What do you think of men passing abortion laws?

[JimB]

Sex isn't a crime; let's not exaggerate each other's statements.

Dude, you're the one who said abortion bails people out. Bail is what you need to be released from prison; prison is where you go when you're convicted of a crime.

However I think people should be responsible for what they do and that it's wrong that people can just kill a child as a solution to something brought about by their own irresponsibility.

I don't like it either, but the alternative is worse.

Using anecdotes isn't good evidence; sure some people might not understand basic human biology, but most do, so it's fair to say that people know the consequences of what they are doing.

I agree that "anecdote" is not a synonym for "data," but let me suggest that you be very careful demanding an evidential chain from me in the same breath that you make unsupported, uncited statements about how "most" people understand basic human biology.

We aren't gonna see eye to eye on this since we are in disagreement at every stage of the argument; I consider a fetus life [snip]

I do too. I just don't care. This discussion demands that I choose between the interests of microscopic proto-humans and the women whose existence those microscopic beings affect. I choose the actualized humans.

[...]and sex as a means to an end coupled with pleasure, not as a fun thing people can do which has some minor consequences. Basically this is a massive waste of time since we aren't bringing anything new to the table.

Yes, it is, but so what? When is spending time posting on a forum like anyone gives a crap about some random internet guy's opinion ever anything but a waste of time?

 

[JimB]

I don't really understand what's the controversy's about. Making abortion legal will give women control over their bodies and lives if they want it. If they don't, nobody makes/should make them commit an abortion.

The controversy is that some people define a fetus as a human being, so to them, abortion is state-sanctioned murder.

 

[JimB]

The controversy is that some people define a fetus as a human being, so to them, abortion is state-sanctioned murder.

Two words: rape victims. Any counterargument is invalid.

No. I'm sorry, but it isn't.

Look, this seems like the kind of situation where I need to reiterate this, so I'll just get this out of the way: I believe legalized abortion is a necessity in our society, and if anyone tries to criminalize it I will lobby against them. That said, you simply cannot hold up a rape victim as a combination of mascot for your position and shield to hide behind. No one is saying that rape is not a horrible thing; even most people in this thread who have been arguing against rape would make exceptions for rape victims. But if a person genuinely believes that a fetus is a human life, then it is extremely difficult to morally justify murdering that human for the crimes committed by someone else before he was even conceived. It is not fair that the rape victim should have to bear her attacker's child, yet neither is it fair, from the fetus = human standpoint, for a completely innocent party to die for something he was completely incapable of participating in.

The abortion issue is extremely complicated, and there is no right answer to it. But trying to simplify it by saying "Rape victims: Your argument is invalid" is a disservice to everyone involved.

 

[Deathmageddon]

Abortion isn't a women's right's issue, when Roe v. Wade was in the US Supreme Court, women couldn't have kids AND a job. But that's no longer the case. The issue is whether or not infanticide is morally justifiable.

 

[JimB]

Wait a second.

No one is saying that rape is not a horrible thing; even most people in this thread who have been arguing against rape would make exceptions for rape victims.

..Did I just say--

even most people in this thread who have been arguing against rape would make exceptions for rape victims.

sonuva

Okay, moving on. What were you saying?

Then we must go deeply into it.

I could ask for no better.

 

[TehCookie]

Im giving up on this, we arent going to be able to agree on anything here and im just responding because your the sort of person who would think a lack of a response means a concession of defeat. You are plenty wrong even if you disagree with me, you have a very basic and immature view of many things so its worthless arguing with you.

You couldn't tell that within the first few posts? I was just doing it to past the time. If you stopped posting I figured you'd get bored because you're not the type to change their mind. Though I was expecting a sociopathic viewpoint not immature, but hey whatever floats your boat.

 

[esperandote]

I'm pro-choice. No one can tell a Woman what She can and cannot do with her body.

1. Yes, I think Abortion should be legal. I also think the woman should not receive any money or possessions from the man if he wanted to abort but she refused. It's a mutual fucking decision, you're entitled to nothing.

A Man cannot force a Woman do do things to her body like abortion.

It takes two to make a baby, if he doesn't want to risk it he should abstinent. Otherwise Man up and realise what you created.

Im going to counter your first argument

It takes two to make a baby, if she doesn't want to risk it she should abstinent. Otherwise Woman up and realise what you created.

I'm pro life in case of consensual sex and healthy pregnancy. I believe people shouldn't be having recreational sex if is not willing to embrace the the possible consequences.

Good thing abortion is a possible consequence. Oops, looks like you're being selective about which possible consequences you support. Not a good argument.

Abortion is no a consequence of having sex, it's a solution of being pregnant.

 

[everythingbeeps]

The controversy is that some people define a fetus as a human being, so to them, abortion is state-sanctioned murder.

