Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...

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anthony87

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Flight said:
SajuukKhar said:
Everyone needs to be a invulnerable uber-tank sper-soliders that is basically a gun with elgs?
There's a difference between "realistic situations" and "look what we did to add drama! Oh, and do you know Lara Croft is female?" which is what the interviews are coming off as. And the "invulnerable uber tank" is hardly what I'm saying - note that I pointed out vulnerability in someone as young and inexperienced as Lara is in the reboot is only to be expected.. Resorting to ridiculous, unfounded extremes isn't helping your argument, either.
I actually agree wholeheartedly. Now what exactly is unrealistic about a young, attractive girl trapped on a tropical island being captured by a bunch of pirates/smugglers/whatever they are and then proceeding to be leered at or felt up by one of them?
 

SajuukKhar

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Flight said:
There's a difference between "realistic situations" and "look what we did to add drama! Oh, and do you know Lara Croft is female?"
That is, quite literally, not how they came off as at all.

They came off as "here is a character that went through rough shit and became a badass because of it", they could easily replace lara with a male character like Nathan Drake and NOTHING would change.

Flight said:
Resorting to ridiculous, unfounded extremes isn't helping your argument, either.
Its kinda hard not to when you argument is equally ridiculous.
 

Flight

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SajuukKhar said:
Flight said:
There's a difference between "realistic situations" and "look what we did to add drama! Oh, and do you know Lara Croft is female?"
That is, quite literally, not how they came off as at all.

Flight said:
Resorting to ridiculous, unfounded extremes isn't helping your argument, either.
Its kinda hard not to when you argument is equally ridiculous.
Sorry, but have you actually read the interviews? You know, the ones where the executive producer is making a Big Deal out of how vulnerable and fragile she is, pointing out the the players will want to "protect" her? I understand that she's going to be, quite realistically, terrified. That's only natural in a situation like that. However, while rape can be handled tastefully and carefully, the way the producer's handled it here is why I'm explaining the situation as such.
anthony87 said:
I actually agree wholeheartedly. Now what exactly is unrealistic about a young, attractive girl trapped on a tropical island being captured by a bunch of pirates/smugglers/whatever they are and then proceeding to be leered at or felt up by one of them?
Given that smugglers and other criminals using ransoms with extra money for the women remaining untouched being ordered does happen in real life, I'm not quite sure where you think my expectations are unrealistic.
 
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Other than the implied rape threats, which, I'll agree is too much, I don't see why everyone is up in arms about the game. Yes, Croft was a total badass in her previous outings, but like all heroes, there has to be an origin. This game is it. I believe it's meant to show her transformation into the Croft we all know.
 

Kahunaburger

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SajuukKhar said:
They come off as "here is a character that went through rough shit and became a badass because of it", they could easily replace lara with a male character like Nathan Drake and NOTHING would change.
?When people play Nathan, they don?t really project themselves into the character,? Rosenberg told me at E3 last week when I asked if it was difficult to develop for a male protagonist.

?They?re more like ?I want to protect him.? There?s this sort of dynamic of ?I?m going to this adventure with him and trying to protect him.??

?He?s definitely the hero but? you?re kind of like his helper,? he said. ?When you see him have to face these challenges, you start to root for him in a way that you might not root for a female character.?
"You see that in the beginning of the game, where we begin to build him up and give him confidence to cross the ledge, cross the plane, he forages for food and he?s feeling really successful. Then towards the end we start to really hit him, and to break him down. His best friend is kidnapped, he?s taken hostage, he?s almost raped, we put him in this position where we turned him into a cornered animal.?
I dunno, man, I'm not sure those still sound like things that developer would say if you swap the pronouns.
 

SajuukKhar

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Kahunaburger said:
I dunno, man, I'm not sure those still sound like things that developer would say if you swap the pronouns.
I might actually want to play a Uncharted game if the Dev said that.

I hated the Uncharted games cuz I didn't feel anything for Nathan Drake, he didn't need me, hes already a gun with legs. It didn't feel like the game, the thing I'm suppose to be playing, needed me, because it was already established the character is just a uber-boss.
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I want to play an uncharted game were Nathan gets captured by some dudes and gets the shit beat out of him, the ever loving crap just beat out him.

And I dont want him to go all Hollywood and come out of it perfectly fine 3 seconds later, and only make passing reference to how it "changed" him despite nothing about him actually changing.
 

hubert

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superbatranger said:
Other than the implied rape threats, which, I'll agree is too much, I don't see why everyone is up in arms about the game. Yes, Croft was a total badass in her previous outings, but like all heroes, there has to be an origin. This game is it. I believe it's meant to show her transformation into the Croft we all know.
Edit
 

Murmillos

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Once again, the misinformed hear the word 'rape' and froth at the mouth while putting their fingers in their ears going "laa-laa-laa I'll believe what I make up and I'm going to force you to believe it too." How immature.

