Well, Retake Mass Effect 3 is pretty much over. What have we learned from this experience?

[42]

Ok people, in any of the reviews that you have read, did anyone of them mention at any point the ending?

 

[renegade7]

Plan your stories out before hand. It honestly felt like that was something they half-assed because they ran out of time. With a multi billion dollar company like EA, that sort of thing should absolutely NOT be happening.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I am under the impression the Hold the Line folks are still in this for the long haul, since it sounds like this was just a PR move. The DLC is likely to be rushed, patch to the problem that in some ways, is kind of a slap in the face. It also makes it so if they continue to say anything about it to Bioware after, they look even more entitled than before since Bioware gave them the dlc that they "wanted".
I believe many will simply move on from here to boycott future Bioware products instead, I believe that was what was mentioned on the BSN.
Anyway, I didn't learn anything I didn't already know. I was sorta happy to see gamers come together over something. I wish all gamers would do that to publishers now, and basically boycott all video games until the industry changes for the better, but that is a fantasy.

 

[Something Amyss]

2. Never, ever create trilogies, or a series with a pre-determined endpoint. Ever.

3. If the ending is not what people expect, people will rebel.

5. Fandoms are not loyal to the dev, they are loyal to the property.

8. No matter what you do, if you anger fans, you are pretty much screwed. Even if you try to offer them concessions, there will still be a contingent of people who say that it is not good enough, and you can never hope to appease those people.

9. Devs should not take risks with properties with an established fan-base, lest they encounter enormous amounts of backlash.

EDIT: 10. Ending are the most important thing in any franchise to the fans. Don't screw them up.

I'm honestly not sure if you're serious here. If you are, you're taking away the wrong information.

2. That's why all those other franchises have failed.

If you look at all the games that aren't Mass Effect that have done trilogies, you might notice a pattern.

3. True, but not automatically on any serious level. See 2.

5. Fandoms probably should be loyal to the property, that's why they're fandoms. However, this is not universal, either.

8. See any other game but Mass Effect 3. Again, see 2.

9. Are you kidding? Bioware already did that once with Mass Effect. It's been done numerous ties.

10. It's not just the ending, and for most games this isn't an issue. I could say "see 2," but that doesn't cover it completely. The fact is, the culmination of an experience that's pushing towards and promising something specific in a seriously anticipated climax is...Well, important, even if it's not about the ending itself.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I learned that there are a great many gamers that need to go die in a fire.

EDIT: Or at the very least get a 2X4 (as in a plank of wood) to the upside of the head.

 

[Agayek]

Yep, they screwed up the ending to a great game and you are prepared to write them off because of that. "level of tolerance", eh?

If he's referring to what I think he is, it's less because they screwed up the ending to a great game, and more that they've continually screwed up for their last 3 major releases.

DA2 was a mess, with broken mechanics and an incredibly poor method of storytelling. They could have done wonders with it, but it was released 1-1.5 years too early, and was just pathetic.

The Old Republic is incredibly meh. The only thing it does well is the quest storylines. Everything else about it is, at best, generic, and at worst simply broken. This one could be forgiven, as it's their first MMO and EA has a history of shitting all over MMOs, but when combined with the results of DA2 and the problems with ME3, it falls apart very quickly.

ME3 is definitely a solid game. The gameplay is best of the series so far, but there's a number of issues with the story, not least of which is the shittacular ending. Most of it is pretty solid, but large portions of it are either stupid or nonsensical.

All three games together make it pretty clear that Bioware is no longer operating at the standard they used to. It's disappointing in a variety of ways, as they were among my favorite developers in business. It's just become just another notch in EA's belt.

 

[SajuukKhar]

If he's referring to what I think he is, it's less because they screwed up the ending to a great game, and more that they've continually screwed up for their last 3 major releases.

DA2 was a mess, with broken mechanics and an incredibly poor method of storytelling. They could have done wonders with it, but it was released 1-1.5 years too early, and was just pathetic.

