What about the queer female gamers?

[badgersprite]

The slight problem with that mathematics is that you assume lesbian gamers play in the same proportion that straight women do. Firstly, I'd wager that more women play video games than you think (it's just that you don't know that they're women). Secondly, from experience, I'd say that a disproportionately large proportion of female gamers are comprised of gay or bisexual women (ie more gay women play video games per capita than straight women). They still wouldn't be the majority of female gamers, but they'd easily make up a significant proportion of that supposed 1-in-15.

But, anyway, that doesn't matter. I think the point of the topic was that, since this issue of The Escapist was specifically geared towards gay representation in video games, there should have been more inclusion of lesbians in the articles, as opposed to just gay men. I mean, since they were already addressing articles to the gay gamer demographic, why not include the vast spectrum of gay gamers, rather than narrowing it down to that one specific group?

First of all, maybe. I can't say I really hang out with that many lesbians. I mean, all the gay people I know are into some sort of gaming and all the lesbians I know don't. 1 in 15 was a rough estimate from the people I actually knew when I played FFXI, which is basically like going back to high school only paying a monthly fee and hitting shit with weapons. Not important really, just an illustration.
Anyway, you just ran straight at a point I've been making all along and narrowly missed it. The bold bit. You're right. But that's what I've been saying all along. If you're going to say why narrow gay gamers in to male gay gamers? Then why narrow gamers into heterosexual and homo/bisexual camps in the first place? That's what I've been trying to say. I find it silly to say that gay people have different opinions on things than straight people would, especially when it comes to gaming. I mean, politics and civil rights, for sure. But gaming... how is it any different?
Meh.
Long time since I've been able to have a ranty conversation with someone on these boards which I've genuinely enjoyed by the way. Thanks for that combination of various lesbians/people who like arguing.

Hey, my pleasure. And I agree with you. I don't think we should be divided into tiny little groups, either. It's just unfortunate that, at this stage, society likes to categorise people into different groups. Personally, I think we'll be better off when we reach a point without labels. =)

 

[amrl]

Gaming is generally seen as something that mainly men take part in, not just gay men, so women aren't usually represented anyway.

Anyway, I'm bisexual, leaning towards lesbian, and I personally do not care about being represented. It's not a big deal unless you make it one.

 

[justnotcricket]

I think one of the big issues here is that lesbians = sexy. Is it sexy to do taxes together, hold hands under the table during awkward moments at Thanksgiving with the folks, flip off the guys catcalling in the movie theatre because you've got your arms around one another? Is it sexy to help each other break a fever in freezing showers when the flu has knocked you on your ass, cuddle up with cocoa and a blanket when the power gets turned off because you got laid off and couldn't pay the power bill, worry about insurance coverage and a wrecked car and whose turn it is to do the dishes? Sexuality is as much about what gets you off as it is about being in a relationship. Whatever the gender, the relationship in gaming is what should matter, because gaming is about narratives. And cheapening lesbianism by confining it to Girls-Gone-Wild lick-fests for the apparent benefit of a mostly-male audience degrades the game as well as the gamers.

Wow, that was really elegantly put, Roxilla! I take my hat off to you

Not being a lesbian myself, I guess I can't really comment on any feelings of being overlooked in that sense, but I agree it would be nice if there was an article on what it's like for gay women to be, if you will, a double minority in the gaming world. since I agree with Robert Yang's comment that it would have been dishonest for him to write about the topic from a personal perspective, I'll second (or third, or whatever we're up to now) the suggestion that the OP write her own, to tell us what it's like and remedy the apparent shortfall

 

[badgersprite]

I mean, since they were already addressing articles to the gay gamer demographic, why not include the vast spectrum of gay gamers, rather than narrowing it down to that one specific group?

Anyway, you just ran straight at a point I've been making all along and narrowly missed it. The bold bit. You're right. But that's what I've been saying all along. If you're going to say why narrow gay gamers in to male gay gamers? Then why narrow gamers into heterosexual and homo/bisexual camps in the first place? That's what I've been trying to say. I find it silly to say that gay people have different opinions on things than straight people would, especially when it comes to gaming. I mean, politics and civil rights, for sure. But gaming... how is it any different?

