Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...

[tzimize]

Like I always said, if people want to be offended they will find a way to be offended.

But in no way does the game suggest all people must undergo torture in order to be skillful, it simply tells her story and how she came about this.
Still I won't be buying it either for similar reasons, depictions of genuine torture and watching people suffer is not my idea of entertainment, yes I am well aware that such things happen but I will never seek them out let alone pay for them.

Agree with the first thing you said, and I think OP is somewhat of a...well...his post wasnt very good imo.

Lots of women are vulnerable. They are the inferior sex, physically at least. So of course they are vulnerable. Men have traditionally had the protector of the family role going on, so why they shouldnt still feel that way, even for digital women is no wonder to me. And if some feminists idiots come spitting in my eye....I wont care. The sexes are worth the same, but they are not equal. There is a difference.

I will not actively seek out abusive scenes to be entertained, its not about that at all. But not all entertainment products are about cheap laughs and big explosions. Is rape cool? No, of course not. Do I want to see it happen? No, of course not. But I remember seeing Dogville. There is a rape scene in there, and it is extremely awful and interesting to watch. Dogville is a pretty special film, and I did not regret seeing it. Good entertainment can be born from horrible situations. Not good as in a barrel of laughs, but good as in interesting.

Hopefully the new Tomb Raider will be a bit more interesting than a bag of pixels doing silly handstands on cliffs.

 

[lacktheknack]

The sexes are worth the same, but they are not equal. There is a difference.

Don't you mean that the sexes are equal, but not the same? That's probably more correct.

For instance, 3+5 is not the same as 9-1, but 3+5 = 9-1.

 

[lacktheknack]

I wonder what will happen when it gets to the rape scene? Will we have a quick time event to escape or actual controlled action? If so i'm going to put the controller down at that point sit back and drink a cold beer and watch the fun.

They're prepared for terrible people like you, and have said somewhere that the rape attempt is completely automated and unfailable. The sequence that follows is straight up life and death.

 

[cynicalandbored]

You make a number of excellent points and I will not be playing the game either. I only take issue with your slightly unbalanced assessment of male players -

Men may have been more focused on her breasts, but the fact that she had an attitude was inescapable, albeit an attitude that occasionally spilled over into parody. In some ways original Lara was much more honest than this new, "realistic" Lara.

I see no fundamental difference between one that men only play because they want to ogle her tits and one men only want to play because they feel the need to take care of the poor little girl. Both models of femininity are equally sexist in my opinion.

I play Tomb Raider for exactly the same reasons as you. I like her attitude, I like that she can take care of herself, I enjoy her focused and determined personality and I find that her looks offer a refreshingly interesting counterpoint to a character who would normally represented in the ways this new game is unfortunately exploring. I do not ogle, I do not want to 'take care of'. And I am male. But I'm totally with you in condemning the new game's approach.

Didn't mean to cause any offence, just positing that theory from the perspective of the developers and what they clearly intended for both old and new Lara.

 

[Loonyyy]

Changing a character from pandering eye candy with no character to a reasonable representation with a character arc is a bad thing?

It's not sexist to remove the overly large breasts. It's not dehumanising anyone.
1) It's closer to the mean, so if we want to talk about dehumanising people (An unsubstantiated bit of nonsense), we're now dehumanising fewer people. But more to the point, the hypersexualisation represents her as a character made for the male audience. She's not there to be relatable, her appearance reflects that. She's a shallow depiction of fantasy.

2) Making the character vulnerable is a simple way to establish a character arc. It makes a simple story, we've seen it millions of times, it's the basis of every sports movie, and a good part of superhero sequels and comics. A character must overcome an insurmountable obstacle which they aren't first a match for by evolving both in skill and personality. Cliche'd and simple? Yes. Sexist? Hardly.

In fact, there even are some other cases of similar character situations. The first that comes to mind is the opening scenes of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. It depicts a younger, less competent protagonist, and hence demonstrates an element of growth. We didn't call that sexist just because Indy was less capable of beating the bad guys.

