Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...

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Woodsey

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ninjaRiv said:
Sexuality in the previous Hitman games was used to emphasise the fact that 47 is an asexual killer clone with a broad distaste for everyone he meets. Everyone is either 'roided-up or packed full of silicone. That would then scale given the location - if you're at a sex party, people are gonna dress like it.

In the Absolution trailer, they strip down to fetish gear for no reason. It's outside a motel in the middle of the day. It's ridiculous, and it serves no purpose. The problem with it isn't "oh, he beats up women, the horror". The problem is that it was made in an attempt to give a 13-year-old boy a wet dream. I mean really, it's more embarrassing that they think that's how we want to be marketed at.

Context matters. A lot.
 

ninjaRiv

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Woodsey said:
ninjaRiv said:
And on the subject of the Hitman controversey:

What's really wrong with it? I'm thinking equality should mean that a woman can dress how she wants and attack any super assassin clone she wants.

So the problem is how they dress? Right, because no woman dresses like a slutty nun. Never happened before, no way, no how. But you're right, they should be dressing more appropriately to suit this game based on a clone assassin that dresses up in disguises and goes to Santa's grotto, underground sex clubs and so on.

Even if they wore cardigans and trousers, people could find something sexist about it. If you're looking for sexism, you're going to find it even if it's not intended.
Sexuality in the previous Hitman games was used to emphasise the fact that 47 is an asexual killer clone with a broad distaste for everyone he meets. Everyone is either 'roided-up or packed full of silicone. That would then scale given the location - if you're at a sex party, people are gonna dress like it.

In the Absolution trailer, they strip down to fetish gear for no reason. It's outside a motel in the middle of the day. It's ridiculous, and it serves no purpose. The problem with it isn't "oh, he beats up women, the horror". The problem is that it was made in an attempt to give a 13-year-old boy a wet dream. I mean really, it's more embarrassing that they think that's how we want to be marketed at.
Hmm... Ok, I see your point there. I still don't think it's as bad as everyone says but I do now mostly agree with you. Good game, sir!

Although, the optimist in me likes to think this was just some classic Hitman humour that didn't go the right way.
 

Woodsey

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ninjaRiv said:
Woodsey said:
ninjaRiv said:
And on the subject of the Hitman controversey:

What's really wrong with it? I'm thinking equality should mean that a woman can dress how she wants and attack any super assassin clone she wants.

So the problem is how they dress? Right, because no woman dresses like a slutty nun. Never happened before, no way, no how. But you're right, they should be dressing more appropriately to suit this game based on a clone assassin that dresses up in disguises and goes to Santa's grotto, underground sex clubs and so on.

Even if they wore cardigans and trousers, people could find something sexist about it. If you're looking for sexism, you're going to find it even if it's not intended.
Sexuality in the previous Hitman games was used to emphasise the fact that 47 is an asexual killer clone with a broad distaste for everyone he meets. Everyone is either 'roided-up or packed full of silicone. That would then scale given the location - if you're at a sex party, people are gonna dress like it.

In the Absolution trailer, they strip down to fetish gear for no reason. It's outside a motel in the middle of the day. It's ridiculous, and it serves no purpose. The problem with it isn't "oh, he beats up women, the horror". The problem is that it was made in an attempt to give a 13-year-old boy a wet dream. I mean really, it's more embarrassing that they think that's how we want to be marketed at.
Hmm... Ok, I see your point there. I still don't think it's as bad as everyone says but I do now mostly agree with you. Good game, sir!

Although, the optimist in me likes to think this was just some classic Hitman humour that didn't go the right way.
Eh, personally I don't get the impression that anything in Absolution is 'classic Hitman', but that's another thread's worth of discussion.
 

Sixcess

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Woodsey said:
Sixcess said:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/12/the-two-deaths-that-defined-tomb-raider/

Yeah, read.
I did read it. The way you can tell that is that I quoted from the article.

I've already responded to the article. Why would I need to read it again?

Edit: let me put that a different way, if you've got something to say then say it in your own words rather than a two word flip off to someone else's ideas.
 

Woodsey

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Sixcess said:
Woodsey said:
Sixcess said:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/12/the-two-deaths-that-defined-tomb-raider/

Yeah, read.
I did read it. The way you can tell that is that I quoted from the article.

I've already responded to the article. Why would I need to read it again?

Edit: let me put that a different way, if you've got something to say then say it in your own words rather than a two word flip off to someone else's ideas.
... what?

The OP's link is a link to Kotaku with some very selective interview quotations, mine is a RPS link to a preview of the scene in question that actually discusses it from first-hand experience.

Helps if you check that kind of thing before you, y'know, get your snark on. (But thanks, because I love getting mine on.)
 

UltraPic

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Xemseige said:
Something I wonder is did any of the previous Tomb Raider games sexualize Laura in game? Were male characters in the games eyeing her or was it just the audience? And even if there were male characters in game that did eye her, I don't think it was in a dangerous manner.
Yes they did, the whole (original) concept of Lara Croft wouldn't have worked otherwise.
 

ayvee

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They're replacing one fantasy with another one, on the opposite end of the spectrum. The E3 trailer was disgusting and that interview was disgusting. I'm hoping that the game itself is less so, but it has definitely moved much farther down my must-buy list over the course of the past week.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Its just a game character. If a person allows their ideas of woman to be corrupted over some game character then there is something wrong with you. Do we let Mario make us think badly about plumbers that are Italian? Do we get caught about Voldo in Soul Calibre, obvious he has major mental issues but we dont mention he is bad example of mental people. What about all those dumb overly muscled male characters, they are highly sexist against men in general.

As for "protecting the weak woman" thing. Men know woman are not weak and need protecting. But the idea of that is still ingrained in us. Same as being a gentleman and opening a door for a woman or helping her carry a heavy box. I think your looking way to much into this thing. We know the difference between a real woman and whats in a game. We dont judge real woman based on games, movies or models....and the men that do are retarded and idolise fantasy instead of reality. An if you really feel bad about it, i think you should look towards magazines for a negative idea of woman where they are airbrushed and sold as real and do way more damage to woman and girls identity about their body than a game ever could.
 

Beliyal

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Jun 7, 2010
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Greyah said:
Because it's Lara Croft, and Tomb Raider we're talking about. People expect Lara Croft to be a serious yet fun-loving English lady, richer than the world, who travels the world in search of powerful artifacts for shits and giggles. She also shoots stuff.

So far, what I've read about the new game is going to break that. I wouldn't mind or care much if they called it any other character and game, but once again, it's Lara Croft and Tomb Raider.

What is also weird is that this is supposed to take place before she became the badass, treasure hunting, tomb raiding, gun toting lady she is right now. I recall there being both Tomb Raider 4 as well as Legend and Underworld, that both had bits about Lara's past. In the TR4 bit, she was very young, probably not even an adult yet. She was already hunting treasures by then, I recall. So did the new Tomb Raider happen before that? How old is she supposed to be in the new game anyway? If it's supposed to have happened before the TR4 bit, she'd be in puberty in the new game, if not before that. That makes it a lot creepier all of a sudden.
Someone already answered this, but once more; it's a reboot. As far as I understand it, most, if not all, of what happened in all the earlier games is currently questionable as to whether it happened or not (or will happen). Lara in the newest TR is definitely older than the Lara in TR4 bit (and a section of TR5 as well). I suppose those bits are being ignored for the sake of the reboot because Lara is clearly a newbie in the new game (seeing creepy things in the night shouldn't bother her much if the TR5 Ireland levels happened). So yeah, it's being rebooted as a whole, I guess.

To the OP; I think you're overreacting a little bit, yes. I am a massive Tomb Raider fan since I was 11 (that's almost 13 years now); I'm also a woman (and an archaeology student at that) and this new Lara definitely didn't invoke sexist feels in me. She is young and inexperienced and she is forced to face things that would make most of us wet our pants and weep for our mother. Hopefully, we will see her grow from a scared girl into a hardcore woman we know her as, and I can't be more excited to see that. Lara was always a character that I admired, but I couldn't connect with her because she's basically a robot that can't be killed, can't be threatened, can't be intimidated. It's fun to play like that, but after so many games and so many years spent with that character, it is nice that someone has decided to give those pixels something we can have feelings for. To me, games are infinitely more enjoyable if there are actual stakes and if I develop feelings for the protagonist that I move around and shoot with.

cynicalandbored said:
To aspire to be new Lara would be the pinnacle of insanity. Here is a young woman who is portrayed as being totally helpless and vulnerable. Yes, she learns to fend for herself. Yes, by the end of the game we can assume she'll be strong and independent with a badass attitude. But what does it take for her to achieve this? This wilting violet of a girl has to be subjected to more hideous torture and brutality than any of us are ever likely to experience. The implication of this is that the only way for a woman to develop an attitude and be able to look after herself is for her to undergo unspeakable hardship. And of course to have the big male ego of the gamer caring for her at every step. The fact that this hardship has to be rape as opposed to anything else is truly despicable.
Well, (almost) rape isn't the only hardship she endures in the game. So far from the trailers, I saw many different hardships that are still more relatable and mature than the prospect of running into a t-rex in a Peruvian jungle and killing it with pistols. As a matter of fact, enduring all these hardships at the beginning of her adventurous life kinda explains her attitude towards most of what she faces in the later games (whether it's canon or not). Why is that if the character is at one point "vulnerable", it immediately means that he/she is a weakling who needs protection and can never be redeemed? To be an actual character, you need strength as well as weakness, and Lara at the beginning of the game is weak, yes, but she overcomes it. That makes her more badass than the RobotLara who somersaults over a t-rex. The player "helps" her along the way, and it feels like helping only if you can actually relate with the character. Otherwise, it seems like you're just in the way. As for the "big male ego of a gamer caring for her"; men are not the only ones who play games. My female ego will aid Lara in her hardships, with pleasure. I do not think of it as protecting, I think of it as helping her on the way. There is nothing wrong with that, and you are not suddenly a weak damsel in distress; you are a human being. Something Lara never really was. I look forward to seeing how that will go.
 

bafrali

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This is one of the issues with prequals. They usually don't add up or live up to expectations of former audience familiar with the franchise. It is usually a result of bad writing, outsourcing or trendy marketing. Oh wait!!! That was DmC....*Ba dum Tshh*.

Also i find this relevant http://www.teamfortress.com/meetthedirector/
 

Soxafloppin

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Jun 22, 2009
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I'l be getting it.

Not because of some symbolism of having Average sized tits, but because it looks like a Good game, which when you consider we're talking about a Tomb Raider game is really something..
 

Woodsey

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Soxafloppin said:
I'l be getting it.

Not because of some symbolism of having Average sized tits, but because it looks like a Good game, which when you consider we're talking about a Tomb Raider game is really something..
What, you're not an Angel of Darkness fan?
 

Eamar

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I for one am really looking forward to this game and was pleasantly surprised to see Lara Croft of all characters(!) being redesigned as a not-overly-sexualised woman. I am far more interested in playing this game than any of the others, so if they're trying for a new audience they're doing a good job from where I'm standing.

I will reserve judgement on the attempted rape until I've seen it in the context of the whole game. If they can deal with it in a sensitive, mature manner (and who knows, they might) then I fail to see how that can be a bad thing.

Her being vulnerable and us wanting to protect her makes perfect sense to me, given that she's a 21 year old woman straight out of college who's been thrown into the middle of a very dangerous situation. I'm pretty sure I'd be vulnerable in that situation (also, holy crap a character I might be able to relate to more than usual. Bonus.) I want to protect my younger sister when she's having a hard time. Doesn't mean I respect her any less as a woman. Hell, I want to protect my boyfriend when he's unhappy. I wanted to protect Alistair in DA:O. I think trying to link this to her gender is unnecessary, is what I'm saying.

