Warhammer 40k vs starwars... is there any possible way for SW to win?

[Enosh_]

Star Destroyers:
As I have said, the Star Destroyer is tiny in 40K terms.

Tiny, but heavily armed.

I haven't got all the scary math nonsense to hand, but from people who have sat down and worked out the physics of what we see both Star Destroyers and IoM ships do to each other in the fiction (game rules are useless for establishing capability of 40k technology, as by the admission of GW it's all way out for reasons of game balance. On tabletop, a single lasgun hit has a decent chance of killing a Space Marine, in fluff they laugh at flashlights), and to rocks and planets, they're about even for armament (For reference, one Star Destroyer could perform an Exterminatus level attack on an unshielded planet in a few hours).

40k ships tend to take a lot more punishment as a matter of course, but they're going to be far from immune to a Star Destroyer's weaponry, and concentrated fire will bring them down.

However, there's one significant advantage that Star Wars ships hold. Their FTL system is fast, reliable, and doesn't take a side trip though hell. A battlegroup of Star Wars ships would be able to engage at will, picking a larger IoM force apart by jumping in, hammering a ship into oblivion with concentrated force, and then being long gone before any kind of response could happen, even with a small jump out beyond the system edge, it would take weeks for the Imperium fleet to catch up.

On the strategic level, that becomes even more powerful, as the IoM would be kept in almost complete disarray by an opponent who could strike with the bulk of their force at opposite sides of Imperial space in a matter of days, whereas Warp travel might take months to do the same.

(Remember, the approach of Ghaszghull's fleet with his Hulks and Roks in the third Armageddon War took about four weeks to make planetfall after he was detected at system edge, and there were only one or two imperial warships able to get into range to attack it, and they were insystem to start with, hyperspace in Star Wars can cross the galaxy in a matter of hours).

What this largely means is that the overwhelming disparity in ground combat power is rendered irrelevant, because the forces of the Imperium of Man can't ever pin the Galactic Empire down to a decent ground engagement, and they're losing materiel and transport capacity in space all the time to an opponent with equivalent firepower but immensely superior strategic mobility.

yes raiding works up to a point, given that the goal is "conquer the IoM" not "annoy the shit out of the IoM", you will need to take the quite heavy defended sub-sector and sector capitals at one point, if you don't all that you have is some crappy death and feral worlds of which no one (except maybe some SMs) actauly gives a shit about. but at some point they will have to go against the defences of hive citys, which alone are capable of basicly 1 shooting anything the GE can throw at them

all the IoM realy needs to do is to focus the defending on key parts of it's economy and ifrastructure, protecting it against raids, increase the production of the star forts and other defensive instalations at key parts of a sub-sector, the raiders will be forced at one point to fight against the Imperial fleet and they will need to take the planet more or less intact to have something out of. ofcourse you could always just blow everything up but the GE populace would also want something out of the war, you don't just send a billion people to almost certain death and not gain anything except a massive depth and a big casualty number out of it.

 

[ThreeWords]

but the intresting thing is that this argument is only Imperium (Segmentum command) against Empire. you throw them against Space marines, Orks, Chaos Space Marines, or eldar... the empire will be crushed in short order and would take losses on an epic scale to the point that they could not recover from.

sure, RnD could help mitigate the damage, but it is hard to learn from your losses when no one comes back to tell you how you lost...

That is a very good point.

Take the Eldar - how does the Empire fight a race that knows what's going to happen before they do? Even if we let them keep their own FTL ability to "spawn-rape" a system, the Eldar would know in advance it was coming and have their own fleet camped ready to blow the shit out of the Empire.

Forget Jedi Mind Tricks, a Psyker could make a Puppet out of a Galactic Empire officer, and make him send units on suicide missions, or suck secrets right out of his brain.

Then there's Chaos. Oh lord, what fun. Even Master Yoda is going to have to go and find a new pair of underpants when a Bloodthirster kicks down the walls of reality. Unleash Chaos Daemons upon the Empire, and they are dead!

Agreed. It is something definitely worth seeing!

Or what about the Tyranid Swarm descending on the GE? That would be a short, but entertaining fight

 

[Wyatt]

we don't choose one over the other, we simply imply that both fields exisit in the same realm. with fields like the Waagh produced by the orks, and void produced by some c'tan is no single all define magical power.


that said... just to assume that an acctively agressive entity which goes out of its way to take over developed and open minds that have little to no real protection would seemingly ignore the open minded and unprotected Jedi kind of defies logic. Sure, you could argue that in just normal space far from the presence of the warp, the jedi would be safe, however the instant an imperium Battle Barge rips open a warp hole near a battle, all the jedi would be incapacitated untill the hole was closed. and really for some that could be all the time needed for a warp god to corrupt several of the jedi.

for the sake of argument let us say that we DO allow both fields too exist. your statment that jedi would become a victim to demons is STILL wrong. demons use 1 field, jedi use another. just because ONE fields is dangerious doesnt imply that another is. a Jedi can be attuned to the force and be totaly immune too the warp.

just as TV can get a TV station signal and not be bothered at ALL by a cell phone signal. and being attuned is a perfect work. a Jedi is tuned to the force, NOT the warp. hell your even assuming that a demon is attuned to the force themselves for that matter. Jedis magic comes from the force , they are tuned to the force if a demon wanted to attack their 'open minds' than the DEMON would need to be able to use the force themselves.

you have made HUGE assumptions that just arent supported by common sense. if only because we cant just 'combine' the two since they are two different things. they arent compariable on a point for point basis like other things are. such as slug weapons, or lasers. so again i say we need to chose one OR the other source of magic. if we DO chose BOTH sources than NEITHER of the adepts would be subject too the advantages or drawbacks of the OTHERS magic source. Jedi wouldnt be any more subject to demon attack than an average Joe factory worker, and a Psyker wouldnt ever fall to the 'dark side'.

it would be near impossible to backengineer imperium weapons because for the empire. the empire would need to find specific resources and elements then mine them in a large enough quantity to produce such weapons. transport them to a production facility then transport them to respective combat groups. getting this in full force could take 5 to 50 years depending on which weapon you are trying to replicate.

numbers and assumptions pulled out of your ass not too put too fine a point on this. tell me what resources and elements that the Empire doesnt have ready access too that the 40K boys do. and how on earth did you arrive that the 5 to 50 years nonsence? they built and armed an entire clone army in less that 10 years from NOTHING and had it in combat in MONTHS from the time it was compleated and that INCLUDED a side trip to move that army from Kamino to Coruscant so they could stage their big show of loading up those troops into their shiney new fleet. you really think they couldnt build a bolter/chain sword/lasegun/fucking LIGHTSABER in less time than it takes them to grow a human?

on the other hand, the imperium can easily reproduce any of the Empire weapons or vehicals. the foundries and forges left behind from the Dark Age of Technology are quiet effectively 'copy machines' on an industrial level. if an example is provided for the machine, it can start producing identical copies of that item in massive quantites not requiring resources or much logistics out side getting the weapons to the front.

again you make some poor statments. even if i grant that the Imperium can just copy any SW weapon. they still need the raw materials that would BE the end copy. its not like they are gunna plunk a blaster down, scan it and then turn them out by the trillions. the first law of conservation of mass will come into play. even if you assume the ability to convert one element into another and that the Imperium could turn sand into tabana gas. you STILL would need billions of ton's of sand.

the funny thing is that your argument as to why the IMPERIUM would over come the Empire in weapons production is the same argument you tryed to use above for why the EMPIRE could NOT overcome the imperium.

further more, they can't play 'catch up' on the genetic diffrence between the space marine and the clone trooper. the empire can not massively alter the genetics of their soldiers, the only take prime examples, sift out the bad and empower the good. if they could of altered the genetics of their clone troopers, they could of effectively made an army of jedi from the begining which already display great reflexes above normal strength and near super human dexterity.

the Emperior DID clone jedi in the EU. in fact the first 3 books of the EU were about a cloned Jedi that went crazy in the cloning process.

one other thing that you missed is why would the Emperior want to clone an army of the very people he was intent on killing off? that would be like expecting the Imperium to clone orks.

and finaly, i know that some here seem to think that space marines could bring down the entire empire with just one of them acting totaly alone. but in the nature of not becoming TOTALY lost in the vastness of our own assholes we can safly i think, assume that one space marine would be killed at some point during their romp through the entire galaxys worth of clone troopers. and when that SM is killed and a genetic sample is given to the Kaminoians , 2 years later SMs start rolling of their productions lines by the billions and now not only does the Empire enjoy a huge tech advantage but they also have an army the SIZE of the imperial guard with common foot soldiers as tought as Space Marines IN that Army.

the massive empire fleets are nothing compared to the fleets of the imperium...
a sector fleet of the Galatic empire would consist of about 24 capital ships (imperial star destroyer class 750m - 1 km) and being generious, they would have 1 Super star destroyer although only a handful of them exist (1.6+ km) and about 6 escort squadrons (1 squadron is 350 assorted fighters, bombers, and support ships) with a possible attachment of another support fleet (3 capital ships, and 1 support squadron)

a Sub-sector fleet of the Imperium of man consists of no less than 2 battle ships (8km) 24 cruisers (3-6 km) and 6 escort squadrons (1 squadron is 1000-2000 fighters, bombers, support ships)


the ony real advantage the empire fleet would have over the imperium fleet is logistics. having FTL drives, a sector fleet of the empire could respond to a distress in a few days where as it will take several weeks and months for the imperium to show up with their fleet.

you have made some pretty odd assumptions about both the size of the Empires ships. and in further assuming that a 'sector' in 40K is the same as a 'sector' in Star Wars.

using your numbers and your ship estimates id just simply say too you that the empire is made up of 40 million sectors and the the Imperium is made up of 10. ill let you do the math on how many ships that equils on an absolute scale.

now for some research details

Imperial Star destroyer [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_I-class_Star_Destroyer#Dimensions]

SSD [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Star_Destroyer]

and of corse

the Death Star II [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star_II]

pay close attention too the part in the death star article when it says the DS II was built in 2 years. how many YEARS does it take again to build a titan or a baneblade to say nothing at all about building battleships or star forts.

hell if the empire can turn out a friggen Death star in 2 years any arguments that you make that they simply cant crush the Imperium with mass production seems kinda stupid dont you think?

while the imperium is taking 2 years to build a fucking tank the empire is turning out DEATH STARS at the same rate.

however, you are wrong on one aspect.
if they plop down a clone trooper invasion force planet side of an imperial hive world facing the Imperial guard/PDF, that planet would be owned the empire in short order. the standard storm trooper can be compared to 'Karskin' squads... and the massive IG ranks of conscripts would be nothing more than fodder. (as they are in the tabletop) only when the full might of the Imperium comes to bear with full regiments of Imperium Strom troopers, massive fleet, and detachments of guards messured in the billions supported by basalisks and bane blades would they start to crush the empire.

but the intresting thing is that this argument is only Imperium (Segmentum command) against Empire. you throw them against Space marines, Orks, Chaos Space Marines, or eldar... the empire will be crushed in short order and would take losses on an epic scale to the point that they could not recover from.

sure, RnD could help mitigate the damage, but it is hard to learn from your losses when no one comes back to tell you how you lost...

first i didnt say the clone army in the movies would even beat the IG as it is. if anything id compare them at about equil in power and ability. but while your ponderious imperium is trying to get messengers through the warp without getting ate by demons and if it can somehow manage to gather up all its massive firepower in one spot ....... eventualy ....... someday ........ without getting ate by demons...... the empire has crushed the IG, is now turning out clone armys of Space marines, mass producing death stars, and moving for a direct attack on earth itself to unplug the Imperial throne once and for all. even those super duper star forts you can walk on from jupiter too earth they wont stand up to a fleet of death stars.

like i said there is much more too this debate than individual weapons power.

Nobody bothered to think of that in Star Wars - the ships are magically immune to the laws of physics. However, the sheer strain a vessel like the Super-Star Destroyer would be under every time she turns means that by rights it should behave exactly as an Imperial Navy ship does (worse, in fact, since she's bigger). The Death Star would produce a gravity well significant enough to piss up the tides of any planet it flew passed, but that seems to be ignored as well.