The developer only used the contexts of 'intended rape' AFTER everybody saw the scene of the intended rape scene to clearly state; "These are the horrors that Lara has to go thru, and you as the player will want to protect her." And that gets taken out of contexts of hey, shes going to get ganged raped and you get to QTE the assault. "gitty gitty goo..."
 

EvilRoy

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hubert said:
superbatranger said:
Other than the implied rape threats, which, I'll agree is too much, I don't see why everyone is up in arms about the game. Yes, Croft was a total badass in her previous outings, but like all heroes, there has to be an origin. This game is it. I believe it's meant to show her transformation into the Croft we all know.
But did we ever know her? Was she ever anything more than a murder machine with breasts?(The mental image....)
That's what I've been thinking myself...

The way this trailer is put out there, it seems like they're trying to tell us a story about how Lara was this sweet innocent girl who got really messed up, and then survived and became a badass action girl.

But honestly, I don't think she ever did become a badass action girl. All Lara has ever been is a female that kills man and animal indiscriminately for the sake of personal gain. At least Indianna Jones did it because 'they belong in a museum', Lara just murders people who are clearly worse off financially than she is for the sake of her wallet, or occasionally an 'it's too powerful to be owned' excuse.
 

runic knight

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Well, this was funny. Reading the first post, I have to assume they are being ignorant and patronizing. Why, when they are trying to claim this incarnation is sexist? I'd damn near say projection, but I think it is just misunderstanding.

The theme of the game seems to be that of someone starting weak, going through hell, and emerging stronger as a result. This is a common thematic device in storytelling is gender neutral to all extent and purpose. When up in a game, it is not an idea of a male player "protecting and guiding" a female character, it is a player (gender whatever), playing and directing the character (again, gender whatever) as they go through the story that explains how the character changed and became stronger. And it is important to remember that this is a story, a telling of how her character changed and grew from a dramatic experience. The player is not protecting and guiding a weaker gender. They are playing a game with a weaker protagonist. The fact the thread starter seems so hung up on the gender in this comes off as patronizing. Why can't a woman change and go through hell? I hear other posters mentioning this as exploitative (I will agree the depictions of brutality and torture are), yet they seem hung up on it like it is a gender unique aspect. It is exploitative regardless of gender and it feels like concentrating on it like it is an issue of sexism presents the idea they are defending her because of her gender. It isn't the issue, it is the gender the issue affects.

Now there are aspects worth mentioning that could be sexist in nature. The wording used on the character interaction. The use of rape. The changing of the character design. The personality prior to the events. These are all understandable aspects to raise concern, but none of them are as bad as they seem in this effect.

The first, and I would say most obvious, is the wording of the developers on the game. Now granted I have heard similar descriptions about playing the sims (that you guide, direct, protect from themselves, etc.), I will agree it sounds a little sexist. Who knows, maybe they look at it that way. I do not think it is reflected by the entirety of the team or is the intent of the game itself though. That seems a large leap.

The use of rape? Bad taste, and while a predominately female issue (though not always), this seems to pull back more in it being exploitative in general and not merely about female. They want grisly dark and shocking. Torture and rape. It honestly seems done solely for that purpose rather then some underlying sexism. Are the saw films sexist for similarly being exploitative and using female characters? If you say they also use male characters, perhaps we will see men being tortured and the like in the game too.

Character change? Well, she looks more human now and less fantasy. That should be a plus. And her personality is toned down quite a bit, understandable difference when using the theme they are, where the character changes. Personality and attitude tend to be something that changes the most during that sort of journey. And since we already know the end result (the attitude people refer to), you got to work backwards to find a change. And obvious change, and one reflected in male protagonists who follow the same theme, is to be unconfident, scared, lack resolve. Hey, look at what they picked for the game...


Honestly, I look at this and see a lot of fuss over stupid shit, so much so to the point I think it is detrimental to the ideal of equality among genders. People whine that she is weaker, yet ignore that is a genderless theme trope. They complain about it exploiting her, yet ignore that exploitation would apply in many ways the same way regardless of gender, carrying it on when rape is thrown in, ignoring the habit of using it exploitative i storytelling and instead seeing it as more sexist in nature. They see the role the player takes as one with a gender even when no such gender is truly there (gals and guys alike can play, after all), and they are instead attributing characteristics the player, while guiding the character, will take on to a male identity, an ironic bit of falling for what is claimed of the game itself.

