Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...

[Vault101]

I'm not buying it because it's uncharted: mammory edition. If I want to play Uncharted, I'm not going to play the new tomb raider. I don't see any real difference here between the two games. It's like choosing between a bunch of modern-warfare shooters. They may have different stories and available tools, but it will all boil down to shooting guys. There's not enough variation or innovation to make me want to play this game.

how do you know that? have you played the game?

mabye I want to play a game when I DONT watch to stab blandy mcbland in the face everytime he opens his mouth...mabye I'd liek to play a game when I feel somthing for the protagonsit

[quote/]The fact that they turned one of gaming's stronger female protagonists into a pathetic wimp that has to be broken down and fucked over to become a badass again is just icing on the cake.[/quote]

they havnt...its called having an obsticle..struggle, makes charachters more compelling

 

[Vault101]

Even so, I fear they're not showing everything on the trailer. You didn't expect rape in Duke Nukem: Forever .. no one could had actually. But it's there, and it's not even a shock factor to motivate us playing it's just disgusting overall. And yeah, if she gets away from the rape good- but I heard some talk that she uses the moment of being raped to escape the bad guy. I hope that isn't true, I really hope not....

what I'd like to know is WHAT are peopel basing this "rape" acusation on?...that one bit in the trailer?

if so wow.....some people overact to everything..or don't bother to know the facts before flipping their shit

 

[DirgeNovak]

A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

 

[RN7]

I'm not buying it because it's uncharted: mammory edition. If I want to play Uncharted, I'm not going to play the new tomb raider. I don't see any real difference here between the two games. It's like choosing between a bunch of modern-warfare shooters. They may have different stories and available tools, but it will all boil down to shooting guys. There's not enough variation or innovation to make me want to play this game.

how do you know that? have you played the game?

mabye I want to play a game when I DONT watch to stab blandy mcbland in the face everytime he opens his mouth...mabye I'd liek to play a game when I feel somthing for the protagonsit



[quote/]The fact that they turned one of gaming's stronger female protagonists into a pathetic wimp that has to be broken down and fucked over to become a badass again is just icing on the cake.

they havnt...its called having an obsticle..struggle, makes charachters more compelling[/quote]

There's a difference between making a compelling character by giving them challenges and making the character appear the be pathetic. I like Tomb Raider. I don't like how the new Laura is being portrayed. I also have seen gameplay of the new Tomb Raider and it is virtually identical to Uncharted, minus the climbing. This doesn't mean there is no climbing though.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

The problem with your stance is that this whole design seems to be based around making her realistic.
You make some fair points, but I disagree for this very simple matter.

Except that was my point: it will never be realistic. As much as they want to hype it that way, it never will be. Ever. You can say "oh, but that's what they told us!" all you want and I can keep saying that because Lara Croft is supposed to be a hero it will never portray realism 100% accurately. Unless 9/10ths of that game are Lara staying in relatively one spot, making a fire, rationing her food and water, digging a latrine to prevent contamination at her camp site, building a shelter, constructing a rescue sign and spending most of her free time sitting around doing nothing to conserve energy and waste less supplies, then it's not realistic!

 

[Zydrate]

The problem with your stance is that this whole design seems to be based around making her realistic.
You make some fair points, but I disagree for this very simple matter.

Except that was my point: it will never be realistic. As much as they want to hype it that way, it never will be. Ever. You can say "oh, but that's what they told us!" all you want and I can keep saying that because Lara Croft is supposed to be a hero it will never portray realism 100% accurately. Unless 9/10ths of that game are Lara staying in relatively one spot, making a fire, rationing her food and water, digging a latrine to prevent contamination at her camp site, building a shelter, constructing a rescue sign and spending most of her free time sitting around doing nothing to conserve energy and waste less supplies, then it's not realistic!

I think you're uh, mixing gameplay with story.

Sure, if stories were ultra-realistic, people would be sitting around eating sandwiches.
We want believable characters in believable situations, realism and suspension of disbelief can be bent for all I care.