This is the first point - I do not believe Star Wars ignores these factors because every ship is conveniently wrapped in a Force Field, or built of Indestructotanium. I believe it ignores these factors because nobody gave a crap.

why would you snear at the idea of force fields not being able to deal with mass/movment issues? and aside from that it seems obvious to me that while the speed of light is the limit of OUR universe that hyperspace (or the warp for that matter) arent a part of OUR universe. what psyical laws apply in either place? in order to make your argument reasonable than you need too provide those laws. whos to say that an object in motion stays in motion in hyperspace? or the warp?

your whole argument makes huge assumptions that arent established at all. in fact the idea that an Imperium ship can move faster than the speed of light at ALL, even via the warp, tosses out all arguments that want to use our real life universe Physics limits to aid ones argument.

the same mistery tech that lets Imperium ships enter the warp, is just a part of the same mystery tech that lets the Empires ships move FTL in hyper space.

 

[loquerion]

Although I do love these kinds of debates, this is getting to the bad side of it... kinda like religion, it stopped being a discussion about page 3 and turned into two sides with fingers in ears going "lalalalalalalalalalalaaaaa..." intermixed with quoting out of context scripture from obscure non cannon books and fan fiction.

If you are going to debate something, you can not just ignore everything which has been stated before, pick one or two things stated recently and then write three paragraphs on why the poster is a retard... That's not how debate works, and it's why we have to put up with 90% of the crap in modern life.

That said... Ground rules help.


Force VS Warp Psychics

The Force is an energy field created by all living things (as stated by Kinobi), thus there is no reason why with a HUGE population of living things in the 40K universe would not generate it, albeit not harness it. Undisputed effects are influencing the 'weak minded', moving things about (up to fighter sized actually seen), augmented personal motion (speed, jumping), augmented reflexes and beyond the grave communication. Disputed effects are blowing up suns (done by one of the Sith race, not a human, and it was using a planetary mounted force amplifier weapon which got destroyed), controlling the minds of an entire planet (was an illusion, and the people being controlled were 'weak minded' and 'decedant'), moving things much bigger than star fighters (I.e. star destroyers, but in all cases the backlash has killed the user and usually left a big crater).

Anything more than the undisputed effects are VERY rare, usually manifested by a Jedi or Sith master who is long since dead, usually myth or legend rather than cannon effect, and usually have major consequences / disadvantages. From a battlefield level, taking anything much above the force effects seen in any of the cannon films, cartoons or direct screenplays is on shaky ground. It is also worth noting that Jedi are VERY, VERY rare in the SW setting... on the order of one in 1mil people may be force sensitive (I'll leave out the Medi-Clorian talk, because Lucas needs kicked in the nuts for that), with a small fraction of those who are able to harness it to a usable level... of the ones who can use the Force, again, only a very small fraction ever become masters. In a GE VS IoM fight, Jedi may be seen in key engagements, but are by no means commonplace and are more likely to be deployed in strategic covert ops, than battlefield operation.

In 40k, direct Psychic Warp effects are a result of manipulating and focusing the subspace warp layer which is present in all reality. In addition to the direct effects which can be manifested by psychics, it is also possible to use powers gleaned from the denizens of the Warp... I.e. Demons, but for which living things of adequate sentience must exist in the adjoining real space. The level of sentience required for demonic activity is very, very high. Typically younger races, such as the Tau or Squats, do not generate this having achieved civilization within the past 10,000 years. It is only the races such as Eldar and Humanity which are 100,000s or 50,000+ years old which cause the warp to be populated with demonic denizens (this is simplification, but functionally accurate). None of the races in the SW galaxy have been civilised long enough for Demonic warp creatures to manifest, which is good for them really.

This splits the effects into two groups, one of which depends on the presence of the 40K galaxy to feed Demonic summoning and some of the other demonic effects, but direct psychic effects themselves would work fine in the SW galaxy. If a Total War Invasion of the SW galaxy was mounted by the IoM, then given enough time, the presence of humanity in the SW galaxy would begin to generate Warp terrors and other demons, but this effect can't really be predicted or relied upon. If the invasion lasted a long time however (months / years), then slowly the demonic warp influence of Chaoz would spread to the SW galaxy, which without the checks and measures put in place by the IoM would quickly result in gruesome corruption.

Warp Effects are far more wide ranging than Force effect, and on a more common scale. 1 in 100 humans are Warp sensitive, with 1 in 1000 being locked up for it. Those locked up are either trained, or used as food for the Emperor. Space Marines are more likely to be Warp Sensitive, with about 1 in 50 Space Marines able to manifest powers. Telekinesis, levitation, tele-portation, enhanced reflexes, greatly augmented strength, enhanced resilience, short term unbreakable energy fields, longer term sacrificial energy fields, elemental attacks (lightning, fire, ice, chaoz), ethereal form (turning into a ghost), direct manipulation of chance and fate (i.e. guns jamming, affecting accuracy, weather, lucky shots), accurate future predictions, creation of small objects, forming and shaping of materials into larger objects, destruction and possession of technology, manipulation of minds (not restricted to weak minds), illusions, constructs... this list does go on, but most importantly users are far more common and would be seen in front line combat as a matter of course. The scale of these effects can be self, single target, large area and ship to ship in space combat. Demonic effects mostly include summoning, but can also include more insidious mind assaults and possession.

There are disputable Warp effects as well, such as ripping planets apart, snuffing out suns, creating black holes, mind controlling whole star systems etc., but these are not the norm, and although disputable, would never be used in front-line combat.

Warp effects and the Force can be assumed to be coexistent, and non interfering in terms of their manifestation; so using one would not prevent the other being used. In terms of their effects however - A Warp user can use telekinesis to directly manipulate objects, but so can a Force user. So the combat would come down to whoever can apply more force (*not 'F'orce). Mind effects from the Force are less likely to be effective on IoM troops due to the Imperial conditioning of minds to resist Warp corruption ("An open mind is like a fortress with its gates open and unguarded"). As demonstrated however, the average imperial storm trooper is very susceptible to mental manipulation. Ultimately, the the key issue comes from the scale of deployment. Taken at the peak of the GE, there were 2 Sith and maybe 3 Jedi, but it's unlikely that they would ally. Although it is possible there were a few more in hiding, this would be 'a few'... not the 100,000 or so it would take to make them the front line shock troops many would like to think of them as.


Finally (for this topic), in a single small engagement or one on one fight between specific Jedi / Sith and specific Primarchs / Characters - it may be acceptable to state one off, or single events such as throwing an ISD through space, or crushing a sun... but these are not applicable to a galactic war. The Sith who destroyed a sun can only be in place at a time, and cannot defend 10,000s of worlds in the GE or attack a whole galaxy of hundreds of billions of worlds of the IoM. What is important are the sustainable, commonly available, front line engagement forces - Their capabilities, their strength and their number.

(More to come on in depth topics)

 

[Pyro Paul]

he Emperior DID clone jedi in the EU. in fact the first 3 books of the EU were about a cloned Jedi that went crazy in the cloning process.

one other thing that you missed is why would the Emperior want to clone an army of the very people he was intent on killing off? that would be like expecting the Imperium to clone orks.

and finaly, i know that some here seem to think that space marines could bring down the entire empire with just one of them acting totaly alone. but in the nature of not becoming TOTALY lost in the vastness of our own assholes we can safly i think, assume that one space marine would be killed at some point during their romp through the entire galaxys worth of clone troopers. and when that SM is killed and a genetic sample is given to the Kaminoians , 2 years later SMs start rolling of their productions lines by the billions and now not only does the Empire enjoy a huge tech advantage but they also have an army the SIZE of the imperial guard with common foot soldiers as tought as Space Marines IN that Army.

no... they would not.

first off, if you tried straight cloning the dna provided by a fallen space marine, all you would get is a generic very strong human... not the super human soldiers presented in the game. this is because the assets which make the Space marine super human are not acctually genetic traits, they are physically implanted gene-seeds.

next, you could not genetically 'produce' these clone super troopers in massive numbers. it is absolutely random on weither or not these gene-seeds take root at all. even identical troops in every single aspect will have a very high mortality rate as a bulk of them would still reject the gene-seed despite being identical.

further more, you would not see this force for 20-30 years, as that is the time it takes to implant all of the geneseeds to the point where they mature and acctually take full effect on the intended subject.

but on a side note, there is absolutely no way in hell they would acctually get suggnificant data in order to reproduce the gene-seed specimens required to reproduce the space marine type soldiers. a bulk of the 19 gene-seeds are what make the soldier super human and must sustain heavy damage before the marine can die. ontop of this, once the space marine is dead, all gene-seed organs decay extreamly quickly after the space marines death making it even harder to procure a single sample.

the galatic empire would effectively have to crush an entire chapter worth of space marines in order to aquire enough genetic data to start reproducing a compherable clone.

you have made some pretty odd assumptions about both the size of the Empires ships. and in further assuming that a 'sector' in 40K is the same as a 'sector' in Star Wars.

using your numbers and your ship estimates id just simply say too you that the empire is made up of 40 million sectors and the the Imperium is made up of 10. ill let you do the math on how many ships that equils on an absolute scale.

now for some research details

Imperial Star destroyer

SSD

and of corse

the Death Star II

it has been a long time since i've delved into star wars canon, so forgive me if the names of these ships are incorrect. but i will correct it best i can.

first off, lets get a little size down.
the Imperium of man is divided into 5 diffrent Segmentums. a Segmentum is further divided into Sectors which consist of basically a cube 200 light years size (consists 8 million cubic light years) sectors are further divided up into sub-sectors which usually have an 8-10 light year radius in order to encompass 2-8 star systems.

in the Galatic empire,
a system fleet covers 2-4 star systems.
a fleet covers aproximatly 16-30 star systems
a Sector Group covers roughly a 150-200 light year radius and all systems with in.

now earlier i was being genrious comparing a subsector fleet to a sector group of the galatic empire... but since you want to prod at it...

now, let us get down to numbers a Sector group for the Imperial Navy of the Galatic empire consists of 24 capital ships.
16 of these capital ships are Imperial class Star Destroyers.
8 of them are crusiers and support carriers.

these capital ships are supported by roughly 4 squadrons of fast attack vessels (3 fighter detachments, 1 bomber detachments, ~350 ships per squadron) and 2 escort groups consisting of corvettes and frigates.

the bulk force consists of 2400-4000 space worthy vessels.

now... a Sector group is compherable to a a Sector battlefleet in the Imperum.
a Battlefleet consists of 50-75 Capital ships with 36-60 support squadrons. they are tasked with guarding a 200 cubic light year area of space.

a common composition-
3 Retrobution Battleships
5 Emperor Battleships
24 luna-class cruisers
13 Gothic-class Crusiers
6 Dictator attack craft carriers
4 Mars-class battlecruisers
16 Endeavour-class light cruisers.
(65 capital ships)

further more, if mounting an assault, a Hexathedral Assault Citadel can be assigned to the battlefleet armed with an assortment of planet seiging and planet busting weapons, including two stage cyclonic torpedos. (compherable to a death star)

so 24 light-cruiser sized ships against 8 battle ships and 57 like sized cruisers...
and who is going to win this battle?


i was being nice by comparing a Sector group of the GE to a Sub-sector fleet of the Imperium of man...

pay close attention too the part in the death star article when it says the DS II was built in 2 years. how many YEARS does it take again to build a titan or a baneblade to say nothing at all about building battleships or star forts.

hell if the empire can turn out a friggen Death star in 2 years any arguments that you make that they simply cant crush the Imperium with mass production seems kinda stupid dont you think?

while the imperium is taking 2 years to build a fucking tank the empire is turning out DEATH STARS at the same rate.

