superhuman. Standard issue Astartes equipment is Ceremite Power-Armour and a Boltgun. The armour, if we go true to books and the game "inquisitor" essentially makes Astartes walking tanks who, induvidually are more than a match for an Inquisitor (who again according to books and "inquisitor" are probably roughly comparable to Jedi and all but the most powerful Sith in power). The Astartes rank and file however are the least of them, from heroes wielding ancient weapons like Power-Swords to veterans equipped with Tactical Dreadnaught (Terminator) Armour, which by defalut COMES WITH a Power-Fist... which can punch though tank armour.
Initially there were 20 Legions of 10,000 Marines each, however after 10 of these "went rogue" they are now split into chapters of ~1,000 Marines each, there have been new foundings of chapters in the 10,000 years since their inception though.
The Star Wars factions essentially have either, Clone Armies, probably on a par with some of the better Imperial Guard Regiments, but almost certainly outnumbered by them. There is no Space Marine equivalent for the Star Wars galaxy.
Special People:
The Imperiums Inquisition is chock full of (often Psychic) special ops trained warrior priests, each equipped with anything the Imperium has to offer, from Power-Weapons to Power Armour. Each more than a match for a Jedi. In addition to the Inquisition each Space Marine chapter has its upper eschelons, centries old veterans with the creame of the equipment at their disposal and Librarians, with Librarians think a Space Marine... but theyre Psychic.
This is ignoring the sanctioned Psykers and Psykers in general. Psychic power in 40k can, on its own, destroy worlds, sanctioned Psykers aren't QUITE that powerful, having been limited so that they don't get "ideas", but again, one is probably a match for a more Force based Jedi.
Star Wars has the Jedi and the Sith, powerful, but matched by the Imperium.
World Destroying:
The Imperium has the Doctrine of Exterminatus, that is, destroying any planet that is too far gone for them to retake it, normally reserved for the worst Chaos or Tyranid incursions it tends to be part of a "Scorched Ground" tactic of denying the enemy your lost resources. The methods of Exterminatus vary, from Virus Bombs, that turn the entire biosphere into a virulent toxic mush, to Vortex Missiles that do something between the extremes of: Destabilizing the planet on a tectonic level turning them into uninhabitable balls of magma... to destroying them outright. The Imperium as a fairly large stockpile of these superweapons and uses them comparatively often.
Star Wars has the Death Star and the Vong creatures of deeply depressing.
and this is JUST the Imperium of Man, one of the factions of 40k and assuming that the Star Wars Galaxy united against it, bring in Chaos (primal refletions of sentient emotion that take the worst aspects of the Imperium and make them even more horrible) the Tyranids (Omnicidal and Omnivorous swarms that strip planets bare to feed its implied they ate at least one galaxy before coming to the 40k one), Orks (Lunatic 8ft alien monsters who can easily kill a human with their bare hands without trying... and if they expect a bit of technology to work... it will), the Tau (Space Communists with some of the settings most powerful guns), Necrons (Omnicidal Mechanoid serveants of the Star Vampires who never die, terminator style they are capable of re-assembly on and off the battlefield), Craftword Eldar (The Remains of an ancient race who once ruled the galaxy, their goal at the moment is to turn the collective soul-energy of their entire race into a God... to kill the God of Squick they created milennia ago), Dark Eldar (Evil pirate cousins of the Craftworld Eldar who have turned killing and torture into an art for, their jetbikers are so skilled they can cut peoples throats with their bikes.)
Of course what would actually happen is that most of the Star Wars Galaxy would immediatly ally with the Tau (or maybe Eldar... maybe) and the Imperium would end up fighting them along with everyone else in the crazy brawl it is at the moment.
[/nerd]
You made some very nice points, but the Imperium has the firepower in their fleet. Sure, the Empire is faster, but a Star Destoyer against a Battle Barge and you get Swiss alloy and a content Space Marine crew. I think what the people arguing for WH40K are saying is, whoever has the better guns will do a better job of shooting things, -which is what it will boil down to-. Also, even with the Empire's fleets, the Imperium has some pretty fancy Anti-Spacecraft weaponry; on the ground, which does not bode well for invasions.Wyatt said:
Archaeology Hat said:
This is fun, lol.Wyatt said:
I think that its a draw, possibly. SW cant take a single planet of 40k because of their awsome ground forces and how well they're dug and and 40k cant launch a full scale atk on SW because of communication and transportation issues. Damn, this is getting heated.
40k could easily take the entire Star Wars Galaxy, if it unified. The Tyranids ALONE would probably make planet Chow out of it as a whole.
The Imperium probably couldn't (although with Marines... it becomes a slight possibility).
The Imperium probably couldn't (although with Marines... it becomes a slight possibility).
Exactly. WH40K has a better version of any weapon or alien SW has to offer, even robotics. They can keep C-3PO we'll just have our Necrons.Christemo said: