WH40k and Art of War

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JesterRaiin

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The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts
upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command!
The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it,
will suffer defeat:--let such a one be dismissed!

- All warfare is based on deception.
- These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand
- In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
- In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory.

And so on... Excerpts are taken from magnum opus of Sun Tzu - "The Art of War". "Art of War" is considered one of most important war treaties even by modern standards. It seems that no matter what, some things never change.

On the other hand, we have grim darkness of 41st Millenium.
Let's think... Armies capable of emerging instantly deep behind enemy lines. Means to eradicate whole planets or even solar systems. Some sides of conflict are nothing less than forces of nature attacking in swarms, not paying attention to pain and/or losses. Magic. Demons. Eye of Terror.

Is there a place for "Art of War" in the universe of WH40k ? On the field of battles - surely at least some advices should be applicable and useful. On the greater scale ? I'm not exactly sure.

What do you - generals of countless victories - think ? :)
 

Penumbran Wolf

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Hmmm...

Immovable as the mountain...

Swift as the wind...

Mysterious as the forest...

Striking like fire...

In attack one must strike as lightning from the very heavens and in defense secret oneself in the very foundation or the earth...


No, I don't see that being very popular...
 

Eclectic Dreck

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I think the problem with the application of the Art of War makes an assumption that is so generally considered to be true that to be handed a scenario where it is not is so laughable we simply ignore the obvious. In order to win a war by the means Sun Tzu describes requires several things:

1) The possibility of interrupting the enemy's means to engage in a war by strategically targeting logistics centers
2) An enemy who is willing to accept surrender
3) Possession of the means to defeat the bulk of an enemy force in open battle.

I think you'll find in 40k that none of these things apply. For example, consider the major groups in the universe:

Imperium of Man
1) Production and distribution is spread across countless thousands of worlds. The sheer size of the Imperium means that utterly disrupting their supply lines is impossible. It is possible on a smaller scale sufficient to seize a star system or even a cluster but to disrupt the supply lines as a whole means attacking thousands of the most defended worlds in the galaxy simultaneously.
2) While some elements are willing to surrender when pushed against the wall, generations of indoctrination and countless control mechanisms exist to ensure that humanity as a whole would have to be facing imminent annihilation for surrender to even exist as a concept and even then there would still be enormous parts of the imperium that would not surrender until the last round was fired and the final defenders drew their last breath. The Space Marines, for example, operate under the assumption that, at some point, it will come to that and they shall be the final champions for the very soul of mankind.
3) With over a million worlds many of which are defended by more firepower than the entire planet earth has seen in millenia of combat few enemies in the universe have the capacity to defeat the Imperium as a whole. The only thing that saves most of the enemies of man is the simple fact that it is incredibly difficult for the imperium to mobilize any significant portion of it's fighting force at a moment. But a giant of this size is not easily bled dry as noted by the simple fact that forces have been trying to do this very thing for ten thousand years.

Chaos
1) While they rely heavily on mortal avatars, the primary seat of power of chaos is all but unassailable in the warp.
2) The forces of chaos have never been successfully threatened by any force. They have, in fact, managed to kill other gods with relative ease. Since no force has ever managed to truly threaten the dark gods, what cause would they ever have to surrender?
3) If you cannot attack the dark gods and you cannot seize their means of production, the only hope to defeat them is to stamp out strong emotion and aggression - something that doesn't seem likely given the course of the last 38,000 years.

Tyranid
1) Their supply lines are your supply lines. Any victory on this front is the very definition of Pyrrhic.
2) They are without number and fear. They are incapable of surrender.
3) Again, they seem to be without number. It matters little how many are destroyed if there are always a billion ready to replace the one you just shot. All you can seemingly do is hold them back.

Ork
1) Their supply lines are your supply lines.
2) A complete lack of any central organization means getting any significant portion of them to agree on anything, especially surrendering (when all they exist to do is fight) is impossible.
3) They are spread across countless worlds and breed rapidly. The only way to defeat them entirely across the galaxy is to glass every planet in the galaxy. Even then you couldn't be sure given the number of them floating around on mobile asteroids, hiding on space hulks or stuck in the warp.