Lets see.
Luna ship yard above the Adeptus Mechanicus forge world Mars, with all foundries and forges planet side working working at full production towards a single goal...

that forge world would produce a complete and fully functional Hexathedral Assault Citadel once every 3-5 months (larger than a Death Star 2). with in 8-12 weeks, a fully competent crew will be stationed onto the assault citadel. effectively after every 8-9 months you would see a fully functional Hexathedral fly away from the forge world.

now... that isn't just unique to the Luna ship yard.... All Forge worlds are capable of achiving the same production rate.


however, this is if you only consider 'production' and nothing else.
since the Warhammer 40k universe is subject to common sense things like Logistics, Economics, religion, and Burricratic non-sense, they see many restrictions which is the primary reason why you don't see forge worlds producing a Battle ships once every 8 weeks, even though they are completely capable of doing so. everything must be aproved, scheduled, sanctioned, blessed, and done in a ritualistic manner making it take much longer than it really does.



of course... i would say bring on the fleet of death stars.
i absolutely love the argument that the death star is some how indestructable (ignoring that a band of rebels destroyed Both with only a handful of out dated fighters, corvettes, and frigates) Its primary weapon, the green laser of death, has an insanely short range forcing things to be with in visable range to be fired upon.

go ahead and crawl here with your space moons...
and i sure do hope you like the taste of Immaterium, because i'm going to be hitting you with my backstone fortress... you know, that super weapon which rips holes in the very fabric of space from half a galaxy away. i wonder if those moon sized space stations are fast enough to evade a Solar system sized Warp rupture...


of course, i could just sit far out of your range with a couple of battle ships and hit you with Nova cannons with impunity... or fling a couple of drop pods at it and take it over... oh hell, i could just let you get here and laugh as your super weapon does absolutely nothing against the void shields of the massive Hexathedral Assault Citadels if constructed, while my two head cyclonic torpedos blow your preciouse space moons to dust...

 

[Rusty Bucket]

This is pointless. Warhammer 40k will always win this fight, simply because of it's sheer scale. You can argue about Jedi and Deathstars as much as you want, but the fact is the IoM is to big, there is way too much stuff in it. Plus, there's the numerous other races involved. The SW universe can do nothing against Necrons. Not even Space Marines can cope with Necrons. Face it, if this happened, Star Wars would lose. Doesn't matter how long it would take, or how well the SW guys do, there's simply too much crap for them to deal with.

 

[loquerion]

Rusty - It's never pointless... It's like trying to argue with 'Mac Users', religious fanatics, or any other of that nature..

Think of it like practising your tennis against a brick wall. It may not be a challenging game, but you know that your opponent isn't going to run off and admit defeat leaving you with nobody to play against.

 

[Pyro Paul]

well star wars simply suffers from BISL syndrome.

Because It's Space, Lol.

things in the universe defy all logic... simply because it is space.

Endor... a small moon planet which has forests... yet is not depicted of acctually orbiting anything.


well, because of the moons size, the only thing it can possibly be orbiting is a gas giant. however, if it was orbiting a gas giant which exists with in the 'green zone' of a stars orbital zone, then the moon would have become tidally locked with the gas giant subsqently being pulled into the gas giant billions of years before organic life could develope, let alone giant redwood sized trees.

however, the novalization tries to explain this off in that the orginal orbiting planet was destroyed... If this was true, then the moon using the inertia built from orbit would have a gravity sling shot flinging it out into deep space creating an oblonged asterial type orbit pattern. the moon would quickly lose its heat and become a massive planet sized ice ball...

So how in the hell does a moon sized planet exist to serve as a station for the DSII?
Because it is space! lol.

 

[Wyatt]

no... they would not.

ok that last one was enough. i read it all and from what i can see you pulled most of it out of your ass.

number 1 this 'gene seed' nonsence. a clone is a clone. using the phrase gene-seed is 40Ks way of saying 'we clone them, but we are to stupid to remember how we actualy do it and for that matter are too stupid to figure out out ever again so we call it the mysterious/religious name of 'gene-seed' instead. to take mundain everyday science and try to make it religiousy to fit our gothic background'

number 2 ive read alot (most) of star wars. ive played alot of star wars games, ive seen all 6 movies uncountable times and ive yet to see ANY PLACE in ANY of that where the Empires order of battle is broken down by both individual unit and fleet/formation size galaxy wide. and trust me ive looked. so your numbers about sector fleet sizes and composition are pulled right out of your ass as far as i can tell. for star wars atleast. i cant speak to the 40K stuff because while i love it ive never actualy gotten into the nuts and bolts of it. my experiance comes from DoW and the wiki i linked 12 replys ago. ohh and i read the Eisenhorn series.

number 3: i would ask your source for this. ---> that forge world would produce a complete and fully functional Hexathedral Assault Citadel once every 3-5 months (larger than a Death Star 2). with in 8-12 weeks. and not just this but ALL of your facts, feats, and figures. because in order to have a reasonable 'debate' i, from my end, need to know you arent just pulling shit out of your ass.

see this is the thing. when i posted that they could build a death star II in 2 years .......... i wasnt actualy comfortable with that. the sight i linked said they could, but i dont think its reasonable to asume you could build a fucking moon size space station hundereds of miles in size in 2 years. just coming up with the mass alone would be ........ mind blowing. real science says it would be almost impossable. its not like your going to be diggin the metal you need to build it out of the hills someplace on some mining planet, you would need to use the whole fucking planet and then some. you would need to actualy destroy a whole planet and expose its metal core just to get the raw materials needed to build just the decks and framing supports.

now with these basic things in mind. i COULD see how perhaps the GE could build a death star in 2 years if they are in a system with a planet or 3 they could destroy just to get the raw materials that would be required. but i ask you how a 'forge world' ....... even mars could get access too these raw materials. did they destroy Venus, and mercury, or any of the other planets in our system? they used the asteroids you say? well now if there IS a chain of star forts you could walk on from jupiter too earth id tend to think that you would ahve had to destroy pretty much every planet, moon comet and asteroid in the entire system BUT earth the moon and mars just to get the raw materials for those you have allready built. and thats assuming a TOTAL conversion of one eliment to another is possable. after all if 60% of a planet is carbon that leaves another 35% that is metal (usualy simple iron) and the other 5% is everything else. how do you come up with a bazillion giga-tons of indestructotanium that the stations are actualy built out of? and even if you had a magic machine that could turn dirt into indestructotanium you would still need the bazillions of giga-tons of DIRT to do it with. do you think to convice me that the Imperium is moving entire PLANETS from one star to the Sol system to feed Mars's need for simple raw materials?

your just not putting much though into the reality of the situation. its possable that one could build a death star in 2 years, if (BIG if) your given the ability too crack planets open and get at the mass of raw material that would be needed. posable, no matter how unlikley. this however would require that the death stars be built 'in place' as it were. meaning that you dont bring those raw materials too a ship yard, you build the 'ship' at the location of the raw materials. with mars stuck in Sol orbit, how in the holy love of fuck do you expect to provide the simple mass of raw materials to build a moon sized battle stations? the 20 or 30 of them that are allready built would use up every planet, commet and asteroid in the entire solar system. and even if you DO allow that somehow the Imperium is able to move planet sized masses via the warp from other systems to sol to provide a steady flow of raw materials for these stations, the Empire is just setting up ship yards in place and churning out DS's by the hundereds.

mars would be limited by both its lack of raw materials and the simple fact that one planet no matter how well its organized to build is in effect just ONE ship yard. the Empire on the other hand would be setting up hundereds of ship yards IN PLACE in dead systems with the raw materials allready at the build locations and ready to start producing. once the system is used up they just move to the next system. and while super awsome mars is churing out 1 battle station , even using your ass numbers of every 3 months, the Empire is building DSs in 200 different systems at the SAME time. so at the end of 2 years the Empire has 200 Death Stars ready to fight, and mars has produced 8 <--- EIGHT star forts, at the MAX, using YOUR numbers.

as i said, there is more to war than who hs the biggest gun.

 

[Pyro Paul]

1.) Space marines are not clones. and the gene seed isn't some sort of ritualistic word to state that they are clones.

Gene-seeds are bundles of tissue physically implanted into a space marine which imparts on them super human powers. there are 19 gene-seeds in total, and range from organ implants to full transfusions. some of these organs take years to fully mature and become functional in the space marine.

2.) so i guess you never played pen and paper D6 or D20 on more epic levels? fleet composition of the imperial navy (as well as the republic, Galatic senate, and seperatist navy) is outlined in some of their books.

in any case... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy
that shows the Star Wars imperial fleet outlined by most D6 and D20 rule books.

number 3: i would ask your source for this. ---> that forge world would produce a complete and fully functional Hexathedral Assault Citadel once every 3-5 months (larger than a Death Star 2). with in 8-12 weeks. and not just this but ALL of your facts, feats, and figures. because in order to have a reasonable 'debate' i, from my end, need to know you arent just pulling shit out of your ass.

see this is the thing. when i posted that they could build a death star II in 2 years .......... i wasnt actualy comfortable with that. the sight i linked said they could, but i dont think its reasonable to asume you could build a fucking moon size space station hundereds of miles in size in 2 years. just coming up with the mass alone would be ........ mind blowing. real science says it would be almost impossable. its not like your going to be diggin the metal you need to build it out of the hills someplace on some mining planet, you would need to use the whole fucking planet and then some. you would need to actualy destroy a whole planet and expose its metal core just to get the raw materials needed to build just the decks and framing supports.

now with these basic things in mind. i COULD see how perhaps the GE could build a death star in 2 years if they are in a system with a planet or 3 they could destroy just to get the raw materials that would be required. but i ask you how a 'forge world' ....... even mars could get access too these raw materials. did they destroy Venus, and mercury, or any of the other planets in our system? they used the asteroids you say? well now if there IS a chain of star forts you could walk on from jupiter too earth id tend to think that you would ahve had to destroy pretty much every planet, moon comet and asteroid in the entire system BUT earth the moon and mars just to get the raw materials for those you have allready built. and thats assuming a TOTAL conversion of one eliment to another is possable. after all if 60% of a planet is carbon that leaves another 35% that is metal (usualy simple iron) and the other 5% is everything else. how do you come up with a bazillion giga-tons of indestructotanium that the stations are actualy built out of? and even if you had a magic machine that could turn dirt into indestructotanium you would still need the bazillions of giga-tons of DIRT to do it with. do you think to convice me that the Imperium is moving entire PLANETS from one star to the Sol system to feed Mars's need for simple raw materials?

your just not putting much though into the reality of the situation. its possable that one could build a death star in 2 years, if (BIG if) your given the ability too crack planets open and get at the mass of raw material that would be needed. posable, no matter how unlikley. this however would require that the death stars be built 'in place' as it were. meaning that you dont bring those raw materials too a ship yard, you build the 'ship' at the location of the raw materials. with mars stuck in Sol orbit, how in the holy love of fuck do you expect to provide the simple mass of raw materials to build a moon sized battle stations? the 20 or 30 of them that are allready built would use up every planet, commet and asteroid in the entire solar system. and even if you DO allow that somehow the Imperium is able to move planet sized masses via the warp from other systems to sol to provide a steady flow of raw materials for these stations, the Empire is just setting up ship yards in place and churning out DS's by the hundereds.

wow... just wow.
This isn't an RTS... your ships are not produced from raw materials by a single ship yard...
it is as if you don't even understand basic modern production methods...

Production of any modern project, be it car or capital ship, will never have production facilities on site. All production facilities would be off site, they would produce modular peices and pre-fabricated sections which would then be shipped and assembled on site. next to nothing is produced on site, it is built elsewhere and transported for assembly.

the death star (1 and 2) is the cumulitive effort of thousands of factories spread through out the entire galatic empire producing key peices which are then transported and assembled at the building site.

that said... a Forge World is Thousands of factories neatly collected on the entire surface of a single planet. the Citidel would be assembled above the planet, cutting a lot of travel time out of the equation. the pre fabricated peices would only need to make it into orbit where they would then be assembled. taking that step of logistics out saves a massive amount of time. you wouldn't have to worry about resources because the forge world is already supplied with resources from mine worlds and death planets through out the imperium... much like how the factories in the Galatic empire are supplied with their own resources through their own supply lines.

mars would be limited by both its lack of raw materials and the simple fact that one planet no matter how well its organized to build is in effect just ONE ship yard. the Empire on the other hand would be setting up hundereds of ship yards IN PLACE in dead systems with the raw materials allready at the build locations and ready to start producing. once the system is used up they just move to the next system. and while super awsome mars is churing out 1 battle station , even using your ass numbers of every 3 months, the Empire is building DSs in 200 different systems at the SAME time. so at the end of 2 years the Empire has 200 Death Stars ready to fight, and mars has produced 8 <--- EIGHT star forts, at the MAX, using YOUR numbers.

oh... so these ship yards, foundries, production facilities, smelting yards, shipping lines, marshelling yards, holding space, living quarters, and construction space would all instantly appear?

not only that, 200 of them would appear in the middle of no where with no such thing as logistics defined or outlined, be completely staffed, crewed with individuals which have no need to eat or have any interaction asides sleep, and have a fleet of cargo ships already at their beckon call to ship things.


oh, and by the way, foundries, smelting yards, and factories need to be constructed in a gravity well. like the surface of the planet... and you would probably need enough of them to cover a suggnificant part of the surface of that planet if you wanted to reach that 2 year dead line... it would be like a world of forges... some sort of... factory world...