The Old Republic is incredibly meh. The only thing it does well is the quest storylines. Everything else about it is, at best, generic, and at worst simply broken. This one could be forgiven, as it's their first MMO and EA has a history of shitting all over MMOs, but when combined with the results of DA2 and the problems with ME3, it falls apart very quickly.

ME3 is definitely a solid game. The gameplay is best of the series so far, but there's a number of issues with the story, not least of which is the shittacular ending. Most of it is pretty solid, but large portions of it are either stupid or nonsensical.

All three games together make it pretty clear that Bioware is no longer operating at the standard they used to. It's disappointing in a variety of ways, as they were among my favorite developers in business. It's just become just another notch in EA's belt.

Having replayed their older games such as NWN1 and B2 I would need more them my two hands to count the number of times each game had part of shitty writing.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

please explain how living up to the marketing campaign would have changed the 90% of mass effect 3 that nearly everyone enjoyed. what everyone CONSTANTLY points out, is the lack of depth to the ending, that they so very much pointed towards before the game was released, and said they would not do EXACTLY what they did do. (don't care to look up all the damn quotes, they have been mentioned in hundreds of threads already.)

Well, everyone seems to have forgotten trailers like this:
or this:

In addition to the numerous other marketing things focusing on the action and explosions over the story and characters. I remember many people complaining about how "action-focused" the marketing for the game was before the game came out, and how it gave them the idea that Bioware was "dumbing it down for the casuals" and making big, dumb shooter. I, for one, am glad we did not get that game. :/

in many ways the game WAS dumbed down. check out the dialogue from me1 and me2, and then compare that to the length/depth of the dialogue in me3. while i think it was decently handled, it was nowhere NEAR the same...they definitely took a different approach to it, and i'm not saying the game was bad, but there was some definite stream lining and it was definitely more shooter based with "perks" than actual "rpg"

once again, it worked, and just fine,i had no complains on that front, more than enough to please most people and keep the flow of the game going great. but still, compare the rpg/story elements of me1 with me3, you'll notice a difference, especially in the progression department.

 

[Agayek]

Having replayed their older games such as NWN1 and B2 I would need more them y two hands to count the number of times each game had part of shitty writing.

There's always places where the writing doesn't hold up as well, but there isn't a single bad moment in BG2 on the same scale as a) Udina automatically being the human councilor regardless of decisions in ME1 (that one really made me go wtf), b) an incompetent terrorist organization somehow having an armed force large enough to fight a standing battle against the most well-protected institution in the galaxy, or c) anything the Catalyst says.

 

[Ticonderoga117]

I was worried that Bioware would actually listen to the most obnoxious and idiotic side of the fandom i.e. the guys that literally wanted the original ending completely scrapped and replaced for a totally new one.

Obnoxious idiot #552703 reporting for duty.

I would like to know why exactly someone is obnoxious and idiotic for wanting a defective piece of work to be replaced.

*Stands right behind Zhukov* Ditto. I can't help it if I get uppity when something I was thoroughly enjoying for 29 hours and 50 minutes suddenly goes WAY off into left field and loses all pretense of what it was supposed to be and does it horribly.

Seriously, while I have read tons of books that have "dark" endings, or unhappy endings, or really REALLY drove home some philosophical message that I thought was BS, at least they are consistent!

 

[SajuukKhar]

There's always places where the writing doesn't hold up as well, but there isn't a single bad moment in BG2 on the same scale as a) Udina automatically being the human councilor regardless of decisions in ME1 (that one really made me go wtf), b) an incompetent terrorist organization somehow having an armed force large enough to fight a standing battle against the most well-protected institution in the galaxy, or c) anything the Catalyst says.

Anderson quit, he made it clear in Me2 he didn't really like the job, and the books already told everyone udina would be councilor, I don't see how that was a surprise, it was known well in advance.

