What do you think is the greatest epic fail for humanity?

[boholikeu]

And why is faith stupid?

Because it defies logic. I consider that believing in anything that defies logic and that there is absolutely no evidence at all to support is blind stupidity.

There is no evidence there is no God. In fact, the scientific method particularly states that we can not objectively prove nor disprove the existence of God. As such, it is just as illogical to believe there is no God as it is to believe in one.

I suppose that makes agnostics the only people that aren't blindly stupid by your definition. Are you perhaps agnostic?

Though I'd like to clarify that my parents accepting my views is NOT a point for my Religion. It is a point for my parents, who are NOT following the religion as accurately as it would like them to. My Religion dictates that I HAVE to pray or I'm a heathen who will go to hell. That is what the "institution" thinks. It's just that the one's who are expected to enforce that rule, have cut me some slack....

Fair enough. Though again not all religions preclude their believers from dabbling in other religions.

 

[Ignuus66]

-snip-

 

[Trolldor]

The Crusades were in response to Muslims invading and overtaking Jerusalem and then forbidding any non-Muslims from entering its walls.
One can not simply dismiss the religious fervour and rhetoric that surrounded the entire thing as being secondary.

It might not be secondary, but it certainly wasn't the main reason, either. To make a claim like that you'd have to completely disregard the strategic and economic importance of the area. Do you honestly think people would have never fought over the Middle East if religion didn't exist?

Firstly, faith is stupid because it is a blind acceptance.

Secondly, without religion the Muslims would have never taken Jerusalem and declared it off-limits to all non-Muslims.

Edit: Nor could the Christians have mobilised such blindly idiotic zealots to launch a holy war.

 

[boholikeu]

The Crusades were in response to Muslims invading and overtaking Jerusalem and then forbidding any non-Muslims from entering its walls.
One can not simply dismiss the religious fervour and rhetoric that surrounded the entire thing as being secondary.

It might not be secondary, but it certainly wasn't the main reason, either. To make a claim like that you'd have to completely disregard the strategic and economic importance of the area. Do you honestly think people would have never fought over the Middle East if religion didn't exist?

Firstly, faith is stupid because it is a blind acceptance.

Secondly, without religion the Muslims would have never taken Jerusalem and declared it off-limits to all non-Muslims.

So do you acknowledge or deny the economic and strategic importance of the holy land?

And can you honestly say you've never blindly accepted something?

Edit: actually recent studies show the Christian recruitment for the crusades seems to have revolved more around the spoils of war.

 

[boholikeu]

There is no evidence there is no God. In fact, the scientific method particularly states that we can not objectively prove nor disprove the existence of God. As such, it is just as illogical to believe there is no God as it is to believe in one.

I suppose that makes agnostics the only people that aren't blindly stupid by your definition. Are you perhaps agnostic?

See thats where your wrong. It is illogical to believe in something when there is absolutely no way to actually prove that it exists. It is logical to not believe in something because there is absolutely no proof that it exists.

Believing in god is just as logical as believing in santa clause or the easter bunny.

Actually, it would be logical to have no opinion on the subject since logically there can be no objectively provable answer. Asserting either the existence or absence of God is just as illogical as the other

 

[A-D.]

I realize you probably just meant this as a joke, but...

Does not make Religion itself bad, knock yourself out, believe in what you will. Just stop pointing at some Religion and going "Oh yeah, im with those Guys" because at the end of the Day, "those Guys" are also the same fanatic nutjobs who would but you in iron boots and pour molten iron into it. Or cut off your Breasts (in case you are a Woman), or burn you at the Stake or..do i need to go on?

Doesn't the above hold true for associating yourself with any social institution (say, political group, nation, or cultural group)? Heck, some atheists have done some pretty horrible things in the past too, so are you sure you want to associate yourself with them?

So yeah, let People believe what they want to believe and just outlaw organized Religion because some damn Idiot will use it for War or whatever again and again anyway.

So, you can believe what you want, just as long as you don't get together with other people and organize yourselves behind that belief? Right, that doesn't sound evil =)

What would the punishments for creating an organized religion be?

I could answer that with a ridiculously long statement from my side pointing out every logical flaw and loop-hole. But to prevent People from having to read till their Eyes fall out, or calling TD;LR on it. I make it very simple.

Read up on the History and Practices during the Dark Ages, the Crusades and the Inquisition being very neat for that. Read the old Testament, which in my Opinion is still the best "How to" Book ever written, specifically "How to Kill any Person for any Reason in the name of God". You can find a Reason to kill someone for simply breathing in there if you look hard enough. Always remind yourself however that when you think of the "New Testament" that God never told 4 People to write the revised Version. So only the old one counts.