The original Lara wasn't relatable-she faced down danger without the bat of an eye (More consequence of innadequate technology and writing than anything else I expect), and as a result, the game held little tension. You weren't concerned about the character. This wasn't the way you'd react to sharks and tigers and people trying to shoot you. They were obstacles, simple, gamey obstacles. Not that this is a bad thing, I personally have no problem with games that are self-admittedly gamey, but this always hurts characterisation.

The new Lara is intended to be relatable to the player by giving an impression of how a person might actually react to these situations, and they're trying to demonstrate this by making the player develop over time. It's a pretty simple concept to be honest, having likeable or relatable characters put in danger is a simple and cheap way to raise tension, but it works well enough.

I don't know how anyone can conclude that not being an unstoppable robot person with massive tits, to become someone who isn't as competent (Though, as she assumedly overcomes her obstacles, calling her a weak caricature in the damsel in distress vein isn't really appropriate), and has actual emotions and a character arc, could possibly be seen as sexist, unless someone was trying to be offended, or, more likely, trying to justify the previous incarnation of Lara with a bit of smoke and mirrors, and saying that you want to objectify and dehumanise women for "Feminist" reasons.

 

[cynicalandbored]

A lot of people seem to misunserstand the problem here. It's not reducing the size of her funbags that's the problem. It's that Rosenburg said that the player isn't supposed to identify with Lara, he's supposed to "take care of her", which is basically saying that weak defenseless women need to be protected by men (because ONLY men play videogames, amirite?) and can't take care of themselves. That's the offensive part. If the game is designed for the player to pity Lara and "help" her through her journey instead of identifying with her and being Lara Croft and living her life, then Crystal Dynamics can go fuck themselves.

Thank you for being one of the few who's actually seeing the point. I know I didn't put it well in my original post, but I was pretty angry initially. This sums up exactly what I took issue with.

 

[Vault101]

I wonder what will happen when it gets to the rape scene? Will we have a quick time event to escape or actual controlled action? If so i'm going to put the controller down at that point sit back and drink a cold beer and watch the fun.

what rape scene? I think people are seriously blowing that out of proportion

and...seriosly..no

 

[Khanht Cope]

You know, I've been supportive of this feminism in games thing for a while now; because I truly have been interested in seeing improved and more attentive portrayals of female characters in games; and seeing them get out of the shallow, trashy rut they've been stuck in.

I respected the point of view in feminist interpretations of the Hitman trailer; played devil's advocate against the angry/passive-aggressive apologists; agreed the fetishization was needless and probably not in good taste, on balance. Though ultimately agreed the 'controversy' had gotten out of hand; in that I couldn't see how you can pitch "latex assassin nuns with heavy make-up and rocket launchers" in a boardroom with a straight face; or at least without a sense of satire or a "lets just ignore logic and have some crazy fun with this" approach.

That's because I'm interested in pluralism.

I've mentioned a couple of times in threads already some of my apprehensions with tone and characterization from the apparent direction from the Tomb Raider trailer. I'm raising this concern because I want the project to succeed and for this characterization of Lara to be good. I'm also prepared to consider and understand what the creators are actually trying to put across; and use criticism for informing and constructive discussion.

But this thread. Some of the posts here...

1) The developers have been and will be working their asses off for this project.
2) I am quite certain they've been putting a lot of thought into how to make Lara a better player character that will gel better with players. Intent is important.

It is perfectly feasible to interpret the comment about "protecting her" as an indication of their considerations for crafting a player experience and how they might use that dynamic (the concept of having the character separate from the player and having their own distinct personality as opposed to a blank one that the player would project themself into) to affect and play around with the audience; rather than seeing it as a misogynist comment about reducing her to pander to male players.

Yes, we know rape is often used as a plot device in exploitation flicks and comic book heroines; we know in these cases it is often handled poorly. First of all, this should be seen as an 'attempted rape' that doesn't even get close; and I think their idea for this was to have it as her 'snapping point'. Where she's at a situation in which she absolutely can't be hesitant any longer. It's all or nothing. "I have to start fighting my way out!".

To me, this would be acceptable. Even if they didn't manage a great job with the scene. And it's only the ensuing kill that has any weight to be a lasting trauma.