 

[Wyatt]

1.) Space marines are not clones. and the gene seed isn't some sort of ritualistic word to state that they are clones.

Gene-seeds are bundles of tissue physically implanted into a space marine which imparts on them super human powers. there are 19 gene-seeds in total, and range from organ implants to full transfusions. some of these organs take years to fully mature and become functional in the space marine.

2.) so i guess you never played pen and paper D6 or D20 on more epic levels? fleet composition of the imperial navy (as well as the republic, Galatic senate, and seperatist navy) is outlined in some of their books.

in any case... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy
that shows the Star Wars imperial fleet outlined by most D6 and D20 rule books.

1) not getting this are you? those organs that are implaneted into men to make them space marines? ........... they can be cloned. in fact thats what it means to take the 'gene-seed' in the 40K universe. they take the DNA and use it too CLONE the organs they put into the next SM.

and not only this but the Empire doesnt have to screen common people hoping to get a good canidate for a SM, they can clone the Marines themselves, then use the gene-seed, clone the orgtans that MAKES a space marine a space marine and .......... like i said before your now rolling billions of space marine clones off a production line.

if its living tissue of any kind ............ it can be cloned. this includes the space marines themselves AND the gene-seed organs

2) no ive never played any D20 table top game. and i didnt know that we were using D20 rule books as the sol foundation for this chatt. if so you need to show me what rule book says that Jedi would get eaten by demons.

as to the ship thing, did you read your own link? i think you have confused ships with fighters in your count. a 'sector fleet' in the GE consists of 2400 warships. not 2400 warships AND fighters like your 40K link did. there is a big difference between 2400 SDs cruisers, destroyers, carriers and so on WITH fighter compliment. and 2400 ships total INCLUDING fighters. that page its clear that fighters arent counted as 'ships' when fleet size is counted. you on the othyer hand DID count fighters in your 40K numbers. if we were to measure both fleets more or less the same, a sector fleet for the GE would have 2400 warships, plus a total of around *does some rough math* ........... *carry the 1* ........ *takes off shoes* ......... another , call it 20 thousands fighters for a TOTAL sector fleet size of 23,000 ships. AND just because this formation is called a sector fleet doesnt mean its the ONLY fleet in a given sector. the term 'sector fleet' is used to describe the size of the force itself, and is of no use in being able to know just how man sector fleets there are. meaning a sector fleet is 23000 ships large, but that doesnt mean there is only ..... 10 fleets of 23000 ships because there is only 10 sectors. the page you linked said there was millions of starships at the height of the GE. since they arent counting fighters as starships we can go back to your 2300 sector fleet sized formation, now devide 1,000,000 by 2300..... *subtract the 7* ........... screw it *busts out the calculator* it would be a total of 435 sector fleet sized formation.

wow... just wow.
This isn't an RTS... your ships are not produced from raw materials by a single ship yard...
it is as if you don't even understand basic modern production methods...

i wont argue with anything you said after this part. because this part is where you go dead wrong and totaly missed what i was saying. i dont give a shit HOW you arrange the final fitting of a given station. my POINT is that even if you make those parts in another location your still having too move MOON size masses of parts somehow. even if the fucking station is made out of leggo size bricks, you STILL would need to move a moon sized mass of leggo bricks from the place where they make the bricks , to mars where the bricks are snaped together to finish the station.

and you make this evfen WORSE for yourself because not only do you want to use mars to snap thopse bricks together, you want them to make the fucking bricks at the same time. ............ so your still left with having to provide enough RAW MATERIAL to mars to make the bricks.

try this it might help. your house is made of 100,000 bricks. the bricks are made out of sand, each of those bricks only weighs 10 lbs, but some how you need to get a MILLION pounds of sand to make your house out of. now you can break this process up and have 10 different factorys make 10,000 bricks each and have all those bricks shipped too a central location and presto , you have a house. but you still need to somehow move a MILLION pounds of sand...... and doing it YORU way you have to move it TWICE, you move it the first time from the sand pit to the brick factory, and you move the bricks themselves a second time to the location your building your house at.

when im talking about building Death stars in place that means we are building our house in the sand pit. so the million pounds of sand is here, the 10 factorys that make the bricks are here and the house itself will be built HERE.

and the second point your totaly missing is the scale of what we are talking about, it isnt just a million poinds of sand, its a giga-zillion pounds of sand. to make ANYTHING of a moon size mass, you need a moon size mass (at least) of raw materials to even start. so again i ask you, where does MARS get the raw materials from? you dont just 'ship in' a fucking moons worth of raw materials from the local wal-mart. its not like you can call the local home improvment supply guys and say ......... "yeah i want a moons worth of indestructotainum and can you have that to me by next monday?" and furthermore its not like there are efven whole planets floating around made of nothing but indestructotainum you could use. how do you get a moons sized mass of indestructotainum, when MOST of a given planet, commet, or asteroid is made up of common dirt? unless you have a magic machine that can turn dirt too indestructotainum you cant do it at all. or at best you would need to destroy millions of planets to get that much mass for ONE station. if 2% of a planet is made up of indestructotainum (a gift from me too you in and of itself) you would need to destroy and mine 50 planets too get ONE station worth of raw material.

too give you an idea of what im getting at ............. all the gold mined by mankind ever in our entire history would only make a house about the size of the whitehouse. assuming that indestructotainum is atleast as rare as gold, how long would it take to get enough of it to build a moon sized battle station?

building moon sized battle stations isnt anything like building a fucking car.

oh... so these ship yards, foundries, production facilities, smelting yards, shipping lines, marshelling yards, holding space, living quarters, and construction space would all instantly appear?

not only that, 200 of them would appear in the middle of no where with no such thing as logistics defined or outlined, be completely staffed, crewed with individuals which have no need to eat or have any interaction asides sleep, and have a fleet of cargo ships already at their beckon call to ship things.


oh, and by the way, foundries, smelting yards, and factories need to be constructed in a gravity well. like the surface of the planet... and you would probably need enough of them to cover a suggnificant part of the surface of that planet if you wanted to reach that 2 year dead line... it would be like a world of forges... some sort of... factory world...

getting the factorys build to make the finshed product is the EASY part of building moon sized stations, finding the shit you need to build them at ALL is the hard part. and as i clearly showed abolve if you build your house of bricks in the sand pit your gunna do it alot faster than if you try and ship that sand to a factory that makes bricks then ship it too the sight of the house afterwords.


the RAW MATERIALS to build the stations arent gunna come from mars. logic says its MUCH more efficent to move the factorys to the supply than try and ship the supply to the factory when we are talking about things of this size.

we arent building cars we are building MOONS. your way of doing things would be like trying to move an elephant half way around the world so that the vet can give him a shot. my way says move the vet ............. dumbass.

(ohh and my 'dumbass' comment wasnt aimed at you, it was aimed at ANYONE stupid enough to move the elephant and not the vet)

 

[Pyro Paul]

.... just, your arguments are staggering because you disregarding logic to a point of insanity.


i thought i explained it well enough for any one to understand.

i did not confuse fighters with anything, you see, because things like Frigates, Corvettes, and gun ships are considered Ships by all definiton, but are not considered capital ships. in my comparison between the fleets i broke it down and pulled the size of the Capital ships alone to hold against each other.

Standard Fleet group of the Galatic Empire has 24 capital ships. often these are all Imperial class star destroyers. but not all of them as you still have other Cruisers and carriers which are classified as capital ships as well.

So as i stated in my orginal post 16 of these vessels are the Imperial class star destroyer. 8 of them is a mixture of other capital ships such carriers and assault cruisers. i then compared this of a standard battlefleet of the Imperium's Capital ships Also alone. which consists of 65 (my list) capital ships, with nothing being smaller than a 2 km long cruiser.

as to the ship thing, did you read your own link? i think you have confused ships with fighters in your count. a 'sector fleet' in the GE consists of 2400 warships. not 2400 warships AND fighters like your 40K link did. there is a big difference between 2400 SDs cruisers, destroyers, carriers and so on WITH fighter compliment. and 2400 ships total INCLUDING fighters. that page its clear that fighters arent counted as 'ships' when fleet size is counted. you on the othyer hand DID count fighters in your 40K numbers. if we were to measure both fleets more or less the same, a sector fleet for the GE would have 2400 warships, plus a total of around *does some rough math* ........... *carry the 1* ........ *takes off shoes* ......... another , call it 20 thousands fighters for a TOTAL sector fleet size of 23,000 ships. AND just because this formation is called a sector fleet doesnt mean its the ONLY fleet in a given sector. the term 'sector fleet' is used to describe the size of the force itself, and is of no use in being able to know just how man sector fleets there are. meaning a sector fleet is 23000 ships large, but that doesnt mean there is only ..... 10 fleets of 23000 ships because there is only 10 sectors. the page you linked said there was millions of starships at the height of the GE. since they arent counting fighters as starships we can go back to your 2300 sector fleet sized formation, now devide 1,000,000 by 2300..... *subtract the 7* ........... screw it *busts out the calculator* it would be a total of 435 sector fleet sized formation.

where in the hell does all this math come from and what does it even have to do with anything?

you're just pulling numbers out of thin air now.

a Sector fleet is supported by 50-60 TIE squadrons of varring roles. this is easily extrapulated by the number of capital ships you have. since almost all Galatic empire capital ships also have a duel purpouse of carrier most all of them will carry 1-3 tie squadrons.

a single squadron consists of 12 to 24 individual starfighters (depending on its role)

meaning you're going to have 600 to 1400 fighters attached to a single sector group...

since most of these fighters are short range, you will probably not see them attached to any thing smaller than a cruiser, so you probably won't get any additional supporting tie squadrons with the fleet unless if you get more capital ships.

you still only have 2400-4000 vessels, but since you want to add it, you are supported by 1400 fighters.


and since you are so keen on trying to do the math.
an Imperium battle fleet consists of 65 Capital ships.
this is supported by 36-60 support squadrons. support squadrons are groups of 12 to 24 ships (depnding on roles) which range between destroyers, figates, escort ships and smaller gun ships and corvettes.

so i have some 400 to 1400 vessels larger than fighters but smaller than capital ships.

now staying with the same number, 1-3 fighter squadrons can be fielded out of a capital ship (and only a capital ship) which means my 65 capital ships are going to be supported by 65 to 195 squadrons of fighters ranging between 12 and 24 vessels. or roughly 800 to 4700 fighter sized vessels attached to my fleet.



and i honostly don't know where in the hell you got that sector fleet number...
the numbers of sector fleets are not identified by the number of ships you have but the area of space they cover. nor do i see what it has to do with anything.

and you make this evfen WORSE for yourself because not only do you want to use mars to snap thopse bricks together, you want them to make the fucking bricks at the same time. ............ so your still left with having to provide enough RAW MATERIAL to mars to make the bricks.

yeah... the thousands of Mine worlds at the beckon call of a single forge world... comunitively they provide moon sized chunks of raw material on a near weekly basis. I have supply lines feeding me materials, why do i need to go crack planets and astroids for raw materials?

i don't see factories being produced right over Ore mines or sky scrappers built only next to stone quarries... why does a death star sized project have to be any diffrent? in honosty it doesn't it is cheaper to produce parts else where and have them shipped... which is why they do just that.

in the SW movie, the moon planet of Endor isn't plowed over and filled with factories, you don't see space forges processing raw material finished materials are built else where and shipped here.

no matter how large the project is, that is How they do it.
From Car to Battleship, from space station to death star. build it in already existing factories in smaller peices, ship them to the job site to be assembled there.


the logistics are already in place for those factories to produce the goods and with faster than light travel it is more than possible to get finished products to the site.

getting the factorys build to make the finshed product is the EASY part of building moon sized stations, finding the shit you need to build them at ALL is the hard part. and as i clearly showed abolve if you build your house of bricks in the sand pit your gunna do it alot faster than if you try and ship that sand to a factory that makes bricks then ship it too the sight of the house afterwords.


the RAW MATERIALS to build the stations arent gunna come from mars. logic says its MUCH more efficent to move the factorys to the supply than try and ship the supply to the factory when we are talking about things of this size.