Hey, my pleasure. And I agree with you. I don't think we should be divided into tiny little groups, either. It's just unfortunate that, at this stage, society likes to categorise people into different groups. Personally, I think we'll be better off when we reach a point without labels. =)

Is it unfortunate though? Like Phoenix Arrow said: "If you're going to say why narrow gay gamers in to male gay gamers? Then why narrow gamers into heterosexual and homo/bisexual camps in the first place?"

In other words, why ever narrow our focus? I think

(1) it helps us understand the issues better--just like womens studies not only didn't marginalize the study of men, but actually helped it along by developing the tools through which to look at gender, narrowing focus helps one see details that might be missed at the broader level.

(2) just because two identities are equivalent *in theory* doesn't mean they are equivalent *in the world*. Culture doesn't proceed down perfectly logical paths where it makes sure to keep two sides of a biological difference in a mirror image with each other.

I know that we're not equivalent in the world. That's precisely why it is unfortunate that we're still in the 'labels' phase. Because I don't conform to conventional sexuality, I've been singled out and targetted by others in frightening and physically harmful ways. Trust me, I'm proud of who I am, but, more than anything else, I'd like to get to the stage where I'm "just another" rather than an "other".

 

[ryuutchi]

Gaming is generally seen as something that mainly men take part in, not just gay men, so women aren't usually represented anyway.

Anyway, I'm bisexual, leaning towards lesbian, and I personally do not care about being represented. It's not a big deal unless you make it one.

The thing is, I think it's a big deal the same way the lack of representation of any oppressed minority is a big deal. It alienates and marginalizes the people in that minority and beggars the people who aren't for lack of having a chance to identify with people who aren't like them. As someone said early on, it's actually sort of insulting for game designers to assume white heterosexual men can only identify with white heterosexual men.

Coming from that perspective, it's important to discuss lack of representation because rectifying the lack will enrich everyone involved.

 

[mykalwane]

Well I think it is a rather odd deal because it really isn't understood. Much like any character that isn't understood it is used as a stock to fill then character second. That is what I think is the main problem is that simply because it isn't understood. So the only proper way to do is that being gay or not isn't really a focus. Take Jade Empire which had it as simply something that happens. The characters were neat, but you didn't noticed the characters were gay till two guys or two girls kissed. So it was a surprise that happen, since when the girls did kiss(yes I know I was playing as a girl but the female girl pulled kick ass off better then the guy did and wanted to play a kick ass character for Jade Empire) it was simply something that happen. Which means they aren't really represented then. Well that might be because that is what I have found when it comes to gay people in general. They are people, odds are being gay more often then not is much like being strait. Something that just happens, cause really other then the person they would date it doesn't really matter. So that just leads to creating a character who just happen to be gay you need to do a female which I think fallows the same line. A good character who just happens to be female is all much like a good character who just happens to be male. Which I think is rare for each.

 

[Kuchinawa212]

As someone said early on, it's actually sort of insulting for game designers to assume white heterosexual men can only identify with white heterosexual men.

Coming from that perspective, it's important to discuss lack of representation because rectifying the lack will enrich everyone involved.

Well, one can say that. But you gotta remember, it's also harder grasp a character that you share nothing in common with. And gamer makers think that white heterosexual males are a majority of the target audience and everyone that isn't will just have to live with it
OF COURSE there are exceptions to that such as Metroid

 

[badgersprite]

I know that we're not equivalent in the world. That's precisely why it is unfortunate that we're still in the 'labels' phase. Because I don't conform to conventional sexuality, I've been singled out and targetted by others in frightening and physically harmful ways. Trust me, I'm proud of who I am, but, more than anything else, I'd like to get to the stage where I'm "just another" rather than an "other".

It's a big question, if we should 'get to the stage where I'm "just another" rather than an "other"'. I mean, you feel that way, but does everyone with that label?

Put it in a different context: what if we could simply eliminate gender--then not only would there be no issue with sexual orientation, there would be a lot less issues in general. However, would we be missing something if we were all the same gender and therefore sharing the same orientation?

You seem to be taking me too literally. I'm not pushing for the elimination the concepts of gender and sexuality, but more the capacity to view both of those as a varied spectrum that differs between all of us rather than a series of boxes that everyone is categorised into. And, no, I don't speak for all people who share my label, no more than you speak for people who share yours.

 

[Noamuth]

As you said:

What about the gay women?

