Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...

[Dastardly]

Am I just overreacting? Or is it a valid point? What do you all think?

Yeah, I'd have to say you're overreacting.

This is an origin story. Just like any hero's origin story, male or female, they begin less powerful. They have to, or there wouldn't be an origin. And then events conspire to make the hero heroic.

In the case of Lara Croft, she doesn't have superpowers. She is, however, tough, resilient, and extraordinarily determined. One doesn't come by those qualities without some kind of hardship, and the greater the hardship, the greater those qualities become.

Spider-man wouldn't have become Spider-man without his contribution to his uncle's death. Superman wouldn't be Superman if he wasn't orphaned by a dying planet. Storm wouldn't have been half as tough if she hadn't grown up on the streets. If a character is meant to be tough, they have to get toughened up somehow. If they're meant to be extraordinarily driven, something extraordinary has to happen to drive them.

 

[floppylobster]

You make a number of excellent points and I will not be playing the game either. I only take issue with your slightly unbalanced assessment of male players -

Men may have been more focused on her breasts, but the fact that she had an attitude was inescapable, albeit an attitude that occasionally spilled over into parody. In some ways original Lara was much more honest than this new, "realistic" Lara.

I see no fundamental difference between one that men only play because they want to ogle her tits and one men only want to play because they feel the need to take care of the poor little girl. Both models of femininity are equally sexist in my opinion.

I play Tomb Raider for exactly the same reasons as you. I like her attitude, I like that she can take care of herself, I enjoy her focused and determined personality and I find that her looks offer a refreshingly interesting counterpoint to a character who would normally represented in the ways this new game is unfortunately exploring. I do not ogle, I do not want to 'take care of'. And I am male. But I'm totally with you in condemning the new game's approach.

 

[DigitalAtlas]

...Are you ****ing joking me?

Lara was picked on for years because every one thought she was the way gamer's saw and WANTED to see attractive women: Big butts, short shorts, huge knockers, and guns in hand.

I bet you have large boobs. Kudos. It doesn't mean that YOU ARE are sex symbol. It just means they want to take the 'fap' out of Lara Croft's name.

You know what really troubles me about this whole thing? You completely missed the point when he said 'you'll want to protect Lara.' If we look at it from your angle, it's a way to get more picky people (a lot of douches I know won't play as women, simple as) to try it out. It's a marketing pitch. But is that what I think he meant? Hell no. I think he meant, you'll feel for her situation. You'll be over-whelmed with sympathy and you, as the person controlling her, want to do everything to protect her from the hell the game keeps putting her through, like you would for a best friend, a lover, or a person being mugged in an alley and you happen to be holding a wrench.

You know what your problem is? You can't make up your damn mind on what you want. Like the Sonic fanbase, people want to keep Lara down so she can continue to be a target. The fact is, Tomb Raider is a popular game franchise and this entry will be saving it from death.

Seriously, are you ****ing kidding me?

 

[Zydrate]

Is the "gaming community" just not ready for a game where the protagonist nearly gets raped?

Well, considering the whole issue with writing of all media using a simplistic take on rape as an easy way to drum up teh dramas and/or create conflict/backstory for female characters they don't know what to do with otherwise, I'm not particularly eager to see video games jumping on the bandwagon as well. I mean, seriously, that shit was played out even 2-3 decades back in Red Sonja.

It's not that she was 'almost' raped, it's just that it's a silly thrown in plot device.
For me, it just seems like a cheap "OH THE HORROR. BE DISTURRBBEEEDD".

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Urgh... apparently it's impossible to have a female protagonist without stirring up gender politics.

The game is about a young woman on an expedition that goes pear-shaped. Ugly shit goes down and she has to fight to survive. Why is this getting people's hackles up? Would people be getting upset if it was a guy?

We finally get a game that's trying (albeit rather haltingly) to get away from the standard kill-everything-that-speaks-Russian power trip and people start squalling because "OMG, it's a chick."

Oh God this.

You know, I've often thought about being a writer, particularly for games, as a possible career option; and if I were to do so I'd really like to focus on demographics that don't get featured very often when it domes to protagonists. Not because I want to go "Hey look at me and how progressive I'm being!", but more, well, just for variety's sake.

