It's fine because it'll be a moment that defines Lara Croft's character...Sixcess said:
Last I checked, the worth of woman world wide was not determined by one game character. That kind of thinking is hyperbole at it's most extreme.
Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...
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Last I checked, the worth of woman world wide was not determined by one game character. That kind of thinking is hyperbole at it's most extreme.
It's not so much oh my god it's a chick but more oh my god it's Lara.Zhukov said:
I'll admit what there putting in game has tons of ways it could be done wrong, but when does not having issues like this not have the chance to be fucked up, it's part of handling mature content. I'm looking forward to the game I'd love to have more games with underpowered heroes.
Also I understand Other M sucks but this isn't Other M, just because one game did it wrong doesn't mean every game is gonna do it wrong.
Nope, people don't give a rat's ass when it comes to what happens to a male protagonist. Such is the hypocrisy of gender politics. I mean look at FEAR 2, the male protagonist gets raped at the end of the game, and no ones gives a flying fuck. There is no massive controversy, the developers are called scumbags, there is no call to boycott the franchise.Zhukov said:
Ah well, a derp moment for me, I suppose. I did read the RPS piece yesterday (I think it may have been linked to earlier in this thread, or elsewhere) and simply assumed it was the same one. Oh well.Woodsey said:
Me too, which is why I'll add that I probably didn't look very closely since I was putting as much effort into my reply as you'd put into all two words of yours. Cheers!
*cough*
Anyway, now that we've got the obligatory internet bitching out of our systems (I hope) back to the reasonable discussion part.
I'm not going to say much about the body of the article. It strikes me as reaching too hard to be meaningful and it's all a bit overdone, and to be honest the longer Rosenberg quotes don't really alter my view of it all - I'm still uncomfortable with the content of the trailers, and I'm decidedly unconvinced by his stance.
"We didn't want to make it a gratuitous scene, but we wanted to show that character progression and talk about what you?d do if you were put in that extreme situation."
At the risk of repeating myself from previous posts, it doesn't sit well with me that they've decided that the best way to progress her character is through repeated brutalisation and attempted rape. The only place that this happens is in exploitation flicks and slasher movies, shifting Tomb Raider's cinematic influences away from Raiders of the Lost Ark and toward I Spit On Your Grave.
Perhaps he does have good intentions. Perhaps. But video games are immature as a story telling medium, and this kind of thing usually comes across badly, particularly when it is pushed to one side in favour of action set pieces later on.
Which brings me to my last (likely repeated) point.
"We're doing something that's special. I mean, it's a little bit risky in some ways. We're forging into new emotional territories."
To which I will reply... in Tomb Raider? Seriously?
Too much of this (like the deer killing scene) feels like a reaction to the Yahtzee style revisionist caricature of Lara Croft as an heartless psychotic murderer of any living thing that crosses her path... in other words, as a video game character.
If Rosenberg has this urge to explore new emotional territory then perhaps he should have avoided using a character who is entirely associated with action, not character depth. When Spielberg made a movie about the Holocaust it was Schindler's List not Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of Auschwitz.
This should have been a new IP.
I'm not saying that companies should stop trying. I'm saying they should learn how to portray female characters. They're going down the exact same path with this game as they did with the Other M, and I see serious problems for the game's future.RazadaMk2 said:
They should not be aiming to get you to want to protect her, they should be aiming to get you to sympathize with her. There's a MASSIVE difference between the urge to protect and sympathy.
If you actually read anything in this topic, no one gives a damn about her breast size (and if they do, they are in a very small minority).TimeLord said:
I really fucking hope you are the only one. She's not being made weaker and more vulnerable because she's supposed to be a more realistic female protagonist, it's happening because it's her God damned character. This Lara is a child in comparison to all the other Lara appearances, she's out on, pretty much, her first real adventure. She has no idea what she's getting into and it's all blowing up in her face. You're supposed to want to protect her because she's helpless as a character, as a person, not as a woman.cynicalandbored said:
Basically, you're looking at the whole sexism thing through the eyes of some try-hard white knight who doesn't know what actual sexism is. Try and think of things less in terms of men and women and more as in character, because until you start doing that you're a sexist, you're the enemy.
