What are your thoughts on suicide?

[PeterMerkin69]

...the implication being that the only thing the family experiences is a brief period of emotional loss.

Oh, absolutely not. Although I'd hazard a guess that most children of suicide victims would tell you they miss their parents more than the slightly better schools they didn't get to attend or decrements to social standing, so it didn't strike me as the primary concern.

I get that, but I still think that by focusing on "they'll collect themselves and move on", it ignores the financial reality of raising children (I've seen accidental or health-related deaths where people thought the late parent was a little selfish because they didn't have their affairs, same with people who were killed because of dangerous hobbies) - not to mention the cases where the suicidal person is a single or custodial parent. And in terms of the family ultimately collecting themselves, it's not just about mourning, it's can include moving house, changing social standing, not to mention that that kind of loss can trigger mental illnesses in the remaining family members.

I guess it depends on what you believe their children should be entitled to, or what "raising" means. They need to be fed, clothed, educated and sheltered, all of which should be provided by the state in the parents' absence. Anything beyond that is gravy.

It's definitely a drain on society but, again, that's the whole point of society.

Overall I think we're probably on the same page - I think the people who rant about the selfishness actions of single adults or older teenagers are being unfair to those people. But when that person has responsibilities for other lives, then that becomes (at least to my mind) an entirely different situation - having dependants (whether because you chose to have children or chose to take custody of minor or disabled other relatives, or because you chose to take in a parent or grandparent) means literally that - other lives are dependent on yours, so it's no longer just about you and your experience and suffering. That might be harsh, but frankly life if harsh, y'know?

Yes, I do agree about minors and even pets. Parents and grandparents, or other dependants, I'm not sure about. Saying they made a choice to take in their elders implies there was some other option for them, in which case they could simply peruse that avenue. What makes that a lifetime contract anyway?

 

[Raikas]

Oh, absolutely not. Although I'd hazard a guess that most children of suicide victims would tell you they miss their parents more than the slightly better schools they didn't get to attend or decrements to social standing, so it didn't strike me as the primary concern.

Oh, certainly. In the cases that I'm thinking about (although only one was a suicide) the people involved would definitely say that the biggest issue is missing the parent - but if you compare the older vs. younger kids, you can see that the older ones benefitted from having the higher standard of living (in terms of their own eventual careers, family lives, and mental health).

I guess it depends on what you believe their children should be entitled to, or what "raising" means. They need to be fed, clothed, educated and sheltered, all of which should be provided by the state in the parents' absence. Anything beyond that is gravy.

Sure, but I think it's fair to say that part of responsible parenting is providing your kids with the best possible environment. Sure, they'll survive with less, but wouldn't you want more for them, even if it came at a cost to yourself?

Parents and grandparents, or other dependants, I'm not sure about. Saying they made a choice to take in their elders implies there was some other option for them, in which case they could simply peruse that avenue.

Obviously this depends regionally, but in the countries I'm familiar with (FTR: Canada and Belgium) there are frequently long wait-lists for decent nursing homes and independent living centres (and "long" can mean years). If you take in a parent/grandparent/disabled sibling, you're bumping them off that list.

Are they ideal choices? No, of course not. But that's true of everyone's life. And again: I'm not judging people without dependants, I feel nothing but sympathy for them. But when you're looking at people who are in a situation that could have their kids sent to foster care or their grandparent to a low-care facility (which yeah, is an extreme, but it's a real one), then I think there's more than once person's suffering to think about.

 

[Froggy Slayer]

Suicide is....

It's a difficult subject. From what I've gathered, it's technically a selfish action, but a lot of people use this to act like dicks if they here about someone killing them self. You have to think about it from the point of view of the victim; just because a problem is temporary doesn't make it appear temporary while one is experiencing it. Everyone has their breaking point. I know that I've come damn close to it a few times.

 

[saoirse13]

Its a debatable subject. Part of me can understand why at that given time just before someone takes the plunge why it may seem like the only logical answer to that persons problems.

However, Speaking from personal experience, I know exactly how selfish it is too.

My Dad committed suicide 5 years ago. He left behind not only me, but 2 very young sons behind, friends and a mother who loved him.
Now im not going to go into my whole life story, but his death may have been slightly easier on me than others in the family. I only knew my dad for a year before he took his life, I was 19 at the time of his death, but for his sons it has been worse they grew up with Dad who was very much a huge part of their life, as he spent every day with them.
I missed out on 18 years of my life with my dad due to my parents having me young and breaking up, now im missing out on the rest of my adult life as my brother are to miss out on the rest of their childhood, teen years and adult years because of his selfish choice to leave those who needed him behind.
Im not angry with him anymore for what he choose, and because i got to know him and had a year with him as father and daughter i will always love him, but i can't help but be angry at the fact he could just leave behind his sons. they have to grow up without a father... And due to other reasons it has left families torn apart. My fathers ex wife, has refused to let me have contact with my brothers, mainly because she blames me for my dads death, she blames the fact that me and my father got in touch after 18 years on part of his death, for whatever reason. so as much as i would love to have a relationship with brothers that i have also missed out on having a part in their life, i will have to wait ontill they are 18 for them to decide if they want to know their sister.
My Dad as do others who go through things that drive them to the point of suicide needed help. He was at point were he could see no other way out of his problems, i only wish he could have went to someone to talk to them, even if it had have been myself. Unless you have dealt with something like this, then it is hard to judge or have an opinion on it. I can understand all views and opinions, I can understand the anger, the sadness, the regret, why it is selfish, because i've had all of those opinions.
It is a mental illness and people who are going through any sort of depression need to seek help, to deal with their issues. There is always another way, suicide is not the answer. its the easy way out.