However, thing is, what I'd really want to prove (if I was setting out to prove anything at all) by this is that this really shouldn't be a big deal. That having a female, black, gay ect protagonist should just be able to pass by under the radar because it's really not a big deal. But I'm starting to think that the whole reason why there's this lack of variety in game protagonists at the moment is not down to lack of imagination on the part of developers, but just because the controversy of doing anything other than a mid-thirties white male is just too much fucking hassle. Whatever angle you take, somebody's going to stir up a shitstorm.

 

[Erttheking]

Wait wait wait wait...they made her breasts smaller...and you're complaining about it...what sense does that make?

Also, as someone who has never played a tome raider game (and probably never will) I don't see the big deal about this. This isn't Metroid other M where they take a character who has painted a room with Ridley's brain three times and blown up five planets and suddenly make her insecure, this is taking a character and exploring her roots, showing a character who is vulnerable as apposed to someone like Master Chief, who mows down an enemy platoon before breakfast each morning. It'd be like exploring Samus' character Let's face it, you never wonder if Master Chief is going to be ok or get out of the situation he's in all right, he's a fucking super soldier. It has potential as it adds a level of stress to the game, you're not a super badass you're a teenage girl surrounded by people trying to kill you and you have to resort to whatever you can get your hands on to stay alive, making a bow and arrow weapons was a neat idea in my book. Though from what I saw in the trailer, Lara still manages to kill...oh, about 8 people in 30 seconds with a shotgun...kind of takes away from the suspense and goes back to generic shooting, which I like if it's done right but it doesn't seem to fit the tone of this game. Still, let's wait and see.

Also you do have a point, I guess this game does say that the only way women can become strong is go through horrific events that force them to be become stronger.................no it doesn't where the Hell did you pull that idea from? Seriously, some of your arguments are just grasping at straws, but then again, you did complain about them giving Lara smaller breasts....did you seriously want to see a teenage girl with double Ds in a story with a survival theme? If you do, I recommend High School of the Dead, but...I thought women being overly sexualized in games was a bad thing, why are you complaining about people trying to move away from it?

In summary, you're overreacting.

P.S. the guy above me makes a good point, the reason that most protagonists in video games are males in their mid thirties is that when people try to do something like this, people start whining for some reason or another.

 

[Zydrate]

I don't have a problem with making her weaker.
I have a problem at the precedent this might create.

Apparently, strong female characters have to be almost raped in order to become strong!
Lovely!

 

[Tanis]

GET OVER YOURSELVES...

Seriously.

GET OVER IT.

Sexualization HAPPENS IN EVERY MEDIUM AND EVERY SEX.

OMG PUR LURA MIGTH HAS WEEKNESS.
Boo, freaking, hoo.

If you want equal rights, then you get the good with the bad.
If you don't?

Then, that's fine.
I'm sure Iran would LOVE to have you over.

 

[bullet_sandw1ch]

what im garnering from everyone is that she is... raped? thats kind of a sick attempt to get us to feel sorry. could anyone link me to an article that says this?

 

[Erttheking]

Wait, so attempting to turn wank-material into an actual character and fill out the origin story to explain why the hot sociopath Lara Croft appeared is now a BAD thing?

Reading that review actually made me much more willing to get this Tomb Raider a chance!

Seriously, get the fuck off your high horse.

This actually sounds like an interesting story.

So overly-sexualised characters are bad. Believably proportioned characters that go through hardship are bad. You know what?

I wash my hands of this entire debate. Before I saw the point. My account took one hell of a beating over the TERA promotional pictures, I educate myself, you get the idea.

But if the games industry goes "Fine! Have a believable, weak, interesting female protagonist that becomes the badass we know" and the reaction is "SHE IS TOO WEAK YOU CHAUVINISTIC BASTARDS" then I don't care about the debate any more.

Fuck it. Bring on the tits. If you don't want to play nice, you don't deserve equal representation in games.

The Other M.

Another situation in which the developers tried to turn a strong female character into a "believable character". We all know how that played out.

No...not really. Metroid Other M was about Samus clenching up at the same dragon whose brains she had used as paint around...I'm going to say five times. If someone were to make a Metroid game like this new Tomb Raider, it would be Samus seeing Ridley for the first time as he kills her parents...you know, when she actually had a good reason to clench up at him, before she became an unstoppable badass, when she was a vulnerable little girl. Someone made this comparison in this thread already, but in this game, Lara is kind of like Frodo Baggins, and last time I checked he was regarded as a well written character. Then again he has a penis, so it's ok to show him being weak I guess.