um, no its not.
with FTL Resource logistics means next to nothing. i can pull resources from a dead system 3 stars over and have it here with in hours. i can take that resource ship it to a factory on one planet to produce it into finished goods, i can then ship that all to my build site.


why would i want to try and take all that and put it all on site? it would be a nightmare cost wise.

and the second point your totaly missing is the scale of what we are talking about, it isnt just a million poinds of sand, its a giga-zillion pounds of sand. to make ANYTHING of a moon size mass, you need a moon size mass (at least) of raw materials to even start. so again i ask you, where does MARS get the raw materials from? you dont just 'ship in' a fucking moons worth of raw materials from the local wal-mart. its not like you can call the local home improvment supply guys and say ......... "yeah i want a moons worth of indestructotainum and can you have that to me by next monday?" and furthermore its not like there are efven whole planets floating around made of nothing but indestructotainum you could use. how do you get a moons sized mass of indestructotainum, when MOST of a given planet, commet, or asteroid is made up of common dirt? unless you have a magic machine that can turn dirt too indestructotainum you cant do it at all. or at best you would need to destroy millions of planets to get that much mass for ONE station. if 2% of a planet is made up of indestructotainum (a gift from me too you in and of itself) you would need to destroy and mine 50 planets too get ONE station worth of raw material.

too give you an idea of what im getting at ............. all the gold mined by mankind ever in our entire history would only make a house about the size of the whitehouse. assuming that indestructotainum is atleast as rare as gold, how long would it take to get enough of it to build a moon sized battle station?

i'm not arguing this at all... i'm confused as to why you think it is impossible.

it takes 5 or even 50 planets worth of raw material to make a space station out of a rare element like gold or 'idestructotainum' or what ever metal xyz you want. yeah, that is reasonable.

a forge world is supplied by 800 worlds with nothing but strip mines searching for raw material like the metal you desire. these resources are shipped to the forge world on a near constant basis in huge freighters. With warp travel it takes little more than a week for these resources to get to the forge world.

1) not getting this are you? those organs that are implaneted into men to make them space marines? ........... they can be cloned. in fact thats what it means to take the 'gene-seed' in the 40K universe. they take the DNA and use it too CLONE the organs they put into the next SM.

and not only this but the Empire doesnt have to screen common people hoping to get a good canidate for a SM, they can clone the Marines themselves, then use the gene-seed, clone the orgtans that MAKES a space marine a space marine and .......... like i said before your now rolling billions of space marine clones off a production line.

if its living tissue of any kind ............ it can be cloned. this includes the space marines themselves AND the gene-seed organs

i don't think you understand how cloning works. and you are simply assuming that it works wonderfully for the Galatic empire to the point that they can flash clone (which is wildly incorrect) creating entities in mear moments.


the Galatic empire can not clone Space marines.
there are too many variables which prohibit it to any one whom lacks the technology.

and even when you get everything right, there is still a wild card aspect which can kick you in the head for no reason. that is why Space marines are the best of the best, as only the best of the best survive.

why it wouldn't work-
The Gene-seed organs are synthetic genetic material. such material is near impossible to clone through invasive measures. this common genetic cloning involves taking the strands you know and replacing strands you don't know with genetic material from a closely related source, thus allowing you to create a complete strand. because synthetic strands have no related source, this is impossible to do. you can only second guess at the billions of possible cominations to try and come up with the correct code.

even if you where able to replicate the technology, harvest the data and start producing your own gene-seed organs you run into the second problem. these organs don't work. simply attaching these things to the human body would be just as effective as sewing a liver onto your ankle. the only way these organs work is when certian chemicals and treatments are applied to the individual after the individual organs have matured which may take years in some cases.

the last major hurdle you run into is its success rate. the gene seeds have a high mortality rate. even as clones, the body does not absolutely copy the host. subtle changes exist inbetween clones. the clones all have their individual personalities, and some prove to be better than others in the star wars universe, gaining rank or being more skilled over other clones despite being identical in every aspect. and these subtle changes are things which decide weither or not the entire thing is a success.

why it doesn't work as you describe it-
Clones themselves take 2 years to gestate and be made into functional troops.
the processing of the organs, treatments, and surgery take 1-2 years to do.
a majority of the organs do not mature for 2 years, some taking 5 or even 10 years to fully mature.

and all of this doesn't take into account things such as the amount of time it takes to get to this stage from a research perspective. deciphering the Space marine genome, and figuring out a way to replecate the gene-seed organs...

you are looking at a good 10-20 years before you see even small detachments of these super clone troopers.

 

[Wyatt]

.... just, your arguments are staggering because you disregarding logic to a point of insanity.


i thought i explained it well enough for any one to understand.

i did not confuse fighters with anything, you see, because things like Frigates, Corvettes, and gun ships are considered Ships by all definiton, but are not considered capital ships. in my comparison between the fleets i broke it down and pulled the size of the Capital ships alone to hold against each other.

Standard Fleet group of the Galatic Empire has 24 capital ships. often these are all Imperial class star destroyers. but not all of them as you still have other Cruisers and carriers which are classified as capital ships as well.

So as i stated in my orginal post 16 of these vessels are the Imperial class star destroyer. 8 of them is a mixture of other capital ships such carriers and assault cruisers. i then compared this of a standard battlefleet of the Imperium's Capital ships Also alone. which consists of 65 (my list) capital ships, with nothing being smaller than a 2 km long cruiser.

recheck your numbers. seriously if you want to go on go read your OWN link and recheck your numbers.

ill give you the straight point in a nut shell though and perhaps save time.

squadron: was the smallest independent operating unit in the Imperial Navy. Composed by several lines, a squadron was commanded by an admiral and ranged from 14 to 60 ships

systems force: Force superiority pooled at least three battle squadrons and a light squadron. With a minimum of three Imperial-class Star Destroyers and nearly 90 other starships

fleet: six Imperial-class Star Destroyers and almost 400 other starships

Sector group: A sector group could be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which were Star Destroyers.

strategic command (these ships are what one could call either reserve ships or special strike groups, they are seperate from regular line units) Black Sword Command was a regional command that defended the Core regions from threats eminating from the galactic rim. It had three Super Star Destroyers as part of its fleet assets.[14] Azure Hammer Command, based out of Anaxes, defended Sector Zero and consisted of 57 capital ships, led by the Super Star Destroyer Whelm.[15] Additionally, a full ten percent of the entire Imperial Navy was kept in reserve in the Core Worlds, so as to be able to quickly respond to threats throughout the galaxy.[16] In the Outer Rim Territories, a fleet with at least 19 Imperial-class Star Destroyers and three Immobilizer 418 cruisers, the latter supplied by Imperial Drydock IV, was also kept

The Imperial Navy :The most recognizable symbol of the Imperial Starfleet was the Imperial-class Star Destroyer, which peaked at over twenty-five thousand vessels, Additionally, countless shipyards supplied the Imperial Starfleet with support ships such as Carrack-class light cruisers, Lancer-class frigates, Strike-class cruisers, and escort carriers. although millions of *starships of different designs were fielded for various purposes.

*seems clear that fighters must have been a part of the total count of those 'millions of ships'

anyhow the ISD was a match for anything the 40K boys could whip up, and the Empire had 25,000 of them.

anyhow THIS [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy] is the best i could find on the actual breakdown on how the Imperial fleet is made up.

basicaly its like this: The Imperial Navy is split into several fleets. These fleets generally have the task of safeguarding the sector after which they are named, for example Battlefleet Gothic will be protecting the Gothic Sector.

The fleets are usually made three distinct types of ships: battleships, cruisers and escorts.

Battleships are huge ships, with enormous amounts of weapons and shields, and are usually the command position for the Admiral of the Fleet. Although very powerful, battleships are slow to maneuver.

The majority of a fleet will be comprised of cruisers. Though not as powerful as a battleship, cruisers are much faster and can still deliver a deadly blow. There are several different types of cruiser, including those that are specialized towards destroying heavily armoured targets, and those that have large fighter bays along their sides.

Escort ships are the smallest type of ship in the Imperial Navy star fleets. They can usually be seen traveling in squadrons of 3 to 5, though larger squadrons are not that uncommon. The main task of the escort ships is to draw fire away from the capital ships so that they can get into position quickly and safely.

as you can see there isnt much hard detail on how many total ships the Imperium has, nor is there any detail on how the total number could be broken down. in other words how big is a sector fleet, how big is a system fleet, how big is a simply planet assault fleet and so on. i guess untill you can provide a link to this information than there isnt much else to go on. ive got so far, "the GE has millionS of ships" with a breakdown of fleets sizes and ive got the IoM has 'sector fleets'. no ship count at all of any kind except taht escort ships travel in squadrons of 3 - 5.

where in the hell does all this math come from and what does it even have to do with anything?




and i honostly don't know where in the hell you got that sector fleet number...
the numbers of sector fleets are not identified by the number of ships you have but the area of space they cover. nor do i see what it has to do with anything.

see above. i didnt pull those nubers out of my ass i took them from your link. and no a 'sector fleet' isnt JUST based on the area its based on the SIZE of the fleet as well. any fleet with X number of ships is a 'sector fleet', with or without an actuual sector too patroll.

yeah... the thousands of Mine worlds at the beckon call of a single forge world... comunitively they provide moon sized chunks of raw material on a near weekly basis. I have supply lines feeding me materials, why do i need to go crack planets and astroids for raw materials?

i don't see factories being produced right over Ore mines or sky scrappers built only next to stone quarries... why does a death star sized project have to be any diffrent? in honosty it doesn't it is cheaper to produce parts else where and have them shipped... which is why they do just that.

in the SW movie, the moon planet of Endor isn't plowed over and filled with factories, you don't see space forges processing raw material finished materials are built else where and shipped here.

no matter how large the project is, that is How they do it.
From Car to Battleship, from space station to death star. build it in already existing factories in smaller peices, ship them to the job site to be assembled there.


the logistics are already in place for those factories to produce the goods and with faster than light travel it is more than possible to get finished products to the site.

your loopy. a moon sized space station isnt a car. the logistics issue for making a car is how to get the finished parts together and actualy make the product, the logistics of a fucking MOON sized space station is how to get the raw materials in the first place.

when your 'car' is 5,000,000,000,000 times larger than your factory and you need to blow up and mine whole fucking planets to get the shit to make the frame for it THEN id say you have a point.

um, no its not.
with FTL Resource logistics means next to nothing. i can pull resources from a dead system 3 stars over and have it here with in hours. i can take that resource ship it to a factory on one planet to produce it into finished goods, i can then ship that all to my build site.


why would i want to try and take all that and put it all on site? it would be a nightmare cost wise.

what are you gunna move it with? your talking about moving PLANET sized mases with dump trucks. i mean Jesus think about it. if you could build a ship large enough to move a planets worth of mass from one system to another then just put guns on your fucking dump truck and call it a day. you would need to strip mine millions of total planets just to get the shit to make your DUMP TRUCKS from. your 'logistics chain' becomes a whole production nightmare all on its own. how many worlds would you need JUST building 'dump trucks' to get enough to provide transport for planet sized masses of raw materials?

all your 'forge worlds' would need 50 years to just make the ships to move the raw materials around. by the time they got the fucking fleet of 'dump trucks' built you would be out of planets to build space stations with.

i'm not arguing this at all... i'm confused as to why you think it is impossible.

it takes 5 or even 50 planets worth of raw material to make a space station out of a rare element like gold or 'idestructotainum' or what ever metal xyz you want. yeah, that is reasonable.

a forge world is supplied by 800 worlds with nothing but strip mines searching for raw material like the metal you desire. these resources are shipped to the forge world on a near constant basis in huge freighters. With warp travel it takes little more than a week for these resources to get to the forge world.

see above.

i don't think you understand how cloning works. and you are simply assuming that it works wonderfully for the Galatic empire to the point that they can flash clone (which is wildly incorrect) creating entities in mear moments.


the Galatic empire can not clone Space marines.
there are too many variables which prohibit it to any one whom lacks the technology.

and even when you get everything right, there is still a wild card aspect which can kick you in the head for no reason. that is why Space marines are the best of the best, as only the best of the best survive.

why it wouldn't work-
The Gene-seed organs are synthetic genetic material. such material is near impossible to clone through invasive measures. this common genetic cloning involves taking the strands you know and replacing strands you don't know with genetic material from a closely related source, thus allowing you to create a complete strand. because synthetic strands have no related source, this is impossible to do. you can only second guess at the billions of possible cominations to try and come up with the correct code.