Also, this:

A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

 

[Voulan]

A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

In their statement Crystal said that Rosenburg had worded what he said incorrectly, or it was at least taken out of context - we don't want to care or help her simply because she's a woman, but because she's an average person placed in this extreme survival situation. We want to help her survive, and guide in that respect, not protect her. It was his fault for saying that so poorly, and he has apologized for that. I'm not defending this out of fanboyism, but because I really appreciate the mature direction they're taking Lara and the whole concept of characterization, and player input in a game centered around a strong character.

When we (may) start seeing some shots from later on in the game, when Lara is not only surviving but adapting and overcoming her situation, then I think some tunes will change, and hopefully more people will get interested in the game. We should be supporting a game trying to look maturely at a female character, not bashing it down.

 

[DirgeNovak]

A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

In their statement Crystal said that Rosenburg had worded what he said incorrectly, or it was at least taken out of context - we don't want to care or help her simply because she's a woman, but because she's an average person placed in this extreme survival situation. We want to help her survive, and guide in that respect, not protect her. It was his fault for saying that so poorly, and he has apologized for that. I'm not defending this out of fanboyism, but because I really appreciate the mature direction they're taking Lara and the whole concept of characterization, and player input in a game centered around a strong character.

When we (may) start seeing some shots from later on in the game, when Lara is not only surviving but adapting and overcoming her situation, then I think some tunes will change, and hopefully more people will get interested in the game. We should be supporting a game trying to look maturely at a female character, not bashing it down.

I agree. If Rosenburg indeed misspoke and the game's attitude is not misogynistic (because what he said was fucking misogynistic), I'll definitely buy it new and support what CD is doing. But his statement made sure I will not pre-order it. I'll buy it a couple of days after release after I make sure they didn't pull an Other M.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

I think you're uh, mixing gameplay with story.

Sure, if stories were ultra-realistic, people would be sitting around eating sandwiches.
We want believable characters in believable situations, realism and suspension of disbelief can be bent for all I care.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I was arguing in the first place and so were you.

This, thank you.

I have to constantly explain to writers and roleplayers that rape NEVER helps. It BREAKS characters, and in the event it "strengthens" them, it happens decades after the fact at which point it doesn't merit mentioning.
Which means, the only time rape as a backstory works is when it's never mentioned.

So, suspension of disbelief that rape cannot make someone stronger person almost immediately. Much like survival from a plane crash wouldn't be natives hunting you down and trying to rape you and more so agonizing solitude and desperate hope that someone will find you.

Also, this:

A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

And this pertains to my argument how...? If you want my opinion, I think this whole idea that Lara is a helpless woman and were all white-knighting her to victory has some pretty heavy assumptions tied to it. I don't really want to give a solid opinion until I watch or play the game simply because it could be just as misogynistic as people are making it out to be, or it could just be that he's trying to convey that Lara is a very helpless person and that anyone, male or female, will empathize with how pathetic she'll be at the start and do everything possible to shelter her from the storm of unfortunate events she's crashed into.

If this is something to support your argument, well, I don't understand how this connects to my argument that rape can be a good plot point and that saying a hero should abide by realistic expectations is folly.

 

[lacktheknack]

A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

I want you to try something.

Track down a copy of "The Binding of Isaac", the dungeon (basement?) crawler from Edmund McMillen. It features a small child that I felt desperately sorry for and I "wanted to take care of".

I want you to play it all the way to at least the first ending.

This is what people think is going to happen to Lara.

Now, track down a copy of The Longest Journey or Dreamfall. Play that. They feature teenaged girls in waaaaaaay over their head that I "wanted to take care of".

This is what will probably actually happen to Lara.

Notice a difference?

Seriously, the cynicism in this thread is mind-boggling.

 

[Zydrate]

Stuff and things

I quoted that because the whole topic has lost sight of why we TRULY are not happy with all of this, that's all.
Also I need sleep.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Also, the whole rape thing? Apparently ole boy Ron Rosenberg screwed up in what he was talking about and actually that little scene doesn't have any rape connotation.

http://www.tombraider.com/us/base/brandsite?refer=19&

From the Crystal Dynamics statement, today:

"Sexual assault of any kind is categorically not a theme we cover in this game."

From Penny Arcade, 1 week ago:

"You see that in the beginning of the game, where we begin to build her up and give her confidence to cross the ledge, cross the plane, she forages for food and she?s feeling really successful," Rosenberg said. "Then towards the end we start to really hit her, and to break her down. Her best friend is kidnapped, she's taken hostage, she's almost raped, we put her in this position where we turned her into a cornered animal."