Bottom line is this. I think most people raising this much of a stink are reading too far into things and judging things through their own lens, even long before the game itself is released to be judged on it's own merit. Honestly, I'd wait til it is done and sent out before whining, else you start to resemble fools like a certain asshole lawyer who tried to condemn "Bully" because of the history of the game's developer and a lot of preconceived notions.
 

00slash00

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are...are you serious? i never heard the game argue that larger breasts make a person less of a woman. are you saying that just because they wanted to make her more of a character and less of a sex object, by making her proportions more realistic, they are saying people with big boobs are inferior? because thats just stupid. but if you wanna look at this logically, in order for a woman to be as agile and fast as laura needs to be, larger breasts are not helpful. maybe they simply wanted a laura croft who isnt suffering from crippling back problems. as for her being weaker, well its supposed to be a prequel. its supposed to show how laura developed the skills she has. you cant really show skills being developed, if the person already has them from the start.

as a feminist and someone who identifies as female, you really seem to be grasping at straws. it almost seems like youre upset that laura isnt as sexualized and want to think of reasons why its sexist to make her more than just a sex object
 

EvilRoy

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00slash00 said:
are...are you serious? i never heard the game argue that larger breasts make a person less of a woman. are you saying that just because they wanted to make her more of a character and less of a sex object, by making her proportions more realistic, they are saying people with big boobs are inferior? because thats just stupid. but if you wanna look at this logically, in order for a woman to be as agile and fast as laura needs to be, larger breasts are not helpful. maybe they simply wanted a laura croft who isnt suffering from crippling back problems. as for her being weaker, well its supposed to be a prequel. its supposed to show how laura developed the skills she has. you cant really show skills being developed, if the person already has them from the start.

as a feminist and someone who identifies as female, you really seem to be grasping at straws. it almost seems like youre upset that laura isnt as sexualized and want to think of reasons why its sexist to make her more than just a sex object
Well personally, it's less that desexualisation is bad, it's the implied admission that she had originally been intended as a sex object.

Was she sexualised? Well I guess we know for sure she was now, because they just took steps to reverse it, but taking it all back now just seems like a cop out. These are the guys who made her face look oddly flat for how many games in an effort to remain true to the original appearance in the first game, despite the fact that the whole reason she looked like that was due to technological restraints.

Wanna add gritty mature topics to a game? Go right ahead I suppose, but don't gloss over your own previous immaturity in handling the main character. Admit to it, accept the reality that this is what we have to work with now, and move forward. Don't pretend that it never happened, and don't push the character creation slider to the other side of the bar this many games in. It just makes you look like you got better at pretending your mature, rather than having experienced any real development.
 

chadachada123

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EvilRoy said:
00slash00 said:
are...are you serious? i never heard the game argue that larger breasts make a person less of a woman. are you saying that just because they wanted to make her more of a character and less of a sex object, by making her proportions more realistic, they are saying people with big boobs are inferior? because thats just stupid. but if you wanna look at this logically, in order for a woman to be as agile and fast as laura needs to be, larger breasts are not helpful. maybe they simply wanted a laura croft who isnt suffering from crippling back problems. as for her being weaker, well its supposed to be a prequel. its supposed to show how laura developed the skills she has. you cant really show skills being developed, if the person already has them from the start.

as a feminist and someone who identifies as female, you really seem to be grasping at straws. it almost seems like youre upset that laura isnt as sexualized and want to think of reasons why its sexist to make her more than just a sex object
Well personally, it's less that desexualisation is bad, it's the implied admission that she had originally been intended as a sex object.

Was she sexualised? Well I guess we know for sure she was now, because they just took steps to reverse it, but taking it all back now just seems like a cop out. These are the guys who made her face look oddly flat for how many games in an effort to remain true to the original appearance in the first game, despite the fact that the whole reason she looked like that was due to technological restraints.

Wanna add gritty mature topics to a game? Go right ahead I suppose, but don't gloss over your own previous immaturity in handling the main character. Admit to it, accept the reality that this is what we have to work with now, and move forward. Don't pretend that it never happened, and don't push the character creation slider to the other side of the bar this many games in. It just makes you look like you got better at pretending your mature, rather than having experienced any real development.
I don't know, I don't see anything wrong with the idea that since she's a reboot, she should look slightly different than the original. A different boob size isn't an admission that there was anything wrong with the old version (though I do think the first was sexualized, that's not the point).
 