Lara's huge boobs are like her superman symbol she would not be the character she is without them.
to be honest men are always muscularly in games, women like muscles so that could be over sexualisation.
To all those people who dont want sexualised video game characters and want someone average and unattractive. FUCK YOU if you want average and realistic go and look round your local super market.
to be honest men are always muscularly in games, women like muscles so that could be over sexualisation.
To all those people who dont want sexualised video game characters and want someone average and unattractive. FUCK YOU if you want average and realistic go and look round your local super market.
Which would be a relevant observation if I'd implied otherwise. I haven't.Raven said:
As I've said elsewhere, most recently in the post I wrote before reading yours, this should have been a new IP. I'd have no problem with that, other than probably thinking it was the usual bad video game writing.
My entire problem with the reboot is that it's Lara Croft, who shouldn't need some Freudian
It seems all the people crying "OMG THIS IS SEXIST!!!" are failing to notice one simple little thing: Lara Croft is a character in a story. Guess what type of character in this story she happens to be. Yup, a weak, helpless person who goes on a journey and grows into a strong individual.
The plot wouldn't work if she was already an empowered young woman. The ones who are getting offended don't seem to realize that there isn't going to be one concrete archetype for a character. Honestly, I don't think people would be getting mad if Lara didn't just so happen to be a woman in this game. If she was, say, "Larry, the young, helpless man who almost gets raped on an island" people would be astounded at how unique of a character Larry was. But no, since it's a woman its incredibly sexist. Like women can't be interesting unique characters in videogames. Good god, some of these posts made me sick.
I just wanted to point out one post in particular for being the single most well thought out post I've seen on the Escapist. I'm sure it's been acknowledged already in this thread, but I got pissed at about page 2 and decided to post my thoughts.
This is simply here for recognition:
The plot wouldn't work if she was already an empowered young woman. The ones who are getting offended don't seem to realize that there isn't going to be one concrete archetype for a character. Honestly, I don't think people would be getting mad if Lara didn't just so happen to be a woman in this game. If she was, say, "Larry, the young, helpless man who almost gets raped on an island" people would be astounded at how unique of a character Larry was. But no, since it's a woman its incredibly sexist. Like women can't be interesting unique characters in videogames. Good god, some of these posts made me sick.
I just wanted to point out one post in particular for being the single most well thought out post I've seen on the Escapist. I'm sure it's been acknowledged already in this thread, but I got pissed at about page 2 and decided to post my thoughts.
This is simply here for recognition:
Elamdri said:
I have held the opinion for a while now that Lara Croft is a seriously fucked up individual who needs to spend the rest of her life in a padded room, and the only reason she doesn't is because she would (and could) slaughter every cop in the county where they sent to arrest her.
This new game looks like it's going to explain just how she got that screwed up, and I welcome that... even if I did cringe like hell at some of the trailer. Still, nothing I've seen implies to me that "being tortured makes you a badass." No, what it said to me is that when you've been pushed beyond the point of physical endurance, you have two choices; surrender and die, or push back. Most people would choose the former. Lara chose the latter.
This new game looks like it's going to explain just how she got that screwed up, and I welcome that... even if I did cringe like hell at some of the trailer. Still, nothing I've seen implies to me that "being tortured makes you a badass." No, what it said to me is that when you've been pushed beyond the point of physical endurance, you have two choices; surrender and die, or push back. Most people would choose the former. Lara chose the latter.
We're getting a prequel for Gears of War. Are we going to 'want to protect' Baird and Cole?connall said:Windknight said:You two said the same thing which bug me a bit. I will probably be called sexist or whatever, but on the internet I don't think I could give a damn.kortin said:
While I understand that the idea of "You want to protect her" makes it sound derogatory but is it really? I mean essentially they want to make her a character you will like so will want to protect her, since you will have hopefully feelings with the character herself, otherwise it would be a character we don't find any need to protect and if that's the case what's the point? We protect every player character in our games through our actions. This is supposed to be Lauras first time out on one of these adventures, she is not some badass bringing guns to the battle she is the equivalent of a University student being lost in the wild, never having to deal with something like this before and is weaker for it. Be it male or female you should want to protect this character as they evolve and eventually begin to come to grips with their surroundings (much like Far Cry 3 I might add, but hey it's a male so that makes it alright!)
