Warren Spector: "Adolescent sexuality?"

[LookAtYouHacker]

Wait wait wait... was that directed at me? If so the judgemental swiftness of your interpretation is appalling. I'm speechless.

Was I replying to you? But if any of it strikes home and offends you then I can't say that I'm feeling all that sorry.

What I was replying to was the whole, "who is this person anyway and why should I listen to him," thing.

Instead of calling me out in your "revised" OP why not re-link to the original interview and try to analyse what he was actually saying. If you don't understand something then why not look it up instead of just saying you don't believe that the terms he uses are real.

Yeah, it either "struck home", or I was generally annoyed a what I initially perceived to be a judgemental comment. I'm extremely sensitive, it's just me.

 

[spartan231490]

Um, the brain is still not done developing until adulthood, so it does have an effect on maturity. Not to mention just plain psychological evolution, as opposed to biological, that goes on through adolescence. Admittedly, that doesn't mean that adults will make more mature decisions than adolescents, but there is demonstrable scientific evidence, both biological and psychological, that shows that adolescents are less able to do so.

There's a difference between biological maturity and conventional perceptions of what constitutes maturity.

Just because they are different, doesn't mean they aren't related. In fact, there has been a lot of research done into adolescent sexuality, and adolescent sexuality as it compares to the sexuality of adults. There are differences, whether or not these differences are significant is not something I can say.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Hmm I think maybe hes right in that the violence is getting a bit creepy. Even Yahtzee says that the zoom in bone breaking stuff and other extreme violence makes him cringe.

It's something we need to keep an eye on if anything. I'm not sure it's a big problem though.

I enjoyed playing the non lethal play through of Deus Ex: HR made me feel like a real hero (I even sacrificed my foxiest of hounds cheevo to save Malik.

Spoiler: I did laugh at the Penny Arcade comic about the Tomb Raider voice actress too which I think is relevant.

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

I think soemone is jealous because he can not sell his Micky Mouse game to as many people....

Yeah, what he needs to do is plop Mickey Mouse into a generic Call of Duty ripoff and have him, I don't know... gun down a bunch of Jews or something.

Or maybe go back to when there was a good Micky mouse game(genesis days) instead of making a crappy forgettable gimmicky
waggle game.

You should take a look at the upcoming 3DS Epic Mickey which, at the least, seems to be doing just that.

Well its just a side scrolling epic mickey right? So it wont be THAT good unless it has great level design.

I see someone is unfamiliar with Warren Spector's work... seeing as how all of his high profile games have had an emphasis on creative level design, from the tight interwoven corridors in System Shock to the open sprawling, multi path, multi solution levels in Theif and deus Ex...<.<

Anyone who knows a damned thing about those games can understand just how much the level design was an integral part of the whole experience... from more than just a gameplay perspective...

Ot: Yup, we've had a thread on this before... and he makes a good point, that a fixation on ultraviolence is holding back its potential as a story based or artistic medium...

Considering the developer of SS2 made Bioshock into a watered down piss easy mess, I no longer hold my breath on expecting qaulity to come out of anyone in media these days as it seems to be an after thought of the development process..

Seeing as you obviously don't know what the you're talking about and have no respect for a game that is one of the fore runners in the expansion of interactive storytelling and world building, and only wish to criticize the small aspects of the game IE a focus on action rather than character building and dificulty, rather than how the game existed as more than the sum of its parts, I'm going to leave before you say something else mind boggling stupid that makes my eyes want to jump out of my skull and strangle myself to death with nerves hanging off the end...

Also, other than kevin levine, who simply founded irrational games, the looking glass studios had literally nothing to do with bioshock other than a couple frames of concept art... and besides that I wasn't talking about System Shock 2 I was talking about the original... which I'm sure you haven't played...

Sorry, Bioshock was just a way of reintroducing the elements System Shock 2 was never recognised for. I loved it once, but I learned my lesson when I completed System Shock 2.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I think soemone is jealous because he can not sell his Micky Mouse game to as many people....

Yeah, what he needs to do is plop Mickey Mouse into a generic Call of Duty ripoff and have him, I don't know... gun down a bunch of Jews or something.