Tau
1) Their supply lines are relatively vulnerable but they are sufficiently guarded that doing significant damage would require more effort than most powerful forces could spare. Being a small fish with a very nasty bite has advantages here.
2) They might be willing to surrender given the right conditions but that implies a power was willing to invest the resources to do the job. The imperium tried and had it's nose bloodied for the effort and while the imperium has the firepower to do the job properly, strategic concerns mean it is unlikely they will muster the necessary firepower any time soon.
3) Defeating the Tau would simply require an enormous investment in firepower. There are races capable of this in theory but the reality is more complicated. The Orks wouldn't cooperate on such a large scale venture, the Eldar are too few to risk such a slaughter, the Dark Eldar generally prefer a less even fight, the Imperium is busy elsewhere, the Necrons are still few and rare and the Tyranids do not seem terribly interested.

Thus, the general conclusion I can come to is simply that the theories in the Art of war are only applicable some of the time at best and even then only in battles of a limited scope and scale. For example, the war for armageddon. The Ork hoard was occupied with the siege of a particular hive for so long that reinforcements finally arrived. This is a rather classic strategic gambit and demonstrates the purpose of a defense in depth: the defenders held until the conditions for a renewed offense were set. In this case, those conditions involved the introduction of significant reinforcements. Basically, the enemy was forced to commit to a task and once committed, their own goals would not allow them to move elsewhere. The enemy was drawn out, held in place and destroyed in depth as a result.
 

khiliani

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stuff like all warfare being based on deception is still useful when combined with the teleportation technology and the like. Although sun tzu never really took the orks into consideration, and they aren't big on things like tactics or plans or logic.
 

Trivun

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Penumbran Wolf said:
Hmmm...

Immovable as the mountain...

Swift as the wind...

Mysterious as the forest...

Striking like fire...

In attack one must strike as lightning from the very heavens and in defense secret oneself in the very foundation or the earth...


No, I don't see that being very popular...
Huh. Reminds me of the Eldar, or the Tau. Bearing in mind they're two armies that either have massive firepower and use deception to great effect (Kauyon and Mont'Ka, for the Tau, and the Webway for the Eldar) or are as swift as they come when it comes to battle. And the Eldar are pretty damn mysterious to boot...

Yeah, I think it could work :p
 

Thaluikhain

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Well, 40k is dominated by "Rule of Cool", not anything recognisable by military science.

I mean, 40k more or less is Space Marines, with so other people wandering around. Space Marines fighting in forces of up to 1,000 soldiers only, while painted bright primary colours so they can't blend in with their surroundings.

From that beginning, don't expect Sun Tzu to crop up that much.
 

Scorched_Cascade

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Sep 26, 2008
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The Space Marine equivalent of the "Art of War" is the Codex Astartes [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex_Astartes#.Tp_wOrKOfnI]

Written by an entity considered equivalent to a demigod in physique, intelligence and tactical genius (even if the sneakier marines are better ;P) it has thousands of examples of how to counter specific tactics and how to go about engaging certain foes.

It also contains Space Marine battle doctrine and rules for how their chapter should be organised.

Of course a lot of the better unrulier marines tend to ignore the codex and follow their own judgement.
 

Aurgelmir

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I don't think why not? It seems very applicable to me.

Also Blood Angles Teaming up with Necrons to fight tyranids really make me think:

"My enemies enemy is my friend"
 

MasterOfWorlds

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I don't know much about the game, video or tabletop, but I've read a bit about the Space Marines. I think that some of it would be there, but only really for the more tactically minded marines. Most of them just want to kill the enemy and don't particularly seem to care about how it gets done.
 

Halceon

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Aurgelmir said:
I don't think why not? It seems very applicable to me.