even if you where able to replicate the technology, harvest the data and start producing your own gene-seed organs you run into the second problem. these organs don't work. simply attaching these things to the human body would be just as effective as sewing a liver onto your ankle. the only way these organs work is when certian chemicals and treatments are applied to the individual after the individual organs have matured which may take years in some cases.

the last major hurdle you run into is its success rate. the gene seeds have a high mortality rate. even as clones, the body does not absolutely copy the host. subtle changes exist inbetween clones. the clones all have their individual personalities, and some prove to be better than others in the star wars universe, gaining rank or being more skilled over other clones despite being identical in every aspect. and these subtle changes are things which decide weither or not the entire thing is a success.

why it doesn't work as you describe it-
Clones themselves take 2 years to gestate and be made into functional troops.
the processing of the organs, treatments, and surgery take 1-2 years to do.
a majority of the organs do not mature for 2 years, some taking 5 or even 10 years to fully mature.

and all of this doesn't take into account things such as the amount of time it takes to get to this stage from a research perspective. deciphering the Space marine genome, and figuring out a way to replecate the gene-seed organs...

you are looking at a good 10-20 years before you see even small detachments of these super clone troopers.

your pulling numbers out of your ass again. why would it take more than 2 years for the GE to clone a marine and his organs? why ...... just because it takes the cluster fuck of the IoM years to clone an organ do you think it would take the Empire that long?

the Empire clones armys, the IoM 4 bazillion years ago figured out how to clone ...... something, and called it a gene-seed, then forgot how to do it again outside of mindless following of religious semi-mystical nonsence that 15 people in the entire universe can only do because they have the instruction book (those guys from a trillion years ago wrote for them) burned into their hand as a tatoo.

im telling you that the Empire does cloning and does it well, its like they are building cameras lets say, and the IoM follows doctrin and doesnt have any more clue about how what they are doing works than a monky understands a camera even if you can somehow teach him how to take a picture.

i will say though that while you cant say that the Empire CANT clone either a SM or its organs, or even that they cant do it in less than 20 years, i cant actualy say they CAN either.

my common sense tells me they could. after all, if its living tissue of any kind ............ it can be cloned. they arent just USING cloning tech they developed it from scratch and continue to improve it. so ive no doubts that while an IoM 'priest' is mumbling and muttering his spells and praying to the Emperor in hopes that 'god' will bless his cloing tanks and make them work because he doesnt even understand where the pretty bright lights on their casing come from, the clone techs of the Empire are building those tanks, and researching ways to make them better.

this whole last part about cloing is based on opinion though so perhaps we could just agree to disagree and let it alone?

 

[Pyro Paul]

Wikipedia sayz:

Imperial Fleets
The Imperium is divided into five "Segmenta": Solar, Obscurus, Pacificus, Tempestus and Ultima. Every ship of the Imperial Navy is assigned to one of these Segmenta, and falls under the command of the respective Lord High Admiral.

In turn, each Segmentum is divided into "sectors", regions of space that are generally cube-shaped and contain 8 million cubic light years of space. These sectors contain multiple sub-sectors, collections of star systems no more than twenty light years in radius. The ships of each Segmentum are divided amongst the sectors. These Battlefleets are assigned the task of safeguarding the sector they are assigned to, each Battlefleet is generally named after the sector it is assigned to (Battlefleet Gothic is located in the Gothic sector, Battlefleet Cadia is located in the Cadian sector, etc).

Each Battlefleet is assigned a number of cruisers and battleships, usually between fifty and seventy-five vessels. The Battlefleets are also assigned multiple squadrons of escort starships, and is also in command of a large number of transports, messenger craft, orbital defences, space platforms and system patrol vessels. The ships of a Battlefleet must constantly patrol their sector and fulfil a variety of roles; protect merchant shipping from pirates, transport Imperial Guard regiments to warzones, escort Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator fleets and provide orbital support for invading or defending armies.

Because of the vast space that requires policing, the Battlefleet is normally split into detachments consisting of one or two cruisers, accompanied by a squadron of escorts. If a particular situation is more than a detachment can handle, additional detachments are called in to reinforce.

On occasion, a Battlefleet can be formed to operate in a smaller area. Battlefleet Armageddon is assigned solely to the Armageddon sub-sector, and, prior to the Third War for Armageddon, was made up of four battleships, twenty-seven cruisers and thirty six squadrons of escorts. Battlefleet Solar is assigned specifically to the Solar System, and is primarily charged with defending the two holy worlds of Terra and Mars.

of course, i could lead you to more specific things which speak more clearly, but you would have to buy the BattleFleet Gothic rule codex as it it the rule book that outlines the fleet composition when playing the table top Battlefleet game.

in this one example, a single battle fleet is assigned to a specific sub sector (battlefleet armageddon) and was armed with 4 battleships, 27 cruisers, and 36 squadrons of escorts (5-8 if destroyers/cruisers, 12-24 if corvettes/gun ships) having 29 capital ships and 180-870 ships as escort. this number does not count the 5-10 squadrons of fighters/bombers attached to individual battleships/carriers, or the 1-3 squadrons attached to crusiers

a larger fleet is stationed around Holy Terra and Mars but has a compherable composition to it. generally, as provided by the Battlefleet gothic codex, fleets will have a composition as i mentioned above with the 65 ships (that is a fleet composition my friend which plays TT Battlefleet gothic is trying to make)



if you want to develope a number of the size of the fleet as a whole. generally 75-125 battle fleets defend each segmentum (depending on proximity to specific dangers, like the eye or terror) and there are 5 segementums which divide the imperum up. you are looking at a good 500 battle fleets spread across the imperum of man. and that is only taking into consideration the Imperium of man. the Adeptus Astartes fleets are not in these numbers as they work independently from the Segmentum command.

your loopy. a moon sized space station isnt a car. the logistics issue for making a car is how to get the finished parts together and actualy make the product, the logistics of a fucking MOON sized space station is how to get the raw materials in the first place.

when your 'car' is 5,000,000,000,000 times larger than your factory and you need to blow up and mine whole fucking planets to get the shit to make the frame for it THEN id say you have a point.

um, no its not.
with FTL Resource logistics means next to nothing. i can pull resources from a dead system 3 stars over and have it here with in hours. i can take that resource ship it to a factory on one planet to produce it into finished goods, i can then ship that all to my build site.

why would i want to try and take all that and put it all on site? it would be a nightmare cost wise.

what are you gunna move it with? your talking about moving PLANET sized mases with dump trucks. i mean Jesus think about it. if you could build a ship large enough to move a planets worth of mass from one system to another then just put guns on your fucking dump truck and call it a day. you would need to strip mine millions of total planets just to get the shit to make your DUMP TRUCKS from. your 'logistics chain' becomes a whole production nightmare all on its own. how many worlds would you need JUST building 'dump trucks' to get enough to provide transport for planet sized masses of raw materials?

all your 'forge worlds' would need 50 years to just make the ships to move the raw materials around. by the time they got the fucking fleet of 'dump trucks' built you would be out of planets to build space stations with.

you know absolutely nothing about construction.

Nothing in the entire space station of the Death star is larger than 1 km across. i can have 5 transport vessles ship 200 million metal struts in a single day processed in a factoires on a planets which already them keyed to produce these struts. you are not moving planet sized chunks... your moving car sized chunks, things no bigger than a km. you then assemble them like a massive lego set.

It is like you think that the smallest you can construct it is a Hemisphere at a time...

i'm not shipping moon sized chunks... i'm shipping .001% chunks of material at a time. and if i have 1000 ships which go at a time, that means in 1 shipment i have 1% of the mass required. only 100 more shipments like that and i'll have enough mass to construct the entire thing.


i don't see how resources are a problem... i have thousands of worlds providing resources to my single forge world. as a whole, Every day i'm shipped a moon sized chunk of raw material. it is like a Factory in any part of the world. materials are mined else where and shipped to the factory to be processed and made into something. it is the same exact concept save for a million times bigger. i have no doubt that the Empire has their factories being supplied by like sized resource lines.


i already have the ships, i already have the logistics in place, because this forge world has been here for over 30 thousand years.

by doing what you said, building your death star construction set in the middle of a dead system YOU have to follow the rules of building a fleet to transport materials as well as follow the rules of building factories to process that material. I already have the factories, i already have the fleet, and i already have the resources i require coming in.

your pulling numbers out of your ass again. why would it take more than 2 years for the GE to clone a marine and his organs? why ...... just because it takes the cluster fuck of the IoM years to clone an organ do you think it would take the Empire that long?

because thats how long the Star wars universe defines it. they have a 2 year gestation and training period. because they are effectively born as normal children but feed growth hormones to accelerate their growth then trained once old enough, even with every thing accelerated it takes 2 years to produce a clone from start to finish.

the numbers for the organs are provided by the space marine codex adding in the difficulty the galatic empire would run into by not having any the understanding of their technology.

even if they where able to clone the organs (which is impossible) the organs are 'programmed' to take that long to gestate and mature to ensure that it functions properly. there is no way around it.

further more, the Imperum of Man doesn't clone them. new organs are grown on special facilities on Holy Terra and Mars using the data provided by one of the gene seeds. that is because cloning synthetic organs is impossible.


and no, you can not clone 'any living tissue'
again, learn more about cloning.

there is no such thing as flash cloning or copy machine cloning where an identical individual is produced in every aspect in mear seconds.


you are just falling victim to the star wars 'Lolz-Science!' effect. where you assume that science makes it possible... Light sabers are a prime example of this... light just doesn't stop.

of course i always find light sabers intresting...

it can cut through steel blast doors 4 feet thick, only grazes living flesh? it can slice off your arm, but only burns the surface of chest?

 

[Wyatt]

Wikipedia sayz:

so we hav established then that the IoM isnt larger and more powerful than the GE's fleet?

you know absolutely nothing about construction.

Nothing in the entire space station of the Death star is larger than 1 km across. i can have 5 transport vessles ship 200 million metal struts in a single day processed in a factoires on a planets which already them keyed to produce these struts. you are not moving planet sized chunks... your moving car sized chunks, things no bigger than a km. you then assemble them like a massive lego set.

It is like you think that the smallest you can construct it is a Hemisphere at a time...

i'm not shipping moon sized chunks... i'm shipping .001% chunks of material at a time. and if i have 1000 ships which go at a time, that means in 1 shipment i have 1% of the mass required. only 100 more shipments like that and i'll have enough mass to construct the entire thing.


i don't see how resources are a problem... i have thousands of worlds providing resources to my single forge world. as a whole, Every day i'm shipped a moon sized chunk of raw material. it is like a Factory in any part of the world. materials are mined else where and shipped to the factory to be processed and made into something. it is the same exact concept save for a million times bigger. i have no doubt that the Empire has their factories being supplied by like sized resource lines.


i already have the ships, i already have the logistics in place, because this forge world has been here for over 30 thousand years.

by doing what you said, building your death star construction set in the middle of a dead system YOU have to follow the rules of building a fleet to transport materials as well as follow the rules of building factories to process that material. I already have the factories, i already have the fleet, and i already have the resources i require coming in.

ok one more try and im done.

listen close now, ill type slow.

i know that nothing on the DS is very large when its broken down into its componant parts. but your just not taking scale into its proper concideration.

you say Nothing in the entire space station of the Death star is larger than 1 km across. i can have 5 transport vessles ship 200 million metal struts in a single day

im telling you that you will NOT have 5 <----- FIVE ships able to transport 200,000,000, 1Km struts in a single day. you MIGHT have 500 ships transport 10, 1KM struts each in a day for a TOTAL of 5000 struts. obviously more ships = more struts , but again more ships to move struts is more resources to build those ships or keep them maintained once built.

your just not taking scale into account and it seems like its YOU that stuck in stupid when you come down with the 'because its space' logic your tossing around. its also YOU that is being retarded when you say that 5 <---- FIVE ships are gunna move 40 MILLION Kms worth of struts a day EACH single ship. the ships would have to be the size of the fucking station your trying to build to be able to do that, and if the ships ARE that big just put guns on THEM instead of building the station.

your idea that you can build the billions of 'small' componats all over the place and just ship them to a central location and start snaping stations together like leggo bricks is so ignorant as to border on the flat out stupid. your method would be like trying to build a REAL castle by using matchbox sized dump trucks to move grains of sand from a beach on the other side of the planet FIRST to 'factorys' scatered all over the place and then using those same matchbox trucks to move the finished stones to the build location.

your just not taking into account the scale we are talking about. you DONT move 1% of the total mass in one day, you move .0000001% of the total mass a week with your entire fleet.


now thats not all. soething else to think about. when i said if your 'car' is 50 billion times the size of your factory then youd have a point, you obviously missed what i was saying totaly. you can move the ENTIRE supply of 'parts factorys' and the final build 'factorys' THEMSELVES from one location to another for MUCH less effort than it would take to move the raw materials. in other words when your dealing with planet sized finished products it would be eaiser to move then factorys themselves to the raw materials than to move the materials to the factorys. every single thing your using to build one of these space stations, ALL of it, the factorys, the housing, the fleets of 'dump trucks' ALL of it could be moves with a billions times less effort than just moving the raw materials for ONE station. hell everything you need , EVERYTHING could be housed with eash inside your space station when its done.

picture your finished 'cars' trunk being large enough to house each factory that made parts for it as well as, every person whos worked in those factorys own home town including all the hospitals, grocery stores, individual houses, movie theaters, pubs, and so on, AND the trains , planes, and trucks used to move those parts THEN you might get a proper sense of scale.