So what they're saying is that the team that put that scene together in a way that definitely implies sexual assault didn't mean to do that? That the producer of the game uses words as charged as 'almost raped' by mistake? When talking to Penny Arcade?

I'm facepalming so hard it'll give Patrick Stewart a concussion.

The most charitable spin I can put on this is that Crystal Dynamics are a pack of idiots who have no fucking idea what they're doing and (like most developers it seems) should be forbidden to talk to the gaming press.

But that's not what's happening. They've tried to be edgy and 'dark' and all the rest of what passes for maturity in mainstream gaming, and they didn't get the reaction they wanted.

This is damage control, pure and simple.

Oh it was damage control alright, and I do think that Rosenberg is the wrong person to be talking about this game since everything he has said so far has been making the team trying to do some fantastic backpedaling. He's a fucking idiot, but I'm not gonna let one idiot on the team ruin the game for me.

However, my take on it is that they would have to be stupid to have attempted rape in the game, no one wins if that happens, and you're right about them being 'edgy' for the sake of it if they do have it in there. At some point in the game Lara has to get to the point of defending herself and taking someone's life, and that little scene to me says that.

I could be wrong, but then again, I'm taking the developer's word that it doesn't get farther than him touching her face suggestively, and Lara probably has a knife behind her back and stabs him. Am I giving CD too much room? Perhaps, but I would have to see how it plays out before I start crying foul over speculation, especially when attempted rape is being mentioned.

 

[lacktheknack]

I could be wrong, but then again, I'm taking the developer's word that it doesn't get farther than him touching her face suggestively, and Lara probably has a knife behind her back and stabs him. Am I giving CD too much room? Perhaps, but I would have to see how it plays out before I start crying foul over speculation, especially when attempted rape is being mentioned.

Oh, go watch the E3 2012 trailer. It's right there.

He attempts to grab and force her, but she kicks him and struggles free. She then runs off as he fires after her.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

Stuff and things

I quoted that because the whole topic has lost sight of why we TRULY are not happy with all of this, that's all.

Right. Which had nothing to do with what I quoted.

Though, again, where are people getting all this misogyny from? I ran through every quote from Rosenberg and found only one potentially sexist remark.

"When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character."

Out of all these genderless quotes...

"When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character,"

"They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'"

"She's definitely the hero but? you're kind of like her helper."

"The ability to see her as a human is even more enticing to me than the more sexualized version of yesteryear. She literally goes from zero to hero... we're sort of building her up and just when she gets confident, we break her down again."

"She is literally turned into a cornered animal. It's a huge step in her evolution: she's forced to either fight back or die."

"We're not trying to be over the top, shock people for shock's sake. We're trying to tell a great origin story."

So just for fun...

"When people play Leon, they don't really project themselves into the character,"

"They're more like 'I want to protect him.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with him and trying to protect him.'"

"He's definitely the hero but? you're kind of like his helper. When you see him have to face these challenges, you start to root for him in a way that you might not root for a female character."

"The ability to see him as a human is even more enticing to me than the more sexualized version of yesteryear. He literally goes from zero to hero... we're sort of building him up and just when he gets confident, we break him down again."

"He is literally turned into a cornered animal. It's a huge step in his evolution: he's forced to either fight back or die."

"We're not trying to be over the top, shock people for shock's sake. We're trying to tell a great origin story."

Does it sound any different? I think people are reading too much into Kotaku's spin and not enough into what Rosenberg is actually saying. That's why I like the Escapist - they don't put up with hack hype like this and present stories from an unbiased standpoint. Kotaku, on the other hand, is headlining with a clearly polarizing statement and feeding that implanted idea throughout their comments between the quotes. If you read the quotes just as a streamlined dialogue, which is how it would've been originally, it sounds fine and pretty gender neutral.

Sorry, this isn't meant to pick on you, but you sort of spurred me to put my thoughts down.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

I could be wrong, but then again, I'm taking the developer's word that it doesn't get farther than him touching her face suggestively, and Lara probably has a knife behind her back and stabs him. Am I giving CD too much room? Perhaps, but I would have to see how it plays out before I start crying foul over speculation, especially when attempted rape is being mentioned.