 

[Zydrate]

Snip

*Reads OP* I can see where you're going with this- *reads the part about rape* ... what??

*Reads article, and comes to see this.*

And then, Rosenberg says, those scavengers will try to rape her.

...... What?!

Ppft- .. wow, I am speechless. I know they're trying to make the game realistic and have some dark elements in it- but rape? ... My god no, why of all things. Never has a game (to my knowledge) has successfully impacted us with rape and making it work with the main or side character. All it does is just throws things off, or makes us disgusted. Remember when Duke Nukem: Forever tried to stun us with the aliens raping women? .. That wasn't close to being meaningful, it was utterly wrong and sickening. SO yeah I ... uh.. *shakes head*

I've dealt with rape in real life, friends I cared about and even a girl I dated was raped. It didn't help them mature not one bit. It traumatized them and made it hard for them to ever get into dating or even being themselves again. Gosh, sorry for the ranting but rape? Really... don't do this to us, I already played 2 games trying to shove rape in our faces and make us admire the plot more but it only screws everything up. Probably won't even get this game and yeah- I know the article said the bad guys will 'try' to rape her but still.. come on.

This, thank you.

I have to constantly explain to writers and roleplayers that rape NEVER helps. It BREAKS characters, and in the event it "strengthens" them, it happens decades after the fact at which point it doesn't merit mentioning.
Which means, the only time rape as a backstory works is when it's never mentioned.

 

[LiquidGrape]

"And then, Rosenberg says, those scavengers will try to rape her. "She is literally turned into a cornered animal," Rosenberg said. "It's a huge step in her evolution: she's forced to either fight back or die."

Right. I suppose my first impression [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.377759-My-thoughts-of-Tomb-Raider-Crossroads#14747377] was an accurate impression. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.377759-My-thoughts-of-Tomb-Raider-Crossroads?page=2#14748323]

Passing on this with a vengeance. I'm not interested in seeing one of the few truly empowered heroines in gaming be put through a traumatising trial of fire in some deluded attempt to legitimise her.

 

[Zydrate]

Right. I suppose my first impression was an accurate impression.

Passing on this with a vengeance. I'm not interested in seeing one of the few truly empowered heroines in gaming be put through a traumatising trial of fire in some deluded attempt to legitimise her.

The weird part is Lara was our crowning jewel of female characters (She was dethroned by Alyx, but that's just me).

She doesn't need this.

 

[Voulan]

I wouldn't be too concerned, the article takes this scene completely out of context. The emphasis isn't on the rape - which it doesn't even get close to, by the way - but on Lara's first kill. I don't understand how they could interpret someone who knees him in the groin, bites his ear off, then shoots him isn't strong. It's a single moment in the game anyway, and then we move right along.

And no, they don't all attempt to rape her either. I don't no where they got that idea from.

 

[kortin]

No...not really. Metroid Other M was about Samus clenching up at the same dragon whose brains she had used as paint around...I'm going to say five times. If someone were to make a Metroid game like this new Tomb Raider, it would be Samus seeing Ridley for the first time as he kills her parents...you know, when she actually had a good reason to clench up at him, before she became an unstoppable badass, when she was a vulnerable little girl. Someone made this comparison in this thread already, but in this game, Lara is kind of like Frodo Baggins, and last time I checked he was regarded as a well written character. Then again he has a penis, so it's ok to show him being weak I guess.

I was talking more about how they completely changed Samus from what she was originally shown to be. Yeah, true, she never had a true personality, but there was core characteristics that were shown. They didn't exactly screw her up, persay, they just changed A LOT about her (or rather, added), to the point where she's a completely different character from the one in previous games.

Using your Frodo Baggins comparison, you NEVER feel like you have to protect Frodo. You root him on or whathaveyou. You NEVER, EVER feel the need to protect him. Why the hell should we feel like we should protect Lara? There's tons of male characters out there who get along just fine without our need to feel as if we should protect them. Why can't they do the same? Gender equality is what everyone is striving for, after all. I am completely against ANY character that the devs/writers want you to feel like you should protect. That's just...no.

There is a HUGE difference between sympathizing with a character and wanting to protect it. If you sympathize with a character, you feel for them. You see they're in a shit situation, so you'd like to see them make it out. Wanting to protect a character is COMPLETELY different. An urge to protect symbolizes that this character or person is incredibly weak and requires it. Yes, a weak character can be good, but not, and I repeat, NOT whenever it takes the core traits from a character that is already established and just screws it up.