NOW, you may be right, you have a supply system in place allready to build these stations on mars, but you can build 8 of them in 2 years. now back to the point, while your supply station is working flat out to build 8 stations in 2 years.

'black sword' and all the OTHER ship yards the Empire has are moved to the location of the raw materials and start building on location. they dont need to ship the 500,000,000,000,000 1KM struts anyplace. they are built on the locations where they will be used. you dont move the raw materials you move the FACTORYS themselves in this scale. and when you strip mine out a solar system you simply move the FACTORYS to the next one, with THIS method of production your not limited by the bottle neck of one finishing planet or the further bottle neck of lack of transport to move the parts from one system to another, the parts are made IN PLACE and the final station is built IN PLACE.

your entire logistics chain, EVERTHING you need to make a Death Star, EVERTHING, is about at most 1% of the total mass of the finished station. its far, far, far, far, far, far, smarter to move the factorys too the raw materials than it is to try and move those raw materials TOO the factorys.

and keep in mind this because you seem to either want to ignore it or just dont seem to grasp basic mass issues but its the key to my whole point. i dont care how small you break down the individual pieces of a battle station, (or how large for that matter) when all is said and done, you have to SOMEHOW move a moons worth of mass from one location to another. wether you do that as 1Km struts or you do it as a whole Hemisphere in the END you are moving the same MASS of materials. with my factorys setting in the same place as the raw materials, churing out 1km struts by the boat load, and with my finishing 'factorys' in the same place welding those struts into a finished station i only have to move all that mass of material a few Kms, while YOUR system has to move that mass all over the entire fucking Empire.

and i can build these ship yards in hundereds of systems if need be. and build these stations all over the empire at the SAME TIME, while YOUR stuck with the bottle neck of moving all your crap around from system to system and eventualy to mars. my 'ship yard' has the same ability to turn out moon sized space stations as mars does, but MINE can be moved, mars cant. i can build MORE of the 'ship yards', you cant build more mars's. so while your stuck with one planet able to build a DS, ive got hundereds or thousands of 'ship yards' moving around the galaxy building DS EACH AT THE SAME TIME.

ill tell you what, ill give you 10 forge worlds and your entire chain of supply systems allredy in place, you give me 10 ship yards and we can have a race. because ill order those ship yards to build a copy of itself. 3 months later i have 20 ship yards, 3 months after that i have 40, 3 months after that i have 80, now i order 60 of those 80 to go build death stars, and the other 20 to keep copying themselvs. so every 3 months my number of ship yards double and after 2 years i have 60 Death stars coming online and your forge worlds have made 80 doom fortresses .............. sounds ok for your side right? ok 2 years after THAT i now have 5,120 ship yards making Death stars (recall those 20 i left replicating themselves? turns out the can make 5120 copys of themselves in 20 years). you still have 10 forge worlds.

so while your still making 80 battle stations every 2 years im now making 5180 every 2 years, and the longer this goes on, the more ship yards i build and the farther behind you get. i could spend 3 months having every one of my 5000 ship yards just replicate itself and now 3 months later i can build 10,360 death stars every 2 years......... too your 80

AND im not lumbered with having to keep massive fleets of freighters working like you are, since i dont have to ship anything anyplace its all build on location. the only thing im gunna 'ship' anyplace is those 5000 death stars to mars and blow you to hell.

get it NOW?

because thats how long the Star wars universe defines it. they have a 2 year gestation and training period. because they are effectively born as normal children but feed growth hormones to accelerate their growth then trained once old enough, even with every thing accelerated it takes 2 years to produce a clone from start to finish.

ok so far

the numbers for the organs are provided by the space marine codex adding in the difficulty the galatic empire would run into by not having any the understanding of their technology.

first problem for you. the GE doesnt need to understand the Imperiums tech, the GE uses its OWN clone tech.

even if they where able to clone the organs (which is impossible) the organs are 'programmed' to take that long to gestate and mature to ensure that it functions properly. there is no way around it.

says who? the GE can change the 'programing' , after all they UNDERSTAND their tech unlike the Imperium.

further more, the Imperum of Man doesn't clone them. new organs are grown on special facilities on Holy Terra and Mars using the data provided by one of the gene seeds. that is because cloning synthetic organs is impossible.

impossible for the Imperium, but what about the Empire? after all the empire understand THEIR tech.

and no, you can not clone 'any living tissue'
again, learn more about cloning.

we can clone stem cells NOW that can be 'turned' into any other kind of cell. so yes you can clone any living tissue, we can do that NOW, TODAY, with OUR tech.

there is no such thing as flash cloning or copy machine cloning where an identical individual is produced in every aspect in mear seconds.

agreed, i never said there was. in fact i used the 2 year 'limit' myself. im content to accept it would take 2 years to clone a Space Marine. you say i cant be done at ALL though and that is where we part company. for the simple reason that you just make ship up.

you say the GE cant clone organs, i say WE can clone any kind of tissue right now today on earth in 2009, sure we cant clone whole working organs, but we can clone any kind of cell in the human body as we speak. give us 40,000 years to work on it and im comfortable saying that we COULD 'flash clone' a person as easy as saying 'computer we need another 40,000 marines' and a bright light and a low hum and our new army pops onto the replicator plate and marches off too war.

and another thing while im at it......... define what 'synthetic organs' is supposed to mean. are they living tissue or are they machines? because in EITHER case im also very comfortable that the GE could not only figure out how to make them, but to figure out how to make them BETTER. .............. after all the GE understand show THEIR tech works.

you are just falling victim to the star wars 'Lolz-Science!' effect. where you assume that science makes it possible... Light sabers are a prime example of this... light just doesn't stop.

of course i always find light sabers intresting...

it can cut through steel blast doors 4 feet thick, only grazes living flesh? it can slice off your arm, but only burns the surface of chest?

this i can totaly agree with you on. im not however 'falling victim' to any 'because its space' effect. the truth is that in this chatt YOU have tryed to pull things out of your ass far more than i have. you have insisted that the GE who can clone entire armys in years wouldnt be able to figure out this vast secret of gene-seed organs......... doesnt even make sence, to even the pro 40K guys. cloning is cloneing and the Space marines are just bigger stronger tougher men, with a few modifications and additions too/of organs, if you can clone a man you can clone a space marine special organs and all.

you also think that bulding planet sized space stations is in the same class as building cars and DVD players. what with the OMG DEWD ITS MARS , THEY CAN BUILD ANYTHING IN 15 MINUTS INCLUDING A COFFIE BREAK !!1111!. wanna know why the DS II was built at endor? because the raw materials were there. wanna know why the FIRST death star was built around a prison planet? ........ because the raw materials were there. because anyone with an ounce of common sense and 2 minuts of even semi logical thought can see its much more efficent to move the factorys to location than to move the raw materials to factorys when we are talking about planet sized building projects.

in fact, everything we are talking about NOW seems to be to be classic example of 'because its space' effect from YOUR side. cant clone Space Marines because ........ what? they are made from eye of newt and wing of bat and requires special prayers to the Emperior? the gene-seed program is just 'magic' that any half compitent cloning lab couldnt replicate? that cloning works different or special in the 40K universe and nothing at all like we ALLREADY understand it in our very OWN day and age?

you firther want to hold onot the myth of the uber super duper mars nonsence. when in our OWN age we know enough to build gold mines next to the gold, and iron factorys next to iron mines. you want to mine gold in Iowa from a gold mine in central asia with your system. all because you dont want to admit that the whole idea of forge worlds and mars is a really stupid one? if that is the case you missed the point of it in the first place. its SUPPOSED Too be stupid. its one of the things ....... the FEW things that puts limits on the 40K universe. it took me ....... and average joe net flunky to come up with a different system of how to build space stations about 15 minuts. and my system gives me 5000 space stations to your 80 in less than 4 years. you really think that the people who would be involved with actualy DOING the things we are talking about wouldnt see the aadvantage of MY system over yours in the same time frame? you know WHY mars is the core basis for production in the 40K universe, do you know WHY games workshop made it a part of the lore of the unverse that they 'lost their tech'? because if they didnt have this limit than they would rule the universe in 20 minuts flat. i mean Jesus they are ALLREADY so over the top powerful, if you give them an intact tech and R&D ability too there are literaly no limits.

your arguing loosing points because you need to defend the 40K lore against basic logic, when even the guys that wrote that lore would be laughing at you at this point.

sure alot of things in the Star Wars universe dont make much sense, but neither does the 40K crap as ive shown. and im not defending the more stupid aspects of Star Wars im just applying common sense to our chatt. YOUR the one saying that cloning wont work in 40K the same way it works in OUR world today. falling back on the 'magic of gene-seed' to try and come up with some reason that the GE couldnt just swarm the 40K boys under with clones of their OWN shock troops, your also arguing basic logistics principals that apply in our OWN lives to defend the idiotic notion of the uba 'forge worlds' concept. a concept i might add is only in place at all as a imposed limit by games workshop as a stop gape to explane why the Imperium doesnt ALLREADY own the univers. after all with an intact tech base and a logical production ability nothing would stand in their way.

just think about it.

 

[Pyro Paul]

seriously then.
since you are so keen on saying that the mass transfer is impossible.
lets do the math.

the Death star is 900km in diameter.
if the volume was made purely of solid steel it would require 304 million cubic tons of steel to make. Now, i am not entirely sure about star wars cargo ships, but most Imperium of Man space feighters have a cargo capacity of 1 million cubic tons minimum.

and i have a fleet of 500 of these, as well as other super feighters which can go up to 10 million tons in cargo capacity.

so... with my fleet, in one shipment, i can ship 500+ million Tons of solid steel to my forge world.

to construct a death star, i only require 304 million. leaving me ~200 million left over.


shipment time is 1 month between resource planet and forge world. even if i where to have all of my fleet start in orbit around mars, in 2 months i would have enough material required to construct the space moon.


It isn't exactly hard to produce such a sized project for the Galatic Empire in a 6 month-1 year time frame... the only reason it really takes 2+ years to construct the death star is mearly because they are attempting to keep some secret about this weapon. so shipments bounce around taking longer to reach their destination.

now to the shipyard non-sense.
for some reason you are forgetting logistics and basic physics even though you just get done trying to argue that i need to move some 4 quatrillion tons of mass to build a moon shaped object and that it is some how impossible to move such an amount of mass.

1. a Ship yard is NOT a factory. it can not produce the components required to produce a Death Star. it can serve as a hub for ships which bring such materials to the site, but it can not process raw materials or produced finished goods on any real scale.

2. You need Factories, Foundries, Forges, smelting plants and a whole host of other things in order to process raw material and transform it into finished products.

3. Factories, Foundries, forges, and smelting plants MUST be placed with in a gravity well. the chemical and molecular exchange to process almost all ores into metals. further more, it requires a rather decent gravitational in order to remove impurities to a compherable level which is useful for construction.


again... this is not an RTS, 1 ship yard does not equial 1 death star.
a single death star requires hundreds to thousands of factories and support structures for production. a ship yard is not these things.

you could have 5,000,000 ship yards... none of them are going to be producing Death stars by themselves.




Genetics.