But a lot of the posters in this thread are apparently disinterested in raising gender political concerns constructively for discussion. This is just kicking over a table and making a great big angry stink.

Thanks to the internet firestorm kicked up by Kotaku's inflammatory coverage, we may never see what the original plan for this might have been. The success of this developement effort, and the careers of those involved may have been damaged; and who knows what effect both this and the Hitman incident will have on the psyche of studios and publishers now.

As NinjaDeath Slap suggested earlier; back to white mid-thirties males it is. This medium's audience is making it clear that it is not mature enough to handle diversity. In this case, not because of homophobic 12 year olds on X Box Live, but because of over-zealous feminists waiting for something to come along and enrage them.

Fuck this thread!

 

[LiquidGrape]

This is fucking ridiculous. People defending old Lara Croft despite her beeing designed as wanking-material, and blames the new one for beeing "sexist", just because Lara eperiences attempted rape for five seconds.

Let me ask you, if Captain big-bad psycopath captures an early-20-something attractive woman, what do you think he was going to do with her? Force her to smell rotten eggs? And no, she isn't getting raped, she wasn't even barely close. She fights him off and kills him, isn't that a great step really, for female recognition?

This actually sounds like a quite female power fantasy story, a young but attractive (yes attractive, not oogley eye-candym like the previous incarnations) smart girl get's captured by a big bad ugly man who tries to rape her, but her, beeing an awesome female who can stand up for herself, kills the evil big bad man before he can even get close to raping her.

If that isn't a female power fantasy, please tell me what is.

Exploiting the threat of rape for cheap dramatic purposes isn't empowering. It only serves to perpetuate the notion that no matter how strong or badass a female character might be, she can never escape or hope to transcend sexual victimisation.
I'm not saying rape isn't a subject which can warrant attention in media, but I absolutely fail to see what purpose it can possibly serve in a piece of schlock entertainment such as Tomb Raider.

Judging by the developer's comments, the game is going to suggest she is a "better" character for having suffered through these ordeals.
Methinks the developer doesn't quite realise how rape culture works.
To casually invoke this kind of imagery when so many women are conditioned to live in fear of assault, yeah, I'm going to take issue with that.

Oh, and as for the original Lara; you do realise that the only people who would claim she was nothing but "wanking-material" were the same people who, well, probably only thought of her as "wanking-material"?
A lot of people thought of her, and think of her to this day, as a role-model and inspiration. I realise some might think that laughable, but consider that she was probably the first recognisable female action icon in gaming, and an unashamed badass to boot.

Lara is one of those very rare examples of sexualisation which didn't serve as a detriment to her character. It was never, at least not in any game I played, utilised to reduce her to a passive object.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'll grant you that Lara was never perhaps a very substantial or profound character. But at least she used to be a reliably sovereign one.

P.S

Just to elucidate: I reserve the right to be proven absolutely wrong by the game on all counts. It's perfectly possible. But count me as a skeptic. And I do not believe that making ones reservations heard should be conflated with "whining" the way some people in this thread have.

D.S

 

[someonehairy-ish]

This wilting violet of a girl has to be subjected to more hideous torture and brutality than any of us are ever likely to experience. The implication of this is that the only way for a woman to develop an attitude and be able to look after herself is for her to undergo unspeakable hardship.

No it isn't. If anything, the implication is that humans generally have to go through something horrible to become a badass. How many films and games have you seen where the male protagonist goes through training from hell to become who they are? Historical badasses like the Spartans trained for years through utterly brutal conditions. Yet suddenly because the trope is applied to a woman, its generalising women?
People are toughened by harsh experiences. 'What doesn't kill you makes you stronger,' and all that. So it puts a female character on even footing with male ones.

And of course to have the big male ego of the gamer caring for her at every step. The fact that this hardship has to be rape as opposed to anything else is truly despicable.