It should have been handled better yeah, but it isn't that illogical or hard to believe.
.
.
How is a terrorist origination founded by some of the richest humans in the galaxy having a small, but well trained, fighting force not understandable? small better trained fighting forces can easily out do larger and less well trained military.
.
.
Also the math behind what the Catalyst says actually does validate him, it was handled poorly but technically he isn't wrong.

 

[Agayek]

Anderson quit, he made it clear in Me2 he didn't really like the job, and the books already told everyone udina would be councilor, I don't see how that was a surprise, it was known well in advance.

It should have been handled better yeah, but it isn't that illogical or hard to believe.

1) Requiring someone to read supplementary material to understand what's going on is poor storytelling.

2) They made no mention of the change within the bounds of the game at all. It was about as jarring as Matheson suddenly appearing in HL2:Ep2.

All they'd have had to do is insert an off-hand by Udina about how Anderson had retired and it would have been fine. Not good, but decent. The only reason Udina got the job was to shoe-horn in the Cerberus attack. What they should have done is alter that level depending on who was chosen as councilor instead of railroading it in, but if they'd at least acknowledged the change it would have been acceptable.

How is a terrorist origination founded by some of the richest humans in the galaxy having a small, but well trained, fighting force not understandable?

That's just it, Cerberus does not have a small but well trained fighting force. They have an army on par with any of the other Citadel races. If you can't see the narrative holes inherent in that, I'm not sure what to say. A force that size attracts attention, and anonymity is the only reason terrorist organizations manage to survive.

If Cerberus had been presented as having carved out an empire of sorts in the Terminus systems, it would be far more believable for them to have the forces they do. But they're continually cast as a terrorist organization actively sabotaging alien efforts. The level of infrastructure to support just the forces Shepard sees on the Citadel would be more than enough for any competent government to find them and put them down.

Also the math behind what the Catalyst says actually does validate him, it was handled poorly but technically he isn't wrong.

No, it really doesn't. And I'm not solely talking about the ridiculous "I will kill you with my robots so you don't build robots that kill you" logic. The entire conversation with the Catalyst is thematically, tonally, canonically(for lack of a better term) and logically broken. There is nothing in that conversation that reaches an objectively "decent" level of storytelling. It fails to meet even the most basic of criteria of every literary theory I've ever seen.

 

[Seanfall]

I was worried that Bioware would actually listen to the most obnoxious and idiotic side of the fandom i.e. the guys that literally wanted the original ending completely scrapped and replaced for a totally new one.

Obnoxious idiot #552703 reporting for duty.

I would like to know why exactly someone is obnoxious and idiotic for wanting a defective piece of work to be replaced.

not gonna lie, laughed out loud at this. and very true.


just like any major recall on any item, when it is OBJECTIVELY shit, you fix that shit. end of story.

i'm gonna beat someone over the head with a giraffe if i see someone pull the artistic integrity crap one more time.

I agree with you...but...I laughed out loud at the Giraffe part. I feel the same way man...and I just the image of the guys from Extra Credits and Penny Arcade getting beaten with a Giraffe. Yes they need to scrap the ending and make a new one. Their is still...a very slim chance that the IT is true....I've given up on it but others haven't.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I was worried that Bioware would actually listen to the most obnoxious and idiotic side of the fandom i.e. the guys that literally wanted the original ending completely scrapped and replaced for a totally new one.

Obnoxious idiot #552703 reporting for duty.

I would like to know why exactly someone is obnoxious and idiotic for wanting a defective piece of work to be replaced.

not gonna lie, laughed out loud at this. and very true.


just like any major recall on any item, when it is OBJECTIVELY shit, you fix that shit. end of story.

i'm gonna beat someone over the head with a giraffe if i see someone pull the artistic integrity crap one more time.