People are getting really sensitive with these sort of issues and while I have no problems with it, unless the two people I have quoted are themselves female then are making speculations on what females find offensive which I find slightly derogatory. But what do I know I'm a 16 year old male spouting opinions on a forum that doesn't give a damn, so there is that.
Thats the language that bugs me badly.
We're not going to see lara 'grow and become the hero she is'. The implication is we're not interested in seeing a woman grow and become strong, we have to see someone weak and feel the urge to protect her.
Can you imagine prequels where we 'wanted to protect' Marcus Fenix, Nathan drake, Kratos, the Master Chief, Max Payne, Soap or Snake?
And again, the big crux here is the rape aspect. because Rape is being used here as the writers think its Something That Only Happens To Women. It should NEVER be used in a story unless you know what your doing, and the way its being used here makes it pretty clear they don't know what they're doing
speaking as someone whos been through a fair bit of shit in life i wont mention most of it but the nicest thing i can think of is having to hold my guts in after someones bayonette rammed into it and having to get rid of him shit can change you can make you insane or trigger in my case berserk modes or nightmares,
now in gaming the character being tortured brings empathy often rage against the interogator so it can be a helpful tool in developing a vengeful spirit in the game. Look at Max Payne 1 the first scene where you enter the house and find the dead child of max payne and his wife, whey that came out it was a little disturbing and it got you into the characters head a little bit better
and from what ive seen of others playing CoD theres pretty much torture going on the entire game to the main character but they reckon it adds to the atmosphere of the game, I wouldnt know I dont intend on playing it but fair enough to them
now as much as i dont like it ill admit i dont care about the torture part its just the attempted rape that pisses me off
REASONS
1# rape is a very sensitive destructive crime and should be dealt with by one ruling IMO LIFE IN JAIL PERIOD
2# even under the revised game classification code its not keen to show attempts and say the good guy arriving just a few seconds too late or the after effects or the act itself is actually bannable material hence why we dont have manhunt in australia anymore i heard the last few of the 7 theyve made have really gone off the psychotic deep end
3# i know kids arent spose to play games with MA15 rating but you know they will they always do, only until they get a R rating in should they even suggest the fact it could have happened not that i support that,for instance LA Noire apparently had a mention of a PAST TENSE which is passable under new classification slightly pisses me off but doesnt make my rage boil
4# now GTA sort of crimes (shooting mayhem stealing you know the drill) if its a game like gta and its not glamourised im all for it, even shooters like Syndicate where apparently you blast the bodies apart piece by piece because in games like gta you expect it its what its known for bedlam, and Syndicate and CoD well its a game about war what do you expect. but putting this sort of content in a game that was originally a third person adventure shooter is dispicable it shouldnt be in any game
5# that fact they thought of it means their out of ideas and they are trying to reach the people who have a few screws loose in their heads, the ones that arent neccesarily bad people just have some restrained bad tendancies in their head. id realistically say 80% of people do not want to see it or an attempt or anything to do with it. id like to say the other 20% probably dont give a crap but realistically 15% probably dont care 5% probably get a tickle from it
Theres alot of other ways to make a game dark without it being trashy and without the need to use a dispicable thing, i know im going to get alot of flame for mention the game that should not be named but ME3 was a dark game yes it had about 70% of it being sort of calm before the storm but it was dark they had people dropping dead in a dramatic or honourable way (i am the very model of a scientist salarian) the low lighting in TR i can understand the frantic barely ahead of disaster yeah why not worked well before
also id like to say she cant have been that piss weak in the first place if she doesnt sit there shivering in fright after waking up in a cave, i mean come on she had a ribcage or big ass stick couldnt see what it was, stabbed into her gut and she yanks it out and groans and rolls for about 5 seconds, seen someone react like they were dying when theyd been nicked by a bullet and i mean graze on their neck not even a burst vein (behind left ear)
So maybe its not that shes weak its playing upon a fear and rage of part of the audience and the sick headed side of another part and the nightmare of that happening to another. so maybe its shock and gloom to distract us from her qualities already pre-existing through shitty writing and shock tactics
sorry for the rant just pisses me off, worm in the apple kind of thing aint buying it unless they cut that out
take it easy folks and off to bed i go
PS id also like to point out it doesnt only happen to women too.
