What do you think of men passing abortion laws?

[aestu]

Failed to explain how natural and unnatural are relevant, jumped to something else.

For the record, I am pro-abortion - but you are, like most feminists, a poor debater.

It is enough to point out that death is natural and murder is not, and that abortion, as a choice between natural life and unnatural death, should be held to the same standard as any other taking of life - that of an animal, enemy soldier, or convict - cases that can be justified according to some sort of moral scheme.

The question, then, becomes whether the fetus is alive, and if so, what gives the mother the right to terminate the life of her child before birth any more than she would after birth?

The answer is, of course, that the fetus is not fully developed. But if that is so, if we are to argue that the woman has sole choice in the matter, then why do we then require the man to pay child support based on the woman's decision?

Either pregnancy and birth are a matter of mutual choice, with both parties having equal choice and responsibility in the matter, or they are a matter of the mother's concern, with her having full choice and responsibility in the matter. Surely it is not logical to separate choice and responsibility, no? So which is it, Gravesend?

 

[Agow95]

1. Of course people should be allowed to choose if they should have an abortion, we should have restrictions on it to prevent it being used as a common form of birth control rather than a solution to a medical, social, or financial problem that means the it would be best for the mother that the child isn't born
2. I don't see how men legalising abortions is wrong, it's not as if we're forcing women to abort their babies, and it's not so much a moral problem if they make it illegal for whatever reason

 

[Emperor Nat]

Oh boy I think I'm going to regret posting *prepares flame shield*

I disagree with abortion personally, mainly because I view an unborn child as having the same rights as a any human. I know that it can be argued that it is not really a human but a foetus or a bunch of cells so can be terminated without a problem however that logic doesn't sit right with me. For children that could be born with debilitating diseases or the birth would pose a risk to the mother, then that is a bit more morally grey for me, but I won't go into detail in this post. As for whether in should be illegal I don't know, I would personally have it limited to only in cases of risk to the mother or severe disabilities in the child. However that would mess create a whole new tangled mess of moral questions, with women who don't want the child and trying to force them to keep the child they don't is not something I could condone. So I guess the laws would have to allow women to choose what they do regardless of my personal feelings on the matter.

I think men should be part of the process of laws regarding abortion just as much as women. I mean they are affected by pregnancies also (not physically obviously), so it would be wrong to completely exclude men from the discussion. I'm not saying men should be able to dictate to women on abortion, but rather view points from both genders on either side of the issue should be considered when drafting up laws.

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Essentially summarised my views here. I consider myself pro-life, though I accept there are instances where it is a morally grey area based on risk to the mother, or traumatic experiences such as rape which initially resulted in impregnation. I personally do not believe that the woman's right to ignore the consequences of their actions overrides that of the child's right to life however (read: consensual sex resulting in unwanted healthy pregnancy).

In terms of law, part of a democratic system is that everyone qualified to vote gets to have a say on what happens. I admit that men obviously are not as directly affected by this kind of law, but it doesn't immediately mean that the opinions of roughly 50% of the public should be ignored.

 

[JimB]

The question, then, becomes whether the fetus is alive[snip]

No, it doesn't. Only the most deluded or ignorant person would argue a fetus is not alive. The question is whether a fetus has any rights, and whether those rights are primary over the mother's.

 

[Micromyni]

I am also pro-choice and am of the firm opinion that anyone who does not have to deal with the realities of pregnancy and never will has absolutely no say in what I do with my lady bits. Having children is one of the ways abusive boyfriends trap their girlfriends in relationships, and these male politicians have absolutely no idea what they're doing to women's rights. If we can't have our own bodily autonomy, what else will be taken away from us?

 

[JimB]

Having children is one of the ways abusive boyfriends trap their girlfriends in relationships, and these male politicians have absolutely no idea what they're doing to women's rights.

Um...I'm not real sure what your point here is. Are you saying that legalized abortion prevents abusive relationships?

 

[Jaythulhu]

I think that men passing laws on abortion is about as logically wrong as I'd think women passing laws on circumcision/castration would be.

The sperm depositor should have some say in regards to potential abortions specific to them, but outside of that we blokes should be putting our hands up, saying "Whoa, that's none of my business, I'm getting the fuck out of dodge while I still have testicles attached" and then going for a beer.

 

[T0BB0]

Politicians are generally male. That's a fact of the times. More males go into politics than women, the women who do