 

[DugMachine]

Indifferent. One side of me says people should be allowed to off themselves if they wish to but depending on their responsibilities determines their 'selfishness' or not. If you're caring for children (especially young ones) and you kill yourself you not only put extreme grief on them but on your partner.

If you have a shit job, are alone and you feel it's the only way out then by all means, do what you believe is best for you but don't ever try and harm someone before you go as some last act of petty revenge.

But even then I wish people wouldn't commit suicide. Suicide seems like heat of the moment thing more times than not and not a 'planned' thing. Why would you plan for death when it doesn't matter when you kill yourself, once it's done it's all over. Point being, I wish people would think over it more before committing the act, maybe seeing that life is worth it.

 

[Bug MuIdoon]

I've tried various times throughout my life, and undoubtedly will try again at some point. It's not something I'm proud of, I do not brag about it (the only reason I'm mentioning it is because it's the topic at hand and figured and insiders point of view might be interesting for others) nor do I wear My Chemical Romance t-shirts and call myself emo (or whatever the internet's stereotypes are) or try to glorify self harm in any way.
I've, quite frankly, had a shit upbringing, been abused both mentally and physically by parents and was also raped when I was young. I drank bleach at about aged 12, and have tried to slit my wrists numerous times throughout my teenage years.
I know there is a lot of beauty out within the world, but unfortunately at times for some people it is just unimaginable and unobtainable. My ordeals have left me suffering from manic depression that I do get on top off, but unfortunately also drags me down to despair again from time to time.
I've also found a friend of mine with her wrists slit, and seeing that also makes you think about how selfish the act can actually be towards others. It is not something you ever forget.

Luckily I have found an amazing girlfriend who I have spent the past 9 years of my life with and who keeps me in check :]

 

[PeterMerkin69]

Oh, certainly. In the cases that I'm thinking about (although only one was a suicide) the people involved would definitely say that the biggest issue is missing the parent - but if you compare the older vs. younger kids, you can see that the older ones benefitted from having the higher standard of living (in terms of their own eventual careers, family lives, and mental health).

Lots of people benefit from lots of things. Doesn't mean they deserve them, much less that you have to provide them. This is still more selfishness on behalf of the survivors. And none of these are necessary.

Sure, but I think it's fair to say that part of responsible parenting is providing your kids with the best possible environment. Sure, they'll survive with less, but wouldn't you want more for them, even if it came at a cost to yourself?

No, not to the extent that it dictates the course of your entire life. There really is no point in living if everything you do--as would literally be the case for someone who wants to opt out--is for other people.

Are they ideal choices? No, of course not. But that's true of everyone's life. And again: I'm not judging people without dependants, I feel nothing but sympathy for them. But when you're looking at people who are in a situation that could have their kids sent to foster care or their grandparent to a low-care facility (which yeah, is an extreme, but it's a real one), then I think there's more than once person's suffering to think about.

There is, but I still say it's outweighed by that of the person who suffered to the point that they had to turn it off. Unless the kids and grandparents kill themselves too because, god forbid, they have to endure the same hardships as the commoners, their selfishness is greater than the selfishness of the person who kills themselves, as is the person looking at this from the outside and commenting because it all offends them so much.

 

[Raikas]

There is, but I still say it's outweighed by that of the person who suffered to the point that they had to turn it off. Unless the kids and grandparents kill themselves too because, god forbid, they have to endure the same hardships as the commoners, their selfishness is greater than the selfishness of the person who kills themselves, as is the person looking at this from the outside and commenting because it all offends them so much.

Yeah, I think we're coming at this from two very different world views, because I honestly do believe that stsying connected to your loved ones is ideal.

My personal angle is this - the husband of one of my SIL's closest friends killed himself - he had three kids: 5,4, and 1. His wife was the one who found him. The two of them were full partners in everything - bills, childcare, all that. She couldn't afford their (not fancy, ftr) apartment on her own, so she and the kids moved back home with her parents (lucky for her, her family believes in interconnected families, or I don't know what would have happene to them). There's no "living with the commoners" snark needed there - that's hard shit for her and for those kids, and for the family that's helping them out. Yeah, I'm sure he was suffering before - but the rest of his family is suffering now, so you'll forgive me if my main sympathies lie with those kids and not with him.