Male American soldier held captive by insurgents in the middle east came out 1 month later with 9 STIs force fed viagra he is now incapable of intercourse as well as mentally scarred
Male Russian burgler burst into beauty salon to rob the joint blind got knocked out and fed viagra for 3 days then let go (not being mean but this russian paní was about 150 kilos from the reports i heard, he would not have enjoyed it) mental damage fairly high but happy to not go to a gulag
now in gaming the character being tortured brings empathy often rage against the interogator so it can be a helpful tool in developing a vengeful spirit in the game. Look at Max Payne 1 the first scene where you enter the house and find the dead child of max payne and his wife, whey that came out it was a little disturbing and it got you into the characters head a little bit better
and from what ive seen of others playing CoD theres pretty much torture going on the entire game to the main character but they reckon it adds to the atmosphere of the game, I wouldnt know I dont intend on playing it but fair enough to them
now as much as i dont like it ill admit i dont care about the torture part its just the attempted rape that pisses me off
REASONS
1# rape is a very sensitive destructive crime and should be dealt with by one ruling IMO LIFE IN JAIL PERIOD
2# even under the revised game classification code its not keen to show attempts and say the good guy arriving just a few seconds too late or the after effects or the act itself is actually bannable material hence why we dont have manhunt in australia anymore i heard the last few of the 7 theyve made have really gone off the psychotic deep end
3# i know kids arent spose to play games with MA15 rating but you know they will they always do, only until they get a R rating in should they even suggest the fact it could have happened not that i support that,for instance LA Noire apparently had a mention of a PAST TENSE which is passable under new classification slightly pisses me off but doesnt make my rage boil
4# now GTA sort of crimes (shooting mayhem stealing you know the drill) if its a game like gta and its not glamourised im all for it, even shooters like Syndicate where apparently you blast the bodies apart piece by piece because in games like gta you expect it its what its known for bedlam, and Syndicate and CoD well its a game about war what do you expect. but putting this sort of content in a game that was originally a third person adventure shooter is dispicable it shouldnt be in any game
5# that fact they thought of it means their out of ideas and they are trying to reach the people who have a few screws loose in their heads, the ones that arent neccesarily bad people just have some restrained bad tendancies in their head. id realistically say 80% of people do not want to see it or an attempt or anything to do with it. id like to say the other 20% probably dont give a crap but realistically 15% probably dont care 5% probably get a tickle from it
Theres alot of other ways to make a game dark without it being trashy and without the need to use a dispicable thing, i know im going to get alot of flame for mention the game that should not be named but ME3 was a dark game yes it had about 70% of it being sort of calm before the storm but it was dark they had people dropping dead in a dramatic or honourable way (i am the very model of a scientist salarian) the low lighting in TR i can understand the frantic barely ahead of disaster yeah why not worked well before
also id like to say she cant have been that piss weak in the first place if she doesnt sit there shivering in fright after waking up in a cave, i mean come on she had a ribcage or big ass stick couldnt see what it was, stabbed into her gut and she yanks it out and groans and rolls for about 5 seconds, seen someone react like they were dying when theyd been nicked by a bullet and i mean graze on their neck not even a burst vein (behind left ear)
So maybe its not that shes weak its playing upon a fear and rage of part of the audience and the sick headed side of another part and the nightmare of that happening to another. so maybe its shock and gloom to distract us from her qualities already pre-existing through shitty writing and shock tactics
sorry for the rant just pisses me off, worm in the apple kind of thing aint buying it unless they cut that out
take it easy folks and off to bed i go
PS id also like to point out it doesnt only happen to women too.
Male American soldier held captive by insurgents in the middle east came out 1 month later with 9 STIs force fed viagra he is now incapable of intercourse as well as mentally scarred
Male Russian burgler burst into beauty salon to rob the joint blind got knocked out and fed viagra for 3 days then let go (not being mean but this russian paní was about 150 kilos from the reports i heard, he would not have enjoyed it) mental damage fairly high but happy to not go to a gulag