EvilRoy

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chadachada123 said:
EvilRoy said:
00slash00 said:
are...are you serious? i never heard the game argue that larger breasts make a person less of a woman. are you saying that just because they wanted to make her more of a character and less of a sex object, by making her proportions more realistic, they are saying people with big boobs are inferior? because thats just stupid. but if you wanna look at this logically, in order for a woman to be as agile and fast as laura needs to be, larger breasts are not helpful. maybe they simply wanted a laura croft who isnt suffering from crippling back problems. as for her being weaker, well its supposed to be a prequel. its supposed to show how laura developed the skills she has. you cant really show skills being developed, if the person already has them from the start.

as a feminist and someone who identifies as female, you really seem to be grasping at straws. it almost seems like youre upset that laura isnt as sexualized and want to think of reasons why its sexist to make her more than just a sex object
Well personally, it's less that desexualisation is bad, it's the implied admission that she had originally been intended as a sex object.

Was she sexualised? Well I guess we know for sure she was now, because they just took steps to reverse it, but taking it all back now just seems like a cop out. These are the guys who made her face look oddly flat for how many games in an effort to remain true to the original appearance in the first game, despite the fact that the whole reason she looked like that was due to technological restraints.

Wanna add gritty mature topics to a game? Go right ahead I suppose, but don't gloss over your own previous immaturity in handling the main character. Admit to it, accept the reality that this is what we have to work with now, and move forward. Don't pretend that it never happened, and don't push the character creation slider to the other side of the bar this many games in. It just makes you look like you got better at pretending your mature, rather than having experienced any real development.
I don't know, I don't see anything wrong with the idea that since she's a reboot, she should look slightly different than the original. A different boob size isn't an admission that there was anything wrong with the old version (though I do think the first was sexualized, that's not the point).
I guess the way I see it is in what they chose to change and what they chose to keep the same. A reboot can certainly do whatever they want in terms of the main character and story, but the way they've gone about it comes off in a negative light for me.

When I see they have very specifically altered the main character to conform to what is considered to be a more accurate and mature portrayal of a female it really just tells me that they don't want to admit their prior stance was, shall we say, less enlightened.

A person that wants to seem mature changes what they created when they did not want to seem mature into a more acceptable form, and pretends that the change they've made completely excuses the past.

A person that has developed and become more mature accepts what they have created previously, and builds off it to create a more enlightened product. They make no excuse as to the past, nor do they pretend it didn't happen, they simply proceed as they must to produce what they now realise is a superior, more mature product.
 

Wolfheart

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A serious, non-sexualised female protagonist in legitimate danger from her psychotic opponents, oh god cover my eyes and give me the latest edition of Picture magazine. Was not going to get it from announcement but I am because its an attempt to mare a stupid shallow milkmaid a real human being.
 

mronoc

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Addressing the OP:

First off, the description of her being less sexually empowered because she's vulnerable to rape is absolutely ludicrous, and kind of offensive to every woman, because rape isn't really something one can be immune to. Secondly, how is she portrayed as weak and helpless, because she's frantic? That's like saying any feat of heroism accomplished while frightened (see: probably most of them) doesn't count. She's not perfect, she doesn't immediately know exactly what to do in any of these situations, but she keeps going any way, until she finds a way through. That's not helpless, that's how any real person in this kind of situation who had any hope of survival would act.
 

MercurySteam

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cynicalandbored said:
To aspire to be new Lara would be the pinnacle of insanity. Here is a young woman who is portrayed as being totally helpless and vulnerable. Yes, she learns to fend for herself. Yes, by the end of the game we can assume she'll be strong and independent with a badass attitude. But what does it take for her to achieve this? This wilting violet of a girl has to be subjected to more hideous torture and brutality than any of us are ever likely to experience. The implication of this is that the only way for a woman to develop an attitude and be able to look after herself is for her to undergo unspeakable hardship. And of course to have the big male ego of the gamer caring for her at every step. The fact that this hardship has to be rape as opposed to anything else is truly despicable.
Oh boy this is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened but what the hey, I'm already here.

When choosing to aspire to fictional characters, videogame characters (especially the ones of late) aren't really what I'd call great role models. I know people who think Marcus Fenix and Master Chief are awesome but I don't think they particularly want to spend years in prison or be abducted as a child. Just cause you aspire to be like a character doesn't mean that you have to go through the same traumatic experiences as them. Let's be honest, you'll never be as awesome as fictional characters so to suggest that you must be held to the same standards if you wish to be like them is folly.

This game is about Lara's own personal experiences and obstacles she had to overcome, no about what it takes to become a strong woman. And remember, this is a fictional game so trying to relate it may have a hard time but remember that this pertains to Lara herself and her trials and tribulations
 

IWCAS

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I love seeing how a fake person can upset people just because of her breast size.

Hey, at least we're still human. We seem to be offended by anything and everything; this just confirms that. I won't be buying the game because I don't give a shit about Tomb Raider. I don't give a shit about Laura Croft either.