But the gamer is playing as Lara. So the gamer will be helpless. That's not something designed to stroke an ego, its something designed to evoke sympathy for the character. Also, why is rape specifically so despicable when murder and every other vile activity in the book gets used in games already? Its a bold move on the developers part and if they manage to do it well and not just for the shock value; it has the potential to provide an insight into Lara's character that we've never had so far.
Also, it may be rape or simply attempted rape. If it is the latter, then both genders get that powerful feeling of 'I just stopped someone being raped, I'm awesome. If its the former, both genders get the crushing feeling of 'someone I care about/someone I'm supposed to protect has been hurt horribly and I can't do anything about it.' It's the same psychological feeling you get when the guy gets raped in Shawshank Redemption. You want to help, and can't.

Why couldn't we have a Lara we could try to identify with? I see no fundamental difference between one that men only play because they want to ogle her tits and one men only want to play because they feel the need to take care of the poor little girl. Both models of femininity are equally sexist in my opinion. And rape, seriously?

It's a male power fantasy to go round saving women from evil guys and play the part of a flawless hero. It is not a male power fantasy for that to happen and you be powerless to stop it.

Am I just overreacting? Or is it a valid point? What do you all think?

I don't think you're overreacting. I just think you're misinterpreting the reasons behind the designer's decisions. From what I've seen, this new game will NOT be a male power fantasy, nor a male sexual fantasy. By the end of the game, when Lara is badass, it will be just as much of a power fantasy for both genders.
However, I'm saying all of this with the assumption that the writing will be good and the characterisation will be realistic. There's always the possibility that it won't be any good and we'll end up with a sexist piece of shite game. I choose to be optimistic.
Its unfair to demonise the developer because our interpretation of their decisions is excessively negative. Wait until we see the game properly before making these kinds of assertions.

 

[tzimize]

The sexes are worth the same, but they are not equal. There is a difference.

Don't you mean that the sexes are equal, but not the same? That's probably more correct.

For instance, 3+5 is not the same as 9-1, but 3+5 = 9-1.

Yes, I probably do. English is not my main language. Fortunately most people have brains and some even use them from time to time, so I'm confident that my opinion was clear enough :>

 

[LiquidGrape]

Alright then, tell me what is empowering? Being strong enough to survive one of the most horrible things being done to you? Naaaah!

No, she's a better character for, you know, actually being a character? I don't know about you, but all real people have flaws, we all have something to make us imperfect (except Bono, I guess). A dramatic story needs obstacles for the hero/heroine to overcome, because if there's no obstacles, well, there's no real story. There's no stakes in whatever quest the protagonist is currently doing. The harder the obstacles, the more we like and sympathise with the protagonist for overcoming them.

Lara used to overcome plenty of obstacles. They just weren't crassly exploitative. [http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/masterofaeons/lara.png]
There's plenty of material to draw from in constructing an origin story. I merely take issue with the particular direction the developer seems to have taken.

Also, Bono is an annoying git. So he's hardly imperfect.

This is basic storytelling 101, and besides, this game takes a more sound and realistic approach to, well, adventuring. How realistic would it have been if a twenty-something college student on her first adventure would be incredibly badass and didn't fear anything? Exactly, not at all. Lara is here treated like a normal character, and normal people actually are, you know, quite scared when they're close to death.

I might not have made that very apparent in my post, and I will concede that, but I never meant to suggest that struggle is bad. My issue was that particular use of such sexually violent and triggering imagery. Assault is not an empowering experience. It's a conditioned fear a lot of people deal with on a daily basis. This Rosenberg fellow, however, seems to consider it an incidental thing and little more than a dramatic device.

Then again, it appears you are exist for admitting that sometimes, women can be scared...

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

 

[Elamdri]

I wonder what will happen when it gets to the rape scene? Will we have a quick time event to escape or actual controlled action? If so i'm going to put the controller down at that point sit back and drink a cold beer and watch the fun.

They're prepared for terrible people like you, and have said somewhere that the rape attempt is completely automated and unfailable. The sequence that follows is straight up life and death.

So then, the attempted rape is really just unnessesary and there for sensationalism then.

1st: When is a rape scene ever "Necessary?" Apart from like a documentary or a movie based heavily on a real even involving rape where the rape is an integral part of the story (Boys Don't Cry comes to mind)?

2nd: Just because a rape/attempted rape scene may be "Unnecessary" does not mean that it is only there for sensationalism.