You can probably expand from there onto other Topics which include Religion in some shape or form in atrocities which are linked to some Degree to it, or used as excuses for it. Also read up on how AIDS spreads in Africa primarily due to the catholic Ban of using Condoms.

Well now ya got something to do :3

 

[kloiberin_time]

I have to say it is not religion that is the largest problem, but those you wield for their own personal gain.

Most if not all of the modern world was build upon various religions one way or another. Both good and bad. Anyone who disagrees from either side needs to crack a history book.

Having faith is not a bad thing. Being blinded by your faith is. To think that God loves you, your people, your race, your country, etc. the most is wrong. Sometimes multiple paths lead to the same place.

Sane people will agree that Jesus was not reborn as David Koresh. They will not believe that God honestly wants soldiers and babies and tornado victims to die because of homosexuality. I personally have to agree with Tim Minchin about the Pope, yet I am but a man and to write off an entire religion because of a few pedophiles and the higher ups that protected them is just as wrong as writing off Islam because of a fraction of a percent of their followers who commit heinous crimes.

Yet every religion has faltered at times. From the Spanish Inquisition to the Crusades to suicide bombings to what Israel is doing in Gaza they have sinned. Hindu's kill Muslims and the Chinese Government kills in Tibet. All across the scale in every religion and every non-religion atrocities have been committed in the name of that belief.

So no, religion is not the biggest epic fail. Those who use it as a sword, an arrow or a cloak and dagger are not even the biggest fail. It is those who turn a blind eye to the wrongs committed by members of their faith for the sole reason that they share it are the biggest fail in history.

 

[Lancer873]

Bags. If we were made to use bags, we would've been given three hands...

I don't follow. Surely if we had a spare hand, we wouldn't need nearly as many bags?

Have you ever tried to hold open a large bag while putting something in it? Unless you've tied the thing down, it's impossible to get anything in it... [insert bondage innuendo here]

 

[Naix99]

I'd say most of the religious war are retty big fails but this has been covered up already.

Religion became a weapon of fear for those hungy with power. Which is now the greatest stories ever told, religions were supposed to be wonderful vehiculed moral, spiritualism and good will litteratures.

I think religion still has its reasons to be here but the big image everyone is following is completly wrong. No matter your religion, God (or Gods) is a loving, caring entity.

Also I'd say that Tchernobyl was a pretty huge fail also

 

[boholikeu]

Actually, it would be logical to have no opinion on the subject since logically there can be no objectively provable answer. Asserting either the existence or absence of God is just as illogical as the other

Now your just acting silly. Your arguement has a majory flaw in it. Its true that there is no objectively provable answer but that is true with many make believe things. The evidence that god does not exist lies in the fact that there is no evidence to prove that she exists.

One day this may prove different and if god suddenly comes to earth and say guess what bitches I really do exist then fine I will accept it at that point in time. Untill then all evidence points to there not being a god. Atleast that is the only logical way that I can look at it.

So you admit the possibility that God might exist, but you say that it's illogical for anyone to believe so?

I realize you probably just meant this as a joke, but...

Does not make Religion itself bad, knock yourself out, believe in what you will. Just stop pointing at some Religion and going "Oh yeah, im with those Guys" because at the end of the Day, "those Guys" are also the same fanatic nutjobs who would but you in iron boots and pour molten iron into it. Or cut off your Breasts (in case you are a Woman), or burn you at the Stake or..do i need to go on?

Doesn't the above hold true for associating yourself with any social institution (say, political group, nation, or cultural group)? Heck, some atheists have done some pretty horrible things in the past too, so are you sure you want to associate yourself with them?

So yeah, let People believe what they want to believe and just outlaw organized Religion because some damn Idiot will use it for War or whatever again and again anyway.

So, you can believe what you want, just as long as you don't get together with other people and organize yourselves behind that belief? Right, that doesn't sound evil =)

What would the punishments for creating an organized religion be?

I could answer that with a ridiculously long statement from my side pointing out every logical flaw and loop-hole. But to prevent People from having to read till their Eyes fall out, or calling TD;LR on it. I make it very simple.

Read up on the History and Practices during the Dark Ages, the Crusades and the Inquisition being very neat for that. Read the old Testament, which in my Opinion is still the best "How to" Book ever written, specifically "How to Kill any Person for any Reason in the name of God". You can find a Reason to kill someone for simply breathing in there if you look hard enough. Always remind yourself however that when you think of the "New Testament" that God never told 4 People to write the revised Version. So only the old one counts.