Also Blood Angles Teaming up with Necrons to fight tyranids really make me think:

"My enemies enemy is my friend"
Blood Angles? Librarian Straight, Captain 45 Degrees and Primarch Pi?

On topic: Often it seems that the races have completely no concept of strategy whatsoever. They can emerge from the warp pretty much anywhere without advance warning. How about dropping an engine on the far side of a moon orbiting a forge world, then landing a diversion fleet on the other side of the planet. While the troops are busy fending off the "invasion", drop the moon on their asses. Suddenly half the sector loses access to tech reinforcements.
 

Neverhoodian

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Aurgelmir said:
Also Blood Angles Teaming up with Necrons to fight tyranids really make me think:

"My enemies enemy is my friend"
Hmmm, can't say that was my initial reaction. It was more along the lines of this:

Seriously Matt Ward, what the hell?

Anyway, I think the Warhammer 40k universe would be more receptive to the teachings of another renowned military theorist, Carl Von Clausewitz:

-If the leader is filled with high ambition and if he pursues his aims with audacity and strength of will, he will reach them in spite of all obstacles.

-Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination.

-The more a general is accustomed to place heavy demands on his soldiers, the more he can depend on their response.

-It is even better to act quickly and err than to hesitate until the time of action is past.

-To secure peace is to prepare for war.
 

Bark00000

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the art of war is not so much a literal handbook about fighting a war. what i mean is that it is not a book of specific tactics that must be followed to the letter(the way a playbook would be in football).

the concepts in the art of war can be adapted to almost any wartime scenario.
as you strip away small specifics from it, broad concepts become more relevant.
the art of war approaches war on all levels. from the tactical, to the strategic, to the political. from the management of the entire force right down to the individual soldier.

to use an example from your post
"Armies capable of emerging instantly deep behind enemy lines. Means to eradicate whole planets or even solar systems. Some sides of conflict are nothing less than forces of nature attacking in swarms, not paying attention to pain and/or losses. Magic. Demons. Eye of Terror."

the art of war actually does apply to this.
armies capable of emerging behind enemy lines? the art of war's thoughts on intelligence gathering and positioning will allow maximum effect of such a tactic.
eradicate planets? the value of a planet must be weighted before such an option is used, both strategically as well as logistically. sun tzu has many interesting thoughts on the value of a battlefield asset.


in short, the true beauty of the art of war, and really why it still applies today (even though war has changed so much) is that it speaks of grand truths. fundamental concepts of war that will never change. two forces of will coming into conflict will always follow a pattern.
sun tzu simply identified these patterns and wrote them down
it is also why the most brilliant commanders in history often exhibit many of the same traits and trends. most of all the ability to identify weakness, exploit it, and maximize your own strength (sun tzu's overall point)
 

willsham45

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Yes and no, Warhammer 40K is played as small skirmishes, you have to assume in context your playing a small part of a much larger effort, be it an infultration, sucuring a package or defending a strong point.

It is more relivent for some conflicts like any fight vs any of the human factions including tau, eldar and orks to a point, But is less relivent in terms of nids and necrons but again it is all relitive. All the points you gave are true more or less.

- All warfare is based on deception - true...tell me something that is not.

- These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand - true try and keep as much infomation as you can away from the oponent even though they probally know what you got.

- In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns - True, Length is always relitive some tasks are shorter and others longer, but in most 40k fights need to be over fast and some theats need erradicating instantly or they get worce, nid and ork for example.

- In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory. - True depending on victory conditions, do I sit on a control point or do I take out the enermy first I think.
 

Thaluikhain

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Halceon said:
Aurgelmir said:
I don't think why not? It seems very applicable to me.

Also Blood Angles Teaming up with Necrons to fight tyranids really make me think:

"My enemies enemy is my friend"
Blood Angles? Librarian Straight, Captain 45 Degrees and Primarch Pi?
Well, it is a British company, after all.