I don't understand what you're getting at here. You want people to discuss homosexual women? ...Alright, what's to discuss? That you play games, too? So does everyone else, gay, straight, men, women, black, white, asian, hispanic, martian, those with brown hair, those with green eyes, ones who like Saving Private Ryan and ones who found Scary Movie to be funny.

Should we start making threads for them too?

True, true, true.

Honestly, who gives a shit? Whether your a guy, your a girl, your gay, your black, your a fucking four legged transvestite, I don't give a shit!

You play games, whoopdie doo!

This. A thousand times this. I'm a bi, 18 year old guy gamer, and I don't see what the fuck the issue is. We all play games, why do you need to read into it more than that?

That pretty much sums it all up.

Does it really matter who we find attractive when it comes to gaming? o.o I mean, if you really find it that hard to connect to the protagonist, or any of the characters, because they're not the same gender and/or orientation, then methinks you're over-thinking things and need to calm down.

This isn't a big deal. We're all people. So game companies aren't making a lot of gay/lesbians characters. Yeah, it'd be nice if they did, but would it really change anything? Storylines would still be terrible. One lesbian character isn't going to change that, just because she's the 'same' as me.

We don't need articles written about us, because it shouldn't matter what sexual orientation we are.

Ow. This thread has given me a headache, an' I didn't even read all of it. Well done.

 

[ryuutchi]

Well, one can say that. But you gotta remember, it's also harder grasp a character that you share nothing in common with. And gamer makers think that white heterosexual males are a majority of the target audience and everyone that isn't will just have to live with it

Well, you can't really say that and then get annoyed at people who aren't white, heterosexual males wondering where the characters they identify with are.

I mean, what makes white heterosexual males so special that everyone has to identify with them or GTFO?

 

[internetzealot1]

...I din't really understand the topic, so I'm just gonna say, "GaY wimin r awsum!!!!!"

 

[SonicKoala]

Just to point something out, this thread seems to be about recognizing queer female gamers for the sake of equality - but then again, if one looks at it logically, by specifically recognizing that gay women do in fact play video games, you're just making it more obvious that they ARE in fact a splinter group, a small and somewhat marginalized part of society. Pointing out that we are all different doesn't help to bring us together, it just emphasizes something we already know to be true - what we should instead do is recognize that we are all PEOPLE brought together by a common interest, and sexual orientation has JACK SHIT to do with video games, so it's a completely irrelevant topic to bring up anyway.

Frankly, I really don't have patience for this whole "look at me, I'm NOT a white heterosexual male who plays video games, recognize meeeeee" mentality. That's nice, you're different, good for you, but we don't have to shower you with attention and write whole articles about you just because you are different. If anything, articles should be written for the white, heterosexual male demographic of North America - isn't it that demographic that keeps video games in business (I mean, they can't depend ENTIRELY on Japan, can they)? Without them, gaming companies would go out of business. Logic wins. I have a good feeling I'm gonna offend people with this, and I can't help but finding that really funny

 

[The Youth Counselor]

There are coded LGBT characters in games too. The creator of Earthbound said that Tony, the best friend is gay and in love with Jeff. Then there is Zelda, who hangs with other female fairies, never returns Link's advances and has a secret identity as Sheik- a male character.

 

[The Youth Counselor]

I'm a bisexual woman and I don't see the point in this thread.

I don't get what the difference is between a gay gamer and a straight gamer, or a male gamer and a female gamer.

I'm just a person who likes games. What the fuck is the big deal?

This week's issue of the Escapist is all about LGBTs in gaming. And they aren't arguing so much for games being geared for certain orientations but simply representing them, just like in real life.

PS: Is your hair really that Red? Wow.

 

[The Youth Counselor]

Straight women dont love gay men.

Do you talk to women much?

Women love gay guys, they can talk to them about girly things.

Most of the straight women I know are aroused by the thought of two guys getting it on.

Here is an estimate of the interests of that number:

95% loved the movie Brokeback Mountain. Not all admit to being turned on by the love scenes.

80% profess to being turned on by Neil Patrick Harris, and wanting to jump his bones. And it's not just him, it includes all sensibly fashioned men with androgynous or pretty features.

45% admit to have watched gay porn.

Of that 45% half admit to watching it regularly.

Of the nerds in that half, 30% admit to have read slash [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_fiction] fiction [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slash+fiction]. However I only know three personally who admit to have wrote it.