You can probably expand from there onto other Topics which include Religion in some shape or form in atrocities which are linked to some Degree to it, or used as excuses for it. Also read up on how AIDS spreads in Africa primarily due to the catholic Ban of using Condoms.

Well now ya got something to do :3

The above doesn't answer any of the questions I posed for you. If indeed you could write a ridiculously long statement pointing out every logical flaw and loop-hole in my response, then I fully invite you to do so. I assure you I won't dismiss it with a "TLDR", and if you are concerned with others complaining about the length then send it to me in a pm.

 

[Torrasque]

*snip*

You're right, Religion is basically an opinion that people have about something, but it is such a terribly infectious opinion, and a terribly retarded reason, for wars to be started.
Don't get me wrong, I think all wars are dumb.
But saying "You don't believe in the mystical thing that may or may not exist, so you must die!" is a ridiculous reason to kill someone.

 

[Trolldor]

The Crusades were in response to Muslims invading and overtaking Jerusalem and then forbidding any non-Muslims from entering its walls.
One can not simply dismiss the religious fervour and rhetoric that surrounded the entire thing as being secondary.

It might not be secondary, but it certainly wasn't the main reason, either. To make a claim like that you'd have to completely disregard the strategic and economic importance of the area. Do you honestly think people would have never fought over the Middle East if religion didn't exist?

Firstly, faith is stupid because it is a blind acceptance.

Secondly, without religion the Muslims would have never taken Jerusalem and declared it off-limits to all non-Muslims.

So do you acknowledge or deny the economic and strategic importance of the holy land?

And can you honestly say you've never blindly accepted something?

Edit: actually recent studies show the Christian recruitment for the crusades seems to have revolved more around the spoils of war.

Whoever said I denied anything? You're the one refusing to accept how large of a factor religion was in the matter.
For starters, Jerusalem was only 'of key economic importance' because it was the central holy point for three primary religions - Christianty, Judaism and Islam. That naturally saw a great deal of trade visit the region.

 

[Ignuus66]

The roman empire. You might say that the roman empire was full of great inventors, builders and philosophers, but it had one, fatal flaw: it relied on conquest. If the roman empire would not have appeared, the smaller ancient civilizations (greece, egypt, carthage, and the remnants of the persian empire) would still have existed, and since they were not a unified government, barbarians would not have destroyed the knowledge and learning, innovations would have continued, and we would be much more developed technologically than currently, without major set backs as the dark ages. So summary: one big empire CAN NOT LAST FOREVER, THEY ARE THE MOST UNSTABLE OF ALL EMPIRES/COUNTRIES examples are: Mongolian empire, persian empire, colonial britain, colonial france, byzance, ottoman, USSR (russia is no longer a superpower), ancient china, colonial france, colonial Spain, Austro-Hungarian monarchy (habsburg empire), Macedon empire, and much more. They always collapse. smaller nations are usually stabler than large ones. (look Sweden vs US Sweden is much stabler, and better off economically than the US)

As a side note, cold war was one of the best eras for scientific progress, USA and USSR each tried to get better tech than the other and caused many new scientific innovations and progress in general (Apollo program anyone?.
WW2 was needed, some nations needed to let off steam, if it would not have happened, thigns would have gotten a lot more drastic.
Also religion is not a fail (not counting cults and scientology), the fanatics are the ones who fail. (athiest fanatics fail too)

( srsly reccaptcha?

 

[similar.squirrel]

---snip---

I see you aren't serious about this argument. Sorry to waste your time.

You must get many accolades at the debate club. That is one hell of a response.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

Religion. All of them. No single incident of death will ever do more damage than religion has. Their casualty numbers still going strong.

I'd like to, as a former atheist, offer a thought; perhaps it is not the religion that is flawed, but those who practice it? At least, I found myself opening up to the concept once I realized it wasn't god or the church I despised, it was the people that used it to justify things like intolerance and oppression. I'm a christian, I do not hate gay people at all (some of my friends are gay), and I am not opposed to their getting married. We're not all bible thumping retards out to wag our smug fingers at people that do wrong, in fact christians aren't even really supposed to be doing that.

Simply, my point is that maybe it's not the club, but the members, you should resent.


*soapbox ends*

You...

It's just surprising to see anybody write that... I thought we were in a world divided between "Christians" and Atheists, Christians who throw every verse in the bible at gays or atheists and only show ignorance and hate (they are either hypocrites or morons), and athiests who believe God is rubbish simply because of the flaws of the people that worship him...