Halceon said:
On topic: Often it seems that the races have completely no concept of strategy whatsoever. They can emerge from the warp pretty much anywhere without advance warning. How about dropping an engine on the far side of a moon orbiting a forge world, then landing a diversion fleet on the other side of the planet. While the troops are busy fending off the "invasion", drop the moon on their asses. Suddenly half the sector loses access to tech reinforcements.
Not true, you have to re-enter realspace far from the gravity of a star, at the outer reaches of a system. Moving an entire moon is no small thing, either.

But, yeah, strategy is noticeably absent from 40k.
 

kingcom

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thaluikhain said:
But, yeah, strategy is noticeably absent from 40k.
Not in the slightest, everything is extensively calculater, 30,000 years of warfare has lead to massive pieces of thought, from the well known Codex Astartes and Tactica Imperialise to less known more specific works like Ravenors works to standard issue like "The Imperial Guardsman's Uplifting Primer".
 

Thaluikhain

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kingcom said:
thaluikhain said:
But, yeah, strategy is noticeably absent from 40k.
Not in the slightest, everything is extensively calculater, 30,000 years of warfare has lead to massive pieces of thought, from the well known Codex Astartes and Tactica Imperialise to less known more specific works like Ravenors works to standard issue like "The Imperial Guardsman's Uplifting Primer".
Well, yes, there is much talk of having strategy, but that's very much an informed ability. Whenever you see a depiction of how things work, it's very much at odds with this.

It doesn't matter how wonderful the authors say their characters are, if they depict them as being rather short of the mark.
 

kingcom

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thaluikhain said:
kingcom said:
thaluikhain said:
But, yeah, strategy is noticeably absent from 40k.
Not in the slightest, everything is extensively calculater, 30,000 years of warfare has lead to massive pieces of thought, from the well known Codex Astartes and Tactica Imperialise to less known more specific works like Ravenors works to standard issue like "The Imperial Guardsman's Uplifting Primer".
Well, yes, there is much talk of having strategy, but that's very much an informed ability. Whenever you see a depiction of how things work, it's very much at odds with this.

It doesn't matter how wonderful the authors say their characters are, if they depict them as being rather short of the mark.
Often they do provide fairly sound tactical decisions, the Gaunts Ghosts are a good sign of this from the Saint using herself as a massive diversion to the entire deployment of Vervunhive. The major reason they get viewed as unsound decision making is by our standards of warfare. Casualties are unacceptable while within the imperial guard they are valued as a potential for buying time. Troop numbers are so vast if a company takes 90% casualties but manages to hold a postion, thats an overwhelming success in the grand scheme of the Crusade.
 

SouthpawFencer

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One reason that the Art of War isn't completely applicable to WH40k is that the battles in the tabletop system are designed to be FAIR. Sun Tzu generally advocated attacking only when victory was certain. A lot of his advice concerned things that took place before the armies could see each other. His ideal WH40k game would consist of his attacking a 20-point army with a 500-point army, getting the first turn, and having his army set up with all key strategic locations occupied before the other player even knew that he was being challenged and had gotten his models out of his carrying case...

Now, in the Art of War, the five things to measure in order to determine the victor in battle: the way, the weather, the terrain, leadership and discipline.

Leadership and discipline are both factors in a WH40k game, IIRC the rules correctly (full disclosure: I've never played the tabletop game). certain units will flee or go berserk under certain conditions (taking out key "Synapse" Tyranid and causing the ones around it to revert to a feral state). This could be considered a failure in Leadership and/or Discipline. I'm pretty sure that anybody fighting a Tyranid army is going to take this into account, and attempt to exploit it if an opportunity presents itself. Sun Tzu would approve.

Terrain is CERTAINLY a factor as well. Do you have adequate cover to place your heavy-hitting, but low-health sniper? Do your melee fighters have to cross open ground before being within attack range, or is there a path that they can take to shield them from long-distance fire? Will your heavy armor units have adequate room to advance, or is the terrain set up so that they'd end up in a natural bottleneck and be perfectly positioned for your enemy forces to concentrate fire on them, one at a time?