Anyway, we're clearly not changing each other's minds on this one so, live and let live, right?

 

[Kevlar Eater]

I'm pro-suicide. I'm all for it for the following scenarios:

- Terminal illness(es) that's causing the sufferer pain every second
- Crushing financial debt with no decent job offerings on the horizon
- Being a financial burden to family, society, god or country
- 5+ years of acquired mental illness(es) while showing no signs of recovery, short- or long-term

I think I've covered a lot of bases.

 

[Elfgore]

I only think suicide is okay if extreme conditions are met, most are medical reasons. If I'm a vegatable and being fed through a tube, I want my life to end because I am no longer living. Now in case of depression no, you can cure or at least help depression.

 

[HardkorSB]

It's a subject I often find myself thinking about for one reason or another and I'm curious what my fellow Escapists think about it.

I know a lot of people find it to be one of the most selfish things a person can do and while I can see the argument that's being made I personally don't find that to be true in all cases..if any at all. Those who actually go through with it were obviously very troubled and more than likely weren't thinking ahead as to how it may affect those around them.

So what are your thoughts on suicide?

I tried it once, took a large amount of medication that, according to multiple sources were supposed to kill me. After that, I got really high for a few hours... and that's it. Does that make me a complete failure? Perhaps.
Or maybe I'm immortal, I don't know.

Anyway, about the arguments against suicide:

1. It's selfish:
You know what's selfish? When you want someone to keep going through living hell (which is what life comes down to, in the eyes of someone who wants to kill themselves) for the sake of keeping you happy.
Also, if other people weren't there for me when I needed them then why should I be there for other people?
Another thing - everything we do is selfish. Even the so called "selfless acts" like donating to charity or saving someone's life while risking our own are selfish since we do them because WE would be affected by it (physically, mentally or both) if we didn't and that's what really motivates us. Think about it for a moment and it will start to make sense.

2. They weren't thinking about the people around them:
I'm pretty sure they were. People don't just commit suicide out of nowhere. They think about it a lot before doing it. They think about everything related to it.
I waited years before I attempted it, simply because I didn't want to hurt my mom.

3. They're mentally ill:
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
You don't have to be mentally ill to do it, nor do you have to have an incurable disease or large debts.
Sometimes, you just don't want to live in this society. The rules, the structure, the things people do to each other just to get ahead, the fact that you can be honest and work hard only to be used and disrespected by everyone around you, the fact that a piece of paper is worth much more than a life, the fact that you'll never achieve anything in your life, that you'll be doing shitty "soul destroying" jobs until you'll get old and then you'll die and no one will care, how humans beings are slowly destroying everything on this planet, including themselves etc. All that can push you over the edge. Some people don't accept the reality that humanity has created for itself.
What is more is that you can't escape this. It's everywhere. Death really is the only way to escape this and some people do just that.

This might be off topic but I believe that all of those people who go on to do mass shootings firstly consider suicide. They realize however that, while a suicide is disregarded by society, mass shootings aren't. People care about those and suicidal people want others to care about them (and once they're pushed far enough to do it, the distinction between positive and negative attention ceases to exist).
I think that doing it is equal to showing a middle finger before leaving, instead of just going out quietly.
This might not of course, be true for all mass shootings but I believe this is the explanation for at least some of them.

I've thought about death a lot and I've come to a conclusion that life goes by so fast (and the older you get, the faster it goes) that I'll be dead soon anyway, might as well try to entertain myself for a bit while waiting for the inevitable (unless the technology will advance so much that I'll be able to become a cyborg or something and not die at all, then I'll have to think about it some more

 

[Unstoppable Wall]

I personally feel that suicide is incredibly selfish, the only time I see it as a viable option is in cases of doctor assisted suicide, and then it's only cases in which a patient is terminal with no chance of recovery and is so miserable that they, in their right mind, agree to it. Taking the stance that suicide is selfish may seem sort of hypocritical because you want someone who is miserable with life to weather a difficult time, however you must also consider that if they take their life, the only real concerns they are taking into mind are their own. Weighed against the emotions of the many people that do care about a person, it seems a bit ridiculous that the stance of wanting someone to seek an alternative way out would be selfish.

 

[Linakrbcs]

I don't know....it's painful for those who are left behind, who have to deal with the pain and guilt and constantly asking themselves if they shouldn't have noticed that something was wrong.
I suppose people who kill themselves often don't realize that they aren't alone, that there are people who care about them and want to help.
I'm kind of torn between a conservative christian background, which emphazises the sanctity of life and the value of bravely bearing your burdens.
On the other hand, demanding that somebody else continue to live in severe emotional pain so you don't have to seems somewhat selfish.