Well I won't be buying the new Tomb Raider...
- Thread starter cynicalandbored
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My answer. Just make a game for women about a week male stripper as the main character that only wears a leather thong and everyone can STFU.
I haven't read the last ten pages, but I've seen some of the twitter hype, and all I'm thinking is that it's innapropriate for the character.
If this was Condemned 3 and to feature a female lead...maybe. Those games were pretty damned dark, and while there's no reason the woman can't be beaten to near death instead, like a guy would be, at least a threat of rape might fit into the grim themes.
As is, it's like seeing Big Bird from Sesame Street show up in the next Hostel movie. It just doesn't fit the character.
Also, I'm just a little cynical that someone at marketing said 'You know, if we bring rape into it, it'll be all over the social networks and we won't have to spend so much on advertising.'
Lara Croft's been in peril many a time, I just don't think she needs to be threatened by dicks to 'advance her character'. This is an action adventure, not a tentacle hentai game.
Of course, none of us have seen the finished item, and if it turns out to all be over a slightly pervy advance followed by a knee to the happy sack, I think the cries of 'rape in games' have been a little premature.
If this was Condemned 3 and to feature a female lead...maybe. Those games were pretty damned dark, and while there's no reason the woman can't be beaten to near death instead, like a guy would be, at least a threat of rape might fit into the grim themes.
As is, it's like seeing Big Bird from Sesame Street show up in the next Hostel movie. It just doesn't fit the character.
Also, I'm just a little cynical that someone at marketing said 'You know, if we bring rape into it, it'll be all over the social networks and we won't have to spend so much on advertising.'
Lara Croft's been in peril many a time, I just don't think she needs to be threatened by dicks to 'advance her character'. This is an action adventure, not a tentacle hentai game.
Of course, none of us have seen the finished item, and if it turns out to all be over a slightly pervy advance followed by a knee to the happy sack, I think the cries of 'rape in games' have been a little premature.
Pretty much everything this guy says, this is why so many developers take the safe route of gears of war, to avoid cries of sexism. God forbid something bad happens to a woman in a game.Jiggy said:
Most of the problem has more to do with what they're saying rather than what's actually in the game. The breast thing? Nobody would consider it sexist to have a flat-chested female character in a game; the problem is that they've said they did it specifically to have a less sexist version of Lara. I can kind of see how this could imply that busty characters are inherently sexist (which is stupid, obviously), but I'm pretty sure the problem he's talking about is how most female characters look that way, which really is a problem.
The more troubling implication is how her character arc is being handled. From what we can see, the stuff actually in the game isn't particularly sexist; normal girl has horrible stuff happen to her and becomes an awesome hero as a result. Makes sense. But in interviews, they've specifically said that they're taking that route because she's female. They say that players can't connect to a female hero, so they try to make you care for her instead. Why is that? Because players can only connect with characters of the same gender? And all the players are male?
The more troubling implication is how her character arc is being handled. From what we can see, the stuff actually in the game isn't particularly sexist; normal girl has horrible stuff happen to her and becomes an awesome hero as a result. Makes sense. But in interviews, they've specifically said that they're taking that route because she's female. They say that players can't connect to a female hero, so they try to make you care for her instead. Why is that? Because players can only connect with characters of the same gender? And all the players are male?
The only thing that I found unappealing about the article was the portion that the kidnappers would be attempting rape.
Not the sort of thing I want to bump into in a video game. Never played a boob raider title previously, and won't be playing this one.
However, the creators later categorically deny that the attempt of rape is present in the game.
http://kotaku.com/5918193/tomb-raider-creators-are-no-longer-referring-to-games-attempted-rape-scene-as-an-attempted-rape-scene
Not the sort of thing I want to bump into in a video game. Never played a boob raider title previously, and won't be playing this one.
However, the creators later categorically deny that the attempt of rape is present in the game.
http://kotaku.com/5918193/tomb-raider-creators-are-no-longer-referring-to-games-attempted-rape-scene-as-an-attempted-rape-scene
How many of you went and saw the new James Bond movies and didn't say to yourself, "No, never again. I don't trust these people after they portrayed James Bond naked, bound to a chair, and tortured. NEVER AGAIN!"
You can argue your sentiment all you'd like, but it all really comes down to the fact that this has happened before. It's just that it's a woman that gets people up in flames and torches. That argument is invalid and shallow, nothing more then unnecessary white-knighting to me.
You can argue your sentiment all you'd like, but it all really comes down to the fact that this has happened before. It's just that it's a woman that gets people up in flames and torches. That argument is invalid and shallow, nothing more then unnecessary white-knighting to me.
I can't for the life of me decipher your argument, I can only assume that it is because you are for more intelligent and my small mind can't handle it so I shall buy the game 'cause clearly whatever you're assuming isn't true for everyone and I'll like to play this game as the weak pathetic person I am. I don't even know what I am saying blargh blarhg blarhg grrrrrr floop.
You mean feminists don't all agree on everything? A large group has a variety of different opinions on the same subjects? You're right, that's ridiculous! Feminists need to make sure no other feminists have expressed contradictory opinions before expressing their own, so that non-feminists don't get confused by the outlandish concept of people with similar overall beliefs having different opinions on specific issues. Because logic.Rocklobster99 said:
This is all I'm getting from this thread.