I thought someone who sees past this, someone like you, didn't exist, I was wrong thankfully.

Peace to everyone, no matter their sexual orientation or beliefs, that will be all.

Really? I thought most atheists don't believe in god because of the scientific impossibilities (Not to mention plot holes the size of a battleship), in the bible, and because many of the teachings are rubbish (Ex. Homosexuality is wrong.) At least, that is why me and the atheists I know do >.> Doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to not believe in something because a lot of people that practice a religion are ignorant.

Atheists read the bible wrong (assuming they even read some of it), it wasn't meant to be a book of science at all, allot of the stories can be seen as merely symbolic and not literal occurrences. It was meant to teach faith through the examples it gives and PEOPLE were used to write it, they saw things happen and interpreted it in their own primitive way (it was a primitive time) and wrote it down to teach the lessons of faith, not science. Science we can pretty much figure out for ourselves. There will be plot holes, sure but that is either because we haven't studied it well or didn't make the right conclusions or simply because of the fact that the bible has been written by humans who only wrote what they saw, which left some flaws in the writing and then got further flawed when it was rewritten and reinterpreted a hundred times over and from one language to a different language each time.

Whether or not the "homosexuality is wrong" writing was part of this series of disastrous rewritings is for the reader to decide, and whatever you decide, you can't go judging or hating others for doing something you interpreted as wrong, it's not your place to judge them, they need to sort themselves out and according to true Christian teachings (according to my opinion) you can only care for people, let God judge them. Also, you don't go to hell for being homosexual, and it is the opinion of some that the ACT of homosexual sex is the sin, not being homosexual.

I myself personally think that the scriptures on homosexuality desperately need reevaluation because the writer of one of the bible scriptures that I know of that wrote it as a sin was listing it amongst other sins and probably didn't really understand homosexuality and was threatened by it and thus interpreted it as sin.

Allot of what I say could be wrong, I'm not an expert at debating and I can't always explain things properly.

Also, you might not have a need for faith and that's fine and really not my business but this is just what I think.

I thought it was supposed to be a book of ultimate truths? If it is then shouldn't everything it in be correct? Shouldn't every teaching be perfect? Shouldn't there be no plot holes, and nothing that goes against the laws of our universe (Science)? If this book is so full of truth how can anything in it need reevaluation? If the rules it sets forth can simply be changed when it is required what is the point of believing in it at all, but thats just my thinking I suppose.

I also have only noticed people calling the stories metaphors only when it has been proved to either be impossible or never happened at all, but I could be wrong.

Hmmmm, where does it say this in the bible? About it being the ultimate truth in science?
I need to check that.

And yes, we can reevaluate it. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

And men have made it flawed and it was written to teach FAITH, everything it talks about is on the topic of FAITH so if it says "all truth" then it is the truth of faith which is the secret to the deeper purpose of the universe (in our belief) so yes, it is in a way the ultimate truth.

I said that if a book is supposed to be the ultimate truth then everything in it should be correct, no? If things in it are impossible, such as creating something from nothing, then how can it be seen as the truth, and how can anything in it be taken seriously?

Never read the bible so I didn't know about that particular bit of scripture. Thanks.

In response to the last sentence... what? o_o

I don't know who ever told you it was the truth of every topic out there, but they are surely wrong and I apologize that you had to hear that.

And "ultimate truth" is a wide term depending on your point of view. It could mean truth in every physical thing or the truth to the bigger, deeper purpose behind them. A purpose deeper than what we can see or calculate or fathom. A purpose to the universe that goes beyond science. A purpose so beyond our understanding that we can't bother to look at it with the tools at our disposal such as science or logic. All we can do is do as we are told, which is to have faith and through faith, we will eventually see. Sorry, just thinking out loud.


But that's just what I believe, how I see things and my opinion isn't of higher value than yours if that's what I was making it out to be.

 

[Traun]

---snip---

I see you aren't serious about this argument. Sorry to waste your time.

You must get many accolades at the debate club. That is one hell of a response.

I do. I have learned when to continue and when not to, this is one of the case where my opponent has a falacity in every single sentence. From the fact that the Fascism had nothing to do with Germany, the use of "Nazi"( I think this is what you were shooting for) as an example where it is not appropriate, ignoring the fact that the spread of Christian teaching in the East was halted due to the Pope's desire to maintain religious purity (not an isolated example mind you) to the fact that religious charities are non-discriminatory (they won't turn down a non-believer, nor will they force him to convert).

I recommend you do not respond to this, I will probably not bother reading it, and would put even less effort in writing back.