As for those complaining about how this ties in with the previous games, while I can totally understand being attached to a franchise, it's a reboot. You kind of have to accept that.

I saw an interview with the devs recently, and they said that they wanted to make a more mature game this time. That's their call, and I can only applaud them for having the balls to take such an iconic franchise in a new direction.

But really, the game isn't even out yet. Everything we're all saying is pure speculation. Doesn't this seem a bit silly to anyone else?
 

MiriaJiyuu

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Elate said:
I'm going to do something totally shocking, and buy the game, try it, and then decide if it was a poor attempt at implementing drama in a game or a good story telling aspect that allowed me to connect with the character.

Is that so difficult?
Common sense says that this is what we should do, but if everyone followed common sense this forum wouldn't exist. I'll be doing the same thing as you though since, you know, it makes sense.
 

Charli

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...I ...ugh I'm not joining the debate just leaving my own touch.

I feel you are overreacting, the story intrigues me, it has the potential to be compelling and handled well, but it probably won't be.

I think everyone is way WAY over thinking this.

If they handle her story well, then angels will descend from on high to bless the Tomb Raider franchise with a gold star and a rebirth certificate, if not we'll all just pick apart where the sexism does horrible things to the story and forget about it within a year or so.

As someone with ...endowment not dissimilar from Ms. Croft, I can't say I'm not on board with the edgier incentive to be a gunslinging, so cocky you could call her a rooster, female version of Nathan Drake and Batman rolled up into an overtly sexual Boobs and Ass monster. It kind of detracts from her ability to be a relatable character and hell if they can sell her now to Women as well as Men older than 14, I'd call that an accomplishment.

They tried this before with a few subplots and it kind of failed. Giving it another shot won't hurt anyone but the investors..
 

omicron1

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Good grief, people complain a lot. Old Lara is too sexualized, new Lara is too vulnerable, Alyx is too independent... Gah.

Yes, the way the game seems to be going is distinctly uncomfortable. I think that's the point, though - it's meant to be uncomfortable. Not in a sexual way; in a "My God, that's disturbing" way. Yes, it's heavy-handed. But what isn't in gaming?

It actually reminds me of the recent Max Payne game - a character under more stress than humanly possible, and their reactions to it. Max Payne made me uncomfortable just from the relentlessness of it; I'd hope Tomb Raider manages an emergent ending to compensate for the bleakness, but maybe that's just me.

Anyway. Did any of you angry gentlemen have the same problem with Max as you do with Laura? He's used, and abused, for nine straight hours; isn't it a horrible act of anti-male barbarism? Or is it possible that viewing Tomb Raider through an angry-feminist lens is informing your views on that game, instead?

My point is, it's not what you fear it is. Probably. Lay off. Give it a chance. We'll see in March.
 

Sirron Kcuch

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Seriously? A dark game does not equal a mature game.

If the horror of sexual violence is explored, rather than just thrown into the screen for shock value.
The problem is not Lara (whose redesign I find great), but rather the storytelling. Right now it just seems to mention rape, but not the consecuences or the psychology behind it. I mean, do we really think the believable way to react to sexual abuse would be spendind the rest of one's life looking for treasure?

Anyway, we'll see when this game launches. It has potential to move the industry forward if it works, after all.
 

Substitute Troll

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People are reading too much into this. It'll propably be fine. Some people will get offended by the game, because people get offended by fucking everything, but it won't be over anything major. I think they have this under control. She's obviously not going to become this awesome badass JUST BECAUSE she's NEARLY raped, she's stuck on a goddamn island in the middle of nowhere, she has to teach herself lots of things, of course she's gonna come out tougher from it. As for the "wanting to protect her" part, she's what, 20 years old in this game? That's quite young. Barely out of high school. Don't you think that might have been what he was talking about?
 

For.I.Am.Mad

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I didn't like the Dragon Tattoo vibe I got from the trailer. Wether it's raped, nearly raped or just groped, I don't like seeing that. I hope the game is more than 'Watch horrible things happen to the Lara Croft.'

If you're going to go female empowerment route you have to go the Hunger Games direction.