Two words: rape victims. Any counterargument is invalid.

No. I'm sorry, but it isn't.

Look, this seems like the kind of situation where I need to reiterate this, so I'll just get this out of the way: I believe legalized abortion is a necessity in our society, and if anyone tries to criminalize it I will lobby against them. That said, you simply cannot hold up a rape victim as a combination of mascot for your position and shield to hide behind. No one is saying that rape is not a horrible thing; even most people in this thread who have been arguing against rape would make exceptions for rape victims. But if a person genuinely believes that a fetus is a human life, then it is extremely difficult to morally justify murdering that human for the crimes committed by someone else before he was even conceived. It is not fair that the rape victim should have to bear her attacker's child, yet neither is it fair, from the fetus = human standpoint, for a completely innocent party to die for something he was completely incapable of participating in.

On the other hand, you have politicians who are actively trying to redefine what constitutes "rape". Instead of even considering that rape is a viable reason to get an abortion, they'd rather just tell the woman she wasn't raped after all.

Which is APPALLING.

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

I have a answer that I believe fits somewhere down the middle.

I think abortion should be legal but there should be a situaltional set of rules. There are cases such as rape where the woman should be able to abort her child if she wants, in peace. But there are also cases where the husband or suitor should have a say as well. I understand it's the woman's body but shouldn't the father have some say when it's also his child being aborted?

Captcha: Spin Doctor


EDIT:
Wow, I just read over some of these posts and I have to say I'm incredibly disappointed. I mean really? There's more than one of you saying that the choice only effects women and someone even said that if a man has a problem with it he should be abstinent! I really don't mean to push anyone's buttons but that's just moronic backwards thinking. We should just segregate white water fountains again cause y'know, it'd only effect white people since they're the only ones drinking from it right? What happened to Escapists? I have lost all hope. I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Basically the same way I feel about old men ordering young soldiers to their deaths so that their arms dealer campaign donors can get a steady paycheck.

 

[Phasmal]

I understand it's the woman's body but shouldn't the father have some say when it's also his child being aborted?

What kind of say do you imagine the man having?
Because if it is the end decision, then no. He should not be able to decide what she does with her body.
Besides.. what about rapists? What about women who aren't sure who the father is?
What if the father is a psycho?

Basically I see it as a 60/40 decision. If I were to get pregnant, boyfriend could say what he wanted. But he couldnt make the end decision. Because it's not his body.

 

[MortisLegio]

Q1: Can I say "Neither"? I don't think Abortion should be illegal, just for cases where it might be medically necessary, like if the choice is between aborting the baby so the mother can live, or not aborting and both of them die. Maybe also in cases of pregnancy through rape, but that's closer to the borderline than purely medical reasons.

That said, I don't think people should be able to get an abortion just because they were too stupid to use proper protection. I'd put forth that a woman who wanted an abortion would be required to go through counseling so the full consequences of their actions could be realized, and alternative suggestions like adoption be presented.

Q2: Of course they have that right. It just shouldn't be their right and theirs alone; women should be fully involved in it as well.

Wait... there is someone on this site that has the same opinion as me regarding abortion? Well I guess it was bound to happen. But, with all seriousness, I do agree with Buretsu.

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

I understand it's the woman's body but shouldn't the father have some say when it's also his child being aborted?

What kind of say do you imagine the man having?
Because if it is the end decision, then no. He should not be able to decide what she does with her body.
Besides.. what about rapists? What about women who aren't sure who the father is?
What if the father is a psycho?

Basically I see it as a 60/40 decision. If I were to get pregnant, boyfriend could say what he wanted. But he couldnt make the end decision. Because it's not his body.

Here's your problem, you're just going off of one sentence completely taken out of context. I said "I think abortion should be legal but there should be a situaltional set of rules" meaning that in cases where the father is mentally unstable or y'know, a rapist, she'd get full control. Another problem is that people are under this illusion that everything involved with an abortion is exclusively on the woman, that it's her body and emotional state and we should cradle her in our arms and give her full control of the situation regardless of the details. That concept is extremist, elitist, sexist, and utterly ridiculous. You don't think a fathers life can be utterly destroyed from an abortion he had absolutely no say in? What if he has the means to raise the child? What if he wants to raise the child himself? What if she is just a loose slut who has abortions like she's snacking on potato chips? What of the father? He's nothing? He's not a human being that has feelings? I'm not saying it should be his choice entirely, but he should also have a say in how things turn out as well as the woman. This isn't just her body, THAT'S HIS FUCKING SEED MAN! HALF HIS DNA! THAT IS A PART OF HIM! Stop thinking in black and white because even the smallest of things are not that simple, let alone a life choice such as this.