This. A million times this. If you wanna explore dark and edgy character developments thats awesome. Sail the sea less travelled. Explore ever facet of the human experience. Explore it deep and truthfully and dont bullshit me with fake "niceness". However. If youre going to seriously embark on a deep truthfull look at the lowest depths (or most taboo) of the human experience for the love of FUCK take yourself seriously.LastGreatBlasphemer said:
How am i meant to see your voyage as sincere when you advertise with with a cheap flashing neon sign that says "LOOK AT ME IM DOING SOMETHING DEEP: RAPE, GAYS, ABORTION, SCARY THINGS. IM EGDY NOW!" Its pathetic and totally undermines your seemingly mature look at real life situations.
Developers. Your themes are mature. The way you handle them by spotlighting and ADVERTISING for rape is pathetic and immature. Your have an immature game. End of story. A mature theme is presented, explored and discussed maturely. You need both. Not just the mature theme. For example a movie with a dark twist, lets say watchmen, where one of the characters
forgives and has the child of a man who once sexually assaulted her
Its gritty. Its dark. Its fucking weird and we shudder at the thought but the idea is explored. This can happen. Look how interesting and perverse our own minds can be when given a huge torrent of conflicting emotion. The comic/movie DIDNT advertise USING this. Because if it becomes a gag youre not taking it seriously. And neither am i.
The point of the near rape in that scene was lauras coming out her redemption from powerless and afraid to a survivor with heightened instincts.
http://www.destructoid.com/when-gamer-guilt-goes-awry-why-i-still-love-tomb-raider-229373.phtml
This interview here shows how on a whole the debate is as big as it is because of people jumping on the hate waggon for no reason.
also that quote was out of context those people care about this product and care about how lauras represented when you go from."laura is sexist her boobs are big" to "laura isnt duel wielding and killing dinosaurs the game is sexist" Then you can understand why making good characters in stories is problematic when you have no basis for "what that is".
http://www.destructoid.com/when-gamer-guilt-goes-awry-why-i-still-love-tomb-raider-229373.phtml
This interview here shows how on a whole the debate is as big as it is because of people jumping on the hate waggon for no reason.
also that quote was out of context those people care about this product and care about how lauras represented when you go from."laura is sexist her boobs are big" to "laura isnt duel wielding and killing dinosaurs the game is sexist" Then you can understand why making good characters in stories is problematic when you have no basis for "what that is".
I think everyones reaction to the rape scandal is more disgusting. A vulnerable character really shouldn't be toted triumphantly as one, it's a little pathetic - are we that desperate for something new? If they're using rape to try and make us want to cuddle Lara and tell her it's going to be okay... well why are they telling us that? *SPOILER*cynicalandbored said:
If David Cage told us "You're going to have to chop off Ethan's finger, this will make you love the character more", we would have raised our eyebrows at it. But we didn't, at least I didn't see it coming, and the mutilation shook me to my core.
Forget that the franchise's developers (or that one developer) may, for a few seconds there, have been using rape as a way to get us to better love the character (??), what's equally stupid is their reaction when they came to their senses, blushing and sidestepping everything as if they'd said a naughty word. They acted like children about it.
Well, I guess that is all true. They do say Lara is more vulnerable here, but I think they mean it because she's young and inexperienced. They say we will have the need to protect her, but that's also true of every game out there. I mean, even when you play Mario, you kinda feel the need to protect him because he is you. If he dies, it's game over for you.
What sucks is that the fact that Lara is also a girl projects vulnerability because, you know, girls are weak (SARCASM IMPLIED). And it sucks that they tried to play that card, really. And I also hate the fact that they did decide to change her breast size. Hey, for all we know, it was just a happy coincidence that Lara had big boobs AND she kicked ass. Just look at Tifa! Square knew that was her thing, for better or worse, and left her bewbs alone for the movie. It was already her trait. So reducing her breast size is like saying "HEY! I'm still not all grown up, if you know what I mean!". That, too, was a horrible card to play.
What sucks is that the fact that Lara is also a girl projects vulnerability because, you know, girls are weak (SARCASM IMPLIED). And it sucks that they tried to play that card, really. And I also hate the fact that they did decide to change her breast size. Hey, for all we know, it was just a happy coincidence that Lara had big boobs AND she kicked ass. Just look at Tifa! Square knew that was her thing, for better or worse, and left her bewbs alone for the movie. It was already her trait. So reducing her breast size is like saying "HEY! I'm still not all grown up, if you know what I mean!". That, too, was a horrible card to play.
Yes, yes you are overreacting. Also, taking a lot of it out of context.
Games like Half-Life and Doom you project yourself into the character. Third person games like this, you stop the person on-screen (that you're controlling) from falling over. Like in Mario, or Zelda. There is no "protect the helpless female" if you're under attack (in any game) and do nothing, you lose. This is something you do with all game characters.
And what's this about 'sending a message.' It's a work of fiction -- Fantasy land. There doesn't have to be some moral of the story, some underlying message to the viewer, or profound implication for society. You certainly don't see that sort of thing in every book or movie. Why would you want every game/book/tv show/movie to have this? What I would want is characters to relate to, and a good story being told, with challenging gameplay.
Games like Half-Life and Doom you project yourself into the character. Third person games like this, you stop the person on-screen (that you're controlling) from falling over. Like in Mario, or Zelda. There is no "protect the helpless female" if you're under attack (in any game) and do nothing, you lose. This is something you do with all game characters.
And what's this about 'sending a message.' It's a work of fiction -- Fantasy land. There doesn't have to be some moral of the story, some underlying message to the viewer, or profound implication for society. You certainly don't see that sort of thing in every book or movie. Why would you want every game/book/tv show/movie to have this? What I would want is characters to relate to, and a good story being told, with challenging gameplay.