The bravery shown by Lara in the original games isn't any sort of "15 seconds of bravery" deal. It is core bravery. It is part of who she is. They take that away from her, tell you that she never had it and got it by "this and this and this", and you've got an impossibility on your hand. A character does not just suddenly become brave. There will be the whole "15 seconds of bravery" deal, and it might be more frequent than before after some sort of event, but never does a character or person change THAT much.

 

[TK421]

This is going to be worse than Other M.

I thought we agreed never to speak of that atrocity again?

But I do agree with you. I feel like this whole thing is a step backwards. Laura was an awesome badass that didn't need a reason to go adventuring, so what if she also had huge boobs and a great ass? I feel like some people just want to create problems where there really aren't any.

 

[Erttheking]

No...not really. Metroid Other M was about Samus clenching up at the same dragon whose brains she had used as paint around...I'm going to say five times. If someone were to make a Metroid game like this new Tomb Raider, it would be Samus seeing Ridley for the first time as he kills her parents...you know, when she actually had a good reason to clench up at him, before she became an unstoppable badass, when she was a vulnerable little girl. Someone made this comparison in this thread already, but in this game, Lara is kind of like Frodo Baggins, and last time I checked he was regarded as a well written character. Then again he has a penis, so it's ok to show him being weak I guess.

The problem there, is not that theres a difference in genders. You NEVER feel like you have to protect Frodo. You root him on or whathaveyou. You NEVER, EVER feel the need to protect him. Why the hell should we feel like we should protect Lara? There's tons of male characters out there who get along just fine without our need to feel as if we should protect them. Why can't they do the same? Gender equality is what everyone is striving for, after all. I am completely against ANY character that the devs/writers want you to feel like you should protect. That's just...no.

There is a HUGE difference between sympathizing with a character and wanting to protect it. If you sympathize with a character, you feel for them. You see they're in a shit situation, so you'd like to see them make it out. Wanting to protect a character is COMPLETELY different. An urge to protect symbolizes that this character or person is incredibly weak and requires it. Yes, a weak character can be good, but not, and I repeat, NOT whenever it takes the core traits from a character that is already established and just screws it up.

The bravery shown by Lara in the original games isn't any sort of "15 seconds of bravery" deal. It is core bravery. It is part of who she is. They take that away from her, tell you that she never had it, and you've got an impossibility on your hand. A character does not just suddenly become brave. There will be the whole "15 seconds of bravery" deal, and it might be more frequent than before after some sort of event, but never does a character or person change THAT much.

Pretty sure what he meant by "protect her" is that you'll be extra careful to not mess up and get her hurt, my personal interpretation but whatever. Seems to me like this game is going for a survival tone so that makes sense for me. At the very most the worse that happened there was a poor choice of words.

What do you mean "she never had it" it's not that she never got it it's that she doesn't have it yet, how old is Lara in this game? 17? You're judging her by actions that she hasn't preformed yet. Yes people do change that much, when I was six years old I wasn't even freaking close to the person that I am now, people change from that age because they're not done developing yet. A fresh grunt going into the military is not the same as a grizzled veteran that comes out. Your argument boarders on the absurd a little bit, a teenager crashes on a island filled with bandits and when she's scared you complain about it?...um, name a person that wouldn't be scared if they were dropped into that situation when they were 17. This is like complaining that Samus shouldn't be portrayed as scared when she's a little kid and Ridley attacks her home planet and kills her parents in front of her because she'll be badass one day. It's an origins story, how fun would batman begins be if Bruce Wayne started out badass and didn't need to train? How much fun would spiderman be if he perfecting web swinging the first time he tried it.

 

[tthor]

it's cute watching overly-obsessed politically correct people work

damned if she has boobs, damned if she doesn't, apparently no matter what, she is somehow sexist~

 

[ResonanceSD]

I see nothing wrong with trying to make us connect with a female character. And by gum it worked. I actually felt emotion for Lara. For once.

I know right, makes such a nice bloody change.

 

[Zydrate]

it's cute watching overly-obsessed politically correct people work

damned if she has boobs, damned if she doesn't, apparently no matter what, she is somehow sexist~

I don't see much of a difference myself.
I like how the 'new' her looks, though.