Oh, go watch the E3 2012 trailer. It's right there.

He attempts to grab and force her, but she kicks him and struggles free. She then runs off as he fires after her.

Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

 

[lacktheknack]

I could be wrong, but then again, I'm taking the developer's word that it doesn't get farther than him touching her face suggestively, and Lara probably has a knife behind her back and stabs him. Am I giving CD too much room? Perhaps, but I would have to see how it plays out before I start crying foul over speculation, especially when attempted rape is being mentioned.

Oh, go watch the E3 2012 trailer. It's right there.

He attempts to grab and force her, but she kicks him and struggles free. She then runs off as he fires after her.

Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

Yeah, Crossroads.

And Crystal Dynamics have stated in today's statement that "it never goes any further than the scenes we have already shown publicly". ie... we've seen the attempted rape already, and it was hardly anything.

 

[Voulan]

Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

Exactly, it isn't a big deal. I guess a game centered around a struggling female character is bound to drag up controversy. That article takes the scene completely out of context. They need to bear in mind that this is the start of the game where Lara is still vulnerable - they seem to forget the whole point is to survive, and that later Lara will adapt and will overcome her situation, bearing a more humanizing resemblance to her old badass self.

The short of it, I guess, is that it's far too early to boycott or pass off what could be a brilliant game over something someone said that one time. Make your own judgements, and wait and see, rather than jumping all over a ten second scene you saw in an early trailer.

That wasn't aimed specifically at you Fiz, by the way.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

I could be wrong, but then again, I'm taking the developer's word that it doesn't get farther than him touching her face suggestively, and Lara probably has a knife behind her back and stabs him. Am I giving CD too much room? Perhaps, but I would have to see how it plays out before I start crying foul over speculation, especially when attempted rape is being mentioned.

Oh, go watch the E3 2012 trailer. It's right there.

He attempts to grab and force her, but she kicks him and struggles free. She then runs off as he fires after her.

Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

Yeah, Crossroads.

And Crystal Dynamics have stated in today's statement that "it never goes any further than the scenes we have already shown publicly". ie... we've seen the attempted rape already, and it was hardly anything.

Yeah I saw that statement too and since that's the case then I have no reason to lose my shit over it.

 

[viranimus]

Here is the long and short of it. This is just another example of why being politically correct is not only wrong, but its a load of horseshit. (whoa, that passed spell check oddly enough)

If you want to make Lara croft a sexualized entity. Fine. If you want to make her frail and weak, fine. But there is absolutely no merit in modifying existing characters to make them appeal to the sensibilities of the offended because no matter how much you compromise you quickly understand it will never EVER be enough to satisfy and the only thing that gets accomplished possibly alienating some of those who supported you in the first place.

"You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you simply cannot cave in the skull of every one who deserves it simply because the law prevents you from doing so and there would be no one left after you were done."

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Ok I was probably thinking of a different one, but I watched that one again, I'm assuming we are talking about the "Crossroads" one...?

That one, I don't see the big deal, his hands get to her hips and she knees him, they struggle, and he gets shot in the face.

Exactly, it isn't a big deal. I guess a game centered around a struggling female character is bound to drag up controversy. That article takes the scene completely out of context. They need to bear in mind that this is the start of the game where Lara is still vulnerable - they seem to forget the whole point is to survive, and that later Lara will adapt and will overcome her situation, bearing a more humanizing resemblance to her old badass self.

The short of it, I guess, is that it's far too early to boycott or pass off what could be a brilliant game over something someone said that one time. Make your own judgements, and wait and see, rather than jumping all over a ten second scene you saw in an early trailer.

That wasn't aimed specifically at you Fiz, by the way.

It's all good, I figured it wasn't aimed at me.

But yeah, I thought they made it perfectly clear waaaaay before E3 that this game was going to be about a bright eyed Lara just coming out of college into the real world and learning how to become what we know her for, and it wasn't going to be sunshine and rainbows. Somehow that was lost on some people because of that scene that, what we found out later, wasn't as big of a deal as everyone thought it was.

I know I'm excited for this game since it looks really good.