Or maybe go back to when there was a good Micky mouse game(genesis days) instead of making a crappy forgettable gimmicky
waggle game.

You should take a look at the upcoming 3DS Epic Mickey which, at the least, seems to be doing just that.

Well its just a side scrolling epic mickey right? So it wont be THAT good unless it has great level design.

I see someone is unfamiliar with Warren Spector's work... seeing as how all of his high profile games have had an emphasis on creative level design, from the tight interwoven corridors in System Shock to the open sprawling, multi path, multi solution levels in Theif and deus Ex...<.<

Anyone who knows a damned thing about those games can understand just how much the level design was an integral part of the whole experience... from more than just a gameplay perspective...

Ot: Yup, we've had a thread on this before... and he makes a good point, that a fixation on ultraviolence is holding back its potential as a story based or artistic medium...

Considering the developer of SS2 made Bioshock into a watered down piss easy mess, I no longer hold my breath on expecting qaulity to come out of anyone in media these days as it seems to be an after thought of the development process..

Seeing as you obviously don't know what the you're talking about and have no respect for a game that is one of the fore runners in the expansion of interactive storytelling and world building, and only wish to criticize the small aspects of the game IE a focus on action rather than character building and dificulty, rather than how the game existed as more than the sum of its parts, I'm going to leave before you say something else mind boggling stupid that makes my eyes want to jump out of my skull and strangle myself to death with nerves hanging off the end...

Also, other than kevin levine, who simply founded irrational games, the looking glass studios had literally nothing to do with bioshock other than a couple frames of concept art... and besides that I wasn't talking about System Shock 2 I was talking about the original... which I'm sure you haven't played...

Oh snap I forgot about that. Nerd rage= verbal incontinence for me. lulz

Just to be sure you are calling Bioshock one of the greatest games? I agree SS/SS2/DE1 were difficult but awesome games, games they do not even try to make anymore..

For me bioshock is everything wrong with modern game design. Small less intricate levels(Hell take a look at Metroid prime 2 levels they are smaller than MP1 but more intricate). Bioshock went the easy shooter route. Yes its ahead of most modern FP games but its hardly the best the industry can think up. It more than likely its what they can sell without any extra effort.

I enjoyed Dark Messiah alot more at least it was trying something new(melee combat even if it took time to get use to).But even it is far more watered down than Arx fatalis which DM is an offspring of.

Let me make it more clear, IMO essentially modern games do not suck as much are aimed at a less grateful/caring audience. The audience and the industry itself have changed since the later 90s to more streamlining of everything but visuals(which is the least important thing to gaming IMO) and a quicker less beta test intensive development cycle.

It suffers the same thing as most modern media, being made for the lowest common denominator ...

 

[razer17]

Errrr. You're misrepresenting what he is saying. Adolescent sexuality and adolescent approach to sexuality are soemwhat different, and he has a point. You should work in marketing:

Reviewer A: "This is the shittest game released this year, I wish I could give minues five stars"
On the cover of the game "Reviewer A said this game is the shit! I give five stars!"

Ignoring that. Are you objecting to his saying that games have an adolescent approach to sexuality? He isn't really wrong, considering that most games have sexuality represented as nothing more than "Wow! She has really big boobs! I LOVE TITS!" They do seem to market the sexy side to 14 year olds rather than adults.

And what makes you think all adults are mature? Furthermore, why do you define such sexual attraction as something solely adolescent? There are actual biological reasons as to why male humans are attracted to breasts. Look it up.

Did you even read what I said?

Yes.

Well, if you read it, maybe you should improve your reading comprehension. And one word posts aren't allowed on this site.

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

Errrr. You're misrepresenting what he is saying. Adolescent sexuality and adolescent approach to sexuality are soemwhat different, and he has a point. You should work in marketing:

Reviewer A: "This is the shittest game released this year, I wish I could give minues five stars"
On the cover of the game "Reviewer A said this game is the shit! I give five stars!"