I agree with you...but...I laughed out loud at the Giraffe part. I feel the same way man...and I just the image of the guys from Extra Credits and Penny Arcade getting beaten with a Giraffe. Yes they need to scrap the ending and make a new one. Their is still...a very slim chance that the IT is true....I've given up on it but others haven't.

hah glad you could enjoy that, because if i could lift a giraffe in a way, and not actually hurt the animal, i would do just that.

honestly, check out any other industry, those companies DON'T get away with crap like this, why should publishers like EA? not to mention they aren't "fixing" it, they are keeping it the same, just applying some cheap elmers glue to the situation, nothing actually long lasting.

 

[Seanfall]

I was worried that Bioware would actually listen to the most obnoxious and idiotic side of the fandom i.e. the guys that literally wanted the original ending completely scrapped and replaced for a totally new one.

Obnoxious idiot #552703 reporting for duty.

I would like to know why exactly someone is obnoxious and idiotic for wanting a defective piece of work to be replaced.

*Stands right behind Zhukov* Ditto. I can't help it if I get uppity when something I was thoroughly enjoying for 29 hours and 50 minutes suddenly goes WAY off into left field and loses all pretense of what it was supposed to be and does it horribly.

Seriously, while I have read tons of books that have "dark" endings, or unhappy endings, or really REALLY drove home some philosophical message that I thought was BS, at least they are consistent!

*gets in line* And I'm...#10...wow I've been an obnoxious idiot most of my life then. I at least want an option for a happy ending.

 

[Conza]

With the recent announcement of Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut, it seems to me that the Retake ME3 movement is pretty much over. *MASSIVE SNIP*

Hang on a second, they were still posting on facebook about an hour ago... So until we see this DLC addition as a success, how can we be sure its over?

A. It's exactly/mostly what 90-50% of the fans wanted with an ending, we feel satisfied, even if still slightly annoyed the full game took this long to come out, and that's that or;

B. It's not what hardly anyone wanted, ME3 still hasn't ended properly, and now all we know is that Bioware/EA won't be doing anything else, so we have to start all over again.

So, how can we say its over til we know what the DLC is?

1: Many gamers have a deep seated distrust, and perhaps even hate, of gaming journalism.
2. Never, ever create trilogies, or a series with a pre-determined endpoint. Ever.
3. If the ending is not what people expect, people will rebel.
4. When gaming journalists are pushed, they can be just as nasty as any troll.
5. Fandoms are not loyal to the dev, they are loyal to the property.
6. To many people, video games are SERIOUS BUSINESS.
7. When fans work together for a common goal, they can get a lot of stuff done.
8. No matter what you do, if you anger fans, you are pretty much screwed. Even if you try to offer them concessions, there will still be a contingent of people who say that it is not good enough, and you can never hope to appease those people.
9. Devs should not take risks with properties with an established fan-base, lest they encounter enormous amounts of backlash.
EDIT: 10. Ending are the most important thing in any franchise to the fans. Don't screw them up.

1. I know I do, it's completely corrupted industry.
2. I would disagree - look at Star Wars (IV,V,VI for the kidzez), that was fantastic
3. I'm not sure that's really the problem here though is it? I would've happily been surprised, if it just did something more than, the crap we were given frankly.
4. People are people
5. Which is good right?
6. Yep, again I think this is good.
7. Mmmm, yet to be seen really.
8. Again, they have our money (for now) and can laugh all the way to the bank unless we boycott their future releases til they go bust - so I think they win at the moment
9. Also, its easy to see from hindsight that the ending was complete utter balls, but when you're in a project, one guy saying 'yeah its great' can lead many others to think the same - maybe they legitimately thought this 'was' as good an ending as they could do?
10. I agree, they shouldn't, but, since they have done now, and we don't know if their 'fix' really cuts the mustard, maybe there isn't any consequence if the game is hyped enough? Oh yeah, no one will buy from then again, that's kinda wishful thinking imo.

All they'd have had to do is insert an off-hand by Udina about how Anderson had retired and it would have been fine. Not good, but decent. The only reason Udina got the job was to shoe-horn in the Cerberus attack. What they should have done is alter that level depending on who was chosen as councilor instead of railroading it in, but if they'd at least acknowledged the change it would have been acceptable.