That isn't how cloning works.
infact, the WH40k universe doesn't use cloning. new organs are grown in special facilities... not cloned from existing material. this is because you can not clone synthetic genomes, this is because with in the synthetic code there are commands which are unique and forign to the all genetics. for instance, the programmed maturing limit is hidden with in the genetic code.

and really, it is wether or not they understand the WH40k Technology, not weither or not they understand the Starwars technology. Tech from the Dark ages in WH40k are far more advanced than all of the tech represented in the Star Wars extended universe... does the star wars scientists understand complex genetics where instructions are programmed into the DNA itself?

honostly, it doesn't look like that... the genetics presented in the SW universe doesn't seem to be that much more advanced than our own.


and again... just because it is organic does not mean it can be cloned.
you can not Clone a WH40k Ork. and it is organic.



to your last tid bit.

do you want to know why the DS2 was built around endor
because it is the ass end of no where. no one goes through it, and there is no real reason to visit. that means when you develope a Secret Star Base super weapon, it tends to stay a secret.

Where are the smelting factories to extract the raw material?
where are the foundries to process the raw materials?
where are the factories to transform those materials into goods?
where are the astroid sized chunks of raw material waiting to be processed?
where is this infamous 'shipyard' which is constructing this death star by itself?

you want to know why you don't see them?
Because they don't exist in the same solor system.

parts are produced in factories on hundreds of worlds spread across the empire then shipped to endor to be assembled. That is how Production works. it is faster and more cost effective to do it That way than doing the way you describe.


infact, if this was not kept a secret and allowed to be produced in a traditional star system with better logistics and full support, it probably would of taken less than a year to fully produce the DS2.




my arguments are rooted well in reality... your the one taking massive steps into fantasy really. you require a gravety well to process metel from raw ore. so your mobile space yard construction set is automatically disproven. synthetic genomes are impossible to clone by standard measures, you can only replecate them to the best of your knowledge. this is because standard cloning practices tends to break apart the genome and use common like genomes to trick it into thinking it is complete. but being synthetic it has no 'common' genome... it is perfectly unique and thus is impossible to clone.

and ultimatly, the fact of the matter is, it requires hundreds of thousands of forges to produce a death star. and while your hundred thousand are split across your empire, mine are all sitting comfortably on a single planet. this notion that all of these resources can be processed, refined, and transformed by a single ship yard is just plain wrong.


and your right... nothing could stand in the way of the tech base and production of the imperium... except the Orks whom have compherable tech which works even better because it is instinctual by nature and because of a self genereted field which defies physics, the forces of immaterium which drive men insane and can make even the hardest metals bend and warp like wet paper bags if left fully exposed... the tyranid a hyper accelerated evolutionary race which is effectively one giant vaccume cleaner of death sucking all live, the necrons a force of nigh indestructable robots which Can Not Die bent on making everything else dead, and them selves which because of their religious devotion, corrupt politics, and mindless burracricy end up under minding their own efforts.

 

[Wyatt]

seriously then.
since you are so keen on saying that the mass transfer is impossible.
lets do the math.

the Death star is 900km in diameter.
if the volume was made purely of solid steel it would require 304 million cubic tons of steel to make. Now, i am not entirely sure about star wars cargo ships, but most Imperium of Man space feighters have a cargo capacity of 1 million cubic tons minimum.

thats enough. at this point its like im trying to explane the differences between fission and fusion to a 5 year old. your incapable of understanding this and simply make shit up to establish a 'point'

ill use just this paragraph as my example since i didnt bother reading the rest after this anyhow.

how did you arrive at the number 304 cubic tons from the stations diameter? what the hell is a cubic ton? your using a measure of volume to try and establish a MASS figure? lets try some realistic numbers shall we?

http://rickgold.info/ds/Site/Welcome.html

this guy did some math on the cost of a death star in US dollers. we can skip the cost and just use his mass/volume numbers though.

the relivent parts are these.

So, first off, what do I base this all on? How about some educated, but none the less arbitrary numbers? Lets say that the Death Star is 1/10 mass for volume. That means 1/10 of the total volume of the DS is something other then empty space or air. And lets say, 6/10 of the total volume is pressurized, livable space. If that sounds off to you, to bad, write your own article, otherwise, keep reading.


Using those numbers, lets find what we would need for the most basic of building materials and living requirements, steel and air. Thanks to the internet, we can get all sorts of information on those two things, and come up with fun and impossibly large numbers regarding them!


To start our calculations, we need one very important piece of information, just how big is the DS? Thanks to Jeff Russell at www.merzo.net, and his vast database of speculative Star Ship Dimensions, we have an ?Official? diameter of 160km?s.

now notice right off that hes starting his calculations with the DS only being 160km in diameter not the 900 you spoke of, so his numbers are almost 6 times less than yours would be. anyhow on we go.

That gives us a volume of 17.16 quadrillion cubic meters. At 1/10 volume, we?ll need 1.71 Quadrillion cubic meters of steel, weighing in at 134 quadrillion tonnes.

notice that hes actualy done REAL math here? hes not invented things like cubic tons? he has volume represented by cubic meters and he has MASS represented by tons. so the VOLUME of the death star is 17,160,000,000,000,000 cubic meters, and its MASS is 134,000,000,000,000,000 tons (assuming its made from common steel). now using YOUR freighter size of (ill have to convert this for you since there is no such thing as a cubic ton, again a cube is a measure of volume, and a ton is a measure of mass. two different things) lets say i accept your number and agree that your freighter can haul 1 million tons at a rip (its not that much of a stretch) ....... than you would need 134,000,000,000 loads to move its weight.

but wate theres more

Now how bout the air? Air is largely Nitrogen(80%) and Oxygen(20%), and rather conveniently we can ship it compressed. How much are we going to need? 8.23 quintillion m³ of Nitrogen, and 1.65 quintillion m³ of Oxygen. These compress by a very large factor; we?ll only need to ship 21.06 trillion m³ of Nitrogen, and 1.96 trillion m³ of Oxygen. (Credit 1)

Our Nitrogen is going to weigh in at 17.03 trillion tonnes, and our oxygen will tip the scales at 2.24 trillion tonnes.

so we ALSO need 17,030,000 freighter lodes for the nitrogen and another 2,240,000 freighter loads for the oxygen.

now keep in mind this first off these numbers are almost 6 times LESS than your estimate and are based on the original death star, with the DS II its is often cited that it was twice the size of the original. so you need to double these numbers. also these numbers dont take into account of anything but the basic structure and the air needed for the station. it doesnt add other things like .......... well everything else from kitchen sinks to extra blankets for the toilet scrubers union.

and one final note, these numbers are based on the mass of steel, not on the mass of what ever the DS was actualy made of, it seems to be that you would need something alot stronger than steel to make this space station with a much higher weight per volume (id use the term density [http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/120Adensity.html] but i dont want to totaly boggle your mind) than steel. so these are the MINIMUM possable figures and could be much MUCH higher if you just double the weight and size of the death star. something that is not only possable but likley.

as i said you move the factorys too the raw materials, not the other way around. fuck .... how are you ever gunna stack 134,019,270,000 freighters in orbit? at YOUR number of 500 freighters a day it would take you 734,000 YEARS just too off load them



like i said lad, its a whole different scale we are talking about.

 

[Pyro Paul]

and his math is wrong... horribly wrong.

That gives us a volume of 17.16 quadrillion cubic meters. At 1/10 volume, we'll need 1.71 Quadrillion cubic meters of steel, weighing in at 134 quadrillion tonnes.

at that exchange rate, a 1 inch diameter ball bearing would weigh roughly 6 tons, or 13,200 lbs, that is one heavy ass ball bearing... i can only think of star core material which comes to densities like that in such a small size.


so lets do the math. Correctly.

160km wide space sphere.

to find volume you plug the radius into the following equation:
4/3 x 3.14 x Radius ^ 3.

now. let us plug in these numbers.

1.3 x 3.14 x 80^3.
notice, it is 80 because the radius is half of the diameter.

when plugged in we get this number:
2,089,984 km^3.
this is the volume of the sphere.
just over 2 million kilometers cubed.

this is where his first flaw shows through... this is because he takes the diameter and plugs it through the equation which gets a much bigger number in the end.

then he assumes a 1/10 mass for volume stating that the other 9/10ths are something like pessurized air or liquid. which is alright i suppose. i personally would of picked a 2/5ths, but we will go with his numbers.

so of that 2 million km^3 only 1/10th of it is used from this point forward to find the mass.

so...
2,089,984 km^3 x 1/10

giving us
208,998 km^3 of material.

now, we have to find the Mass of this object...

To find the Mass of an object, you take the volume of it then multiply it by the density of the material it is made of.

now the density of steel is roughly 8 g/cm^3

so 208,998 km^3 x 8 g/cm^3.
first we have to convert everything to the same size.

20,899,800,000 cm^3 x 8 g/cm^3 (100 cm in a meter, 1000 meters in a kilometer)

which equiates to

167,198,400,000 grams of steel.
convert this to metric tons
167,198.4 Metric tons (1 ton = 1,000,000 grams)

using his exchange rate of $962 per tonne (although it doesn't say weither it is short, long, or metric)

the 160 km wide death star would cost 160,844,860.80 USD in solid material alone, weighing in at 167,198 metric tons.

he makes a major mistake when converting the volume to tons. it is hard to tell how because he doesn't provide the math for it (even in his 'check my math!' add on after words). using his 1.7 quadrillion cubic meters of material, i only come up to 1.36 Trillion Metric tons of material. not exactly a quadrillion tons like he states. and using the exchange rates it would cost 1.3 Quadrillion USD, not 12.9 quadrillion.


now lets go to atmosphere.
100 cubic feet of breathable atmosphere costs ~3 USD... (even though it is a lot less than that.) convert this to meters, 30 cubic meters of atmosphere for 3 USD

it would cost me 5.6 billion dollars to get the breathable atmosphere i enjoy in the death star. so ultimatly in the end, to build a death star 2, i would be spending 5.7 billion USD to get a space worthy vessel.


now on mars i wouldn't think anything of trying to get crap into space. considering that i have either a space elevator or a SSTO transport system which can move a bulk of the material in a cost effective manner costing only a couple hundred thousand USD to get all that mass into orbit.





again... it isn't taxing on the resources.
the thing that will cost you is the processing, or turning that material into refined and finished parts for the space station.

feel free to check my math...
it should be mostly correct though.

 

[Wyatt]

then he assumes a 1/10 mass for volume stating that the other 9/10ths are something like pessurized air or liquid. which is alright i suppose. i personally would of picked a 2/5ths, but we will go with his numbers.

lord your slow. go back re-read what he said.

Lets say that the Death Star is 1/10 mass for volume. That means 1/10 of the total volume of the DS is something other then empty space or air.

hes talkking about the steel frame here and liquids

And lets say, 6/10 of the total volume is pressurized, livable space

hes talking about the volume of the open air spaces.

this when combined with the structure is only 7/10 of the total, the other 3/10 is obviously vacume.

i didnt even bother checking YOUR math (though i did his) because ....... well you dont understand what the fuck your talking about right from the start, clearly by the bit i quoted.

i think you should go back and research what a 'cubic ton' is some more *snicker*

anyhow ive wasted enough of my time with you i think, so unless you have something to say that isnt just made up nonsence or 'facts' pulled straight out of your ass i think we can put this to bed now dont you?

 

[Pyro Paul]

i didnt even bother checking YOUR math (though i did his) because ....... well you dont understand what the fuck your talking about right from the start, clearly by the bit i quoted.

i think you should go back and research what a 'cubic ton' is some more *snicker*

If you Checked his math, and found it correct
then you are agreeing that a 1 inch Ball bearing of steel weighs 6 tons.

by agreeing with this, you have proven that you know Absolutely nothing and need to go back and retake basic algebra. Right now, you are ignoring absolute logic provided by Solid Math presented to you completely.




right now i am absolutely dumbfounded by your stupidity really.
some how you can not even comperhend that i said the same exact thing he did with just a diffrent string of words.

1/10th of the space is mass for volume.
that is 1/10th of the volume is solid mass (steel)

9/10ths are something else, be it void, atmosphere, liquid coolent, or any other intangable mass.
despite even disagreeing with him because i feel a 1/10ths mass for volume would be too small of an amount i still use his math...


i can expand his math and point out the exact areas he fails at if you want... but i don't think you would understand.