Ignoring that. Are you objecting to his saying that games have an adolescent approach to sexuality? He isn't really wrong, considering that most games have sexuality represented as nothing more than "Wow! She has really big boobs! I LOVE TITS!" They do seem to market the sexy side to 14 year olds rather than adults.

And what makes you think all adults are mature? Furthermore, why do you define such sexual attraction as something solely adolescent? There are actual biological reasons as to why male humans are attracted to breasts. Look it up.

Did you even read what I said?

Yes.

Well, if you read it, maybe you should improve your reading comprehension. And one word posts aren't allowed on this site.

Maybe... but I'm doubtful. From my perspective your post was surreptitiously condescending. Sorry, I've always been overly sensitive.

Pertaining to your swift inclusion of ad hominems, I forgive you... but I am a little surprised.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

I'll also agree that the ultra-violence in recent games has become a little too excessive and glorified to the point of being fetishistic. There nothing wrong with including violence and a little gore in certain narratives, so long as it is there to drive the story and not be the main attraction.

Some games are known for all their violence and gore (God of War, Mortal Kombat, etc.), but there is starting to be an alarming trend of genres/series starting to bleed into each other in order to have a broader appeal. While one game has gory violence, another game might try to capitalize on that in their next title, which may not affect the interest of the fans, but might leave some wondering where this gore came from and if it even belongs in the series.

 

[balanovich]

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/the-ultraviolence-has-to-stop-warren-spector-6382680

Where did his statement stem from? What provoked it? It's irritating.

What's wrong with it?The guy doesn't like violence, big deal.
Why are you so easily irritated?

I'm extremely oversensitive. I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child.

#1 get over it.
#2 The guy isn't defining immaturity. He used the word to describe something. That's what adjectives are for.

"I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child." Feeling a bit insecure about our maturity are we ?

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Violence isn't good or bad. It's just there, and it's there to satisfy a need, the need for power over others. Until that goes away, taking away the opportunity for people to exercise that need in games is going to lead to more violence in real life.

 

[lapan]

I'd like to throw my bids in with this person. Humans are inherently violent, which is expressed one way or another. We're also attracted to that which scares us. Violence is a scary thing when occurring in real life. Potentially fatal violence scares the hell out of most commonfolk when happening near them. But it attracts us because our natural curiosity drives us to know what's happening.

People are quick to call something "human nature". I don't believe we understand ourselfes good enough to determine any kind of definite "human nature".

 

[Exius Xavarus]

I'd like to throw my bids in with this person. Humans are inherently violent, which is expressed one way or another. We're also attracted to that which scares us. Violence is a scary thing when occurring in real life. Potentially fatal violence scares the hell out of most commonfolk when happening near them. But it attracts us because our natural curiosity drives us to know what's happening.

People are quick to call something "human nature". I don't believe we understand ourselfes good enough to determine any kind of definite "human nature".

Annnnnd I believe different. People are attracted to that which they know not. We're attracted to fear. Why do people play horror games? Why do people watch horror movies? Our natural curiosity drives us to know.

And I wasn't being quick to call something human nature. I gave my rationale rather than being like "It's just human nature." I wasn't giving facts, I was stating my opinion on the matter. If people disagree then fine, but don't be so quick to write my opinions off as "being quick to call something human nature."

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/the-ultraviolence-has-to-stop-warren-spector-6382680

Where did his statement stem from? What provoked it? It's irritating.

What's wrong with it?The guy doesn't like violence, big deal.
Why are you so easily irritated?

I'm extremely oversensitive. I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child.

By calling someone immature, you are attempting to define maturity, therefore by your definition, you yourself are immature.

(Chuckles.) A little clever, but a little contrived. You're missing the point.

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/the-ultraviolence-has-to-stop-warren-spector-6382680

Where did his statement stem from? What provoked it? It's irritating.

What's wrong with it?The guy doesn't like violence, big deal.
Why are you so easily irritated?

I'm extremely oversensitive. I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child.

#1 get over it.
#2 The guy isn't defining immaturity. He used the word to describe something. That's what adjectives are for.

"I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child." Feeling a bit insecure about our maturity are we ?

I'd be interested to know what influenced, mental configurations caused you to reach such a conclusion.

You're wrong about me, sorry. I also have a lot to say about people who use the term "get over it." It's often used to selfishly degrade the sincerity of issues that evoke internal disquiet; I?ve often seen it used against rape victims.

Don't use it, it's disgusting.

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/the-ultraviolence-has-to-stop-warren-spector-6382680

Where did his statement stem from? What provoked it? It's irritating.

What's wrong with it?The guy doesn't like violence, big deal.
Why are you so easily irritated?

I'm extremely oversensitive. I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child.

By calling someone immature, you are attempting to define maturity, therefore by your definition, you yourself are immature.

To further elaborate, everyone harnesses individualistic perceptions of maturity (I'm sure you do.) However, I haven't intentionally yet defined maturity.

I'm simply specifying what I believe to be menial hypocrisy on Warren's part, and he's not the only one.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I don't particularly mind how violent the media is, so long as the folks consuming it aren't engaging in anything resembling it in their real lives.

Personally, I'd prefer the shut in to spend hours mutilating digital approximations of men than be out on the street hacking people to bits. Violent crime IS down quite a damned bit from previous generations.

That doesn't even begin to broach the subject of censorship/delegating opinions...etc, but I feel just that, in and of itself, is a sufficient reason to allow this sort of content.

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/the-ultraviolence-has-to-stop-warren-spector-6382680

Where did his statement stem from? What provoked it? It's irritating.

What's wrong with it?The guy doesn't like violence, big deal.
Why are you so easily irritated?

I'm extremely oversensitive. I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child.

#1 get over it.
#2 The guy isn't defining immaturity. He used the word to describe something. That's what adjectives are for.

"I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child." Feeling a bit insecure about our maturity are we ?

I understand if you admire Warren, as I admire many of his titles... but that shouldn't act as a stimulant for you to offend me.

 

[II2]

I don't find a problem with the violence itself, it's more the lack of titles offering a meaningful alternative (products) available.

Good stories/narratives and ultraviolence are not always at odds, either. Fallout wouldn't be the same without it's body-shot bloody mess. (Just one example, don't take it as a definitive statement - I realize Fallout's universe is fairly unique and more tonally elastic)

Part of the problem, to my mind, is the diffuse vision of big-team development and a drive to market violence as maturity that still has roots in the industry. It's kinda a nebulous statement, but I think that's why it creeps into presentations where it seems either out of place or over-done.

I've got tremendous respect for Warren Spector as a designer and his body of work, but I think we'd butt heads in a creative environment.

 

[balanovich]

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/the-ultraviolence-has-to-stop-warren-spector-6382680

Where did his statement stem from? What provoked it? It's irritating.

What's wrong with it?The guy doesn't like violence, big deal.
Why are you so easily irritated?

I'm extremely oversensitive. I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child.

#1 get over it.
#2 The guy isn't defining immaturity. He used the word to describe something. That's what adjectives are for.

"I believe those who constantly attempt to define maturity are immature themselves, as such a mindset derives from a child." Feeling a bit insecure about our maturity are we ?

I'd be interested to know what influenced, mental configurations caused you to reach such a conclusion.

You're wrong about me, sorry. I also have a lot to say about people who use the term "get over it." It's often used to selfishly degrade the sincerity of issues that evoke internal disquiet; I?ve often seen it used against rape victims.

Don't use it, it's disgusting.

Rape ?? seriously ? C'mon, I know your are just trying to illustrate a point. But even to this end, bringing in rape is completely ridiculous! I don't know what kind of weird people you hang out with to have seen it against rape victims, but I'll say it again.

Get over it.
again.
Get over it.

I'm not saying this out of any kind of profound twisted emotional need. I'm saying this because you are overreacting to something that in no way can be considered a big deal. You can disagree, but it should not stir anything inside you!

So yeah, GET OVER IT !

I don't know Warren. From context, I can deduce that he's the author of the text that has you all twisted inside.
As for offending you, well let me just say that .... you know what? forget it. If you can't handle someone questioning your virtue, than you don't belong on the internet!
And if you disagree with me, guess what ?!
...
Get over it !