I think it would've been easy to have it both ways.

A. Udina was chosen, so Anderson was promoted between ME2 and ME3 to Admiral, (that's prety much what we were forced with anyway).

B. Anderson is re-activated and promoted to Admiral inbtween ME2 and ME3, and Udina is 'promoted' to the counsellor instead - that is what I had to keep telling myself happened for my version of the game, even though its severly lacking in explanation.

 

[Seanfall]

I was worried that Bioware would actually listen to the most obnoxious and idiotic side of the fandom i.e. the guys that literally wanted the original ending completely scrapped and replaced for a totally new one.

Obnoxious idiot #552703 reporting for duty.

I would like to know why exactly someone is obnoxious and idiotic for wanting a defective piece of work to be replaced.

not gonna lie, laughed out loud at this. and very true.


just like any major recall on any item, when it is OBJECTIVELY shit, you fix that shit. end of story.

i'm gonna beat someone over the head with a giraffe if i see someone pull the artistic integrity crap one more time.

I agree with you...but...I laughed out loud at the Giraffe part. I feel the same way man...and I just the image of the guys from Extra Credits and Penny Arcade getting beaten with a Giraffe. Yes they need to scrap the ending and make a new one. Their is still...a very slim chance that the IT is true....I've given up on it but others haven't.

hah glad you could enjoy that, because if i could lift a giraffe in a way, and not actually hurt the animal, i would do just that.

honestly, check out any other industry, those companies DON'T get away with crap like this, why should publishers like EA? not to mention they aren't "fixing" it, they are keeping it the same, just applying some cheap elmers glue to the situation, nothing actually long lasting.

Elmers glue and then three different colors of glitter. I don't know what the double standard is. I don't get why people think we should just take it and move on. People don't stand up for anything anymore I think.

 

[Saviordd1]

What we learned is that this issue creates an ungodly amount of threads on this website.

What your personal opinion and analysis of the situation otherwise contains is opinion and speculation.

That said I also learned people not involved on one side or the other of the argument tend to see themselves in far to great a light, your not a damned prophet for not getting involved, deflate your ego guys.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I was worried that Bioware would actually listen to the most obnoxious and idiotic side of the fandom i.e. the guys that literally wanted the original ending completely scrapped and replaced for a totally new one.

Obnoxious idiot #552703 reporting for duty.

I would like to know why exactly someone is obnoxious and idiotic for wanting a defective piece of work to be replaced.

not gonna lie, laughed out loud at this. and very true.


just like any major recall on any item, when it is OBJECTIVELY shit, you fix that shit. end of story.

i'm gonna beat someone over the head with a giraffe if i see someone pull the artistic integrity crap one more time.

I agree with you...but...I laughed out loud at the Giraffe part. I feel the same way man...and I just the image of the guys from Extra Credits and Penny Arcade getting beaten with a Giraffe. Yes they need to scrap the ending and make a new one. Their is still...a very slim chance that the IT is true....I've given up on it but others haven't.

hah glad you could enjoy that, because if i could lift a giraffe in a way, and not actually hurt the animal, i would do just that.

honestly, check out any other industry, those companies DON'T get away with crap like this, why should publishers like EA? not to mention they aren't "fixing" it, they are keeping it the same, just applying some cheap elmers glue to the situation, nothing actually long lasting.

Elmers glue and then three different colors of glitter. I don't know what the double standard is. I don't get why people think we should just take it and move on. People don't stand up for anything anymore I think.

haha true. i don't think we should either, it's a product, and a third one in a series at that, i don't see the problem with yearning for consistency and objective decency. as i put in a different post, gamers DO have limits, and EA definitely stepped on a land mine with this one, after poking and prodding at us for a while now over the years...this was just that final piece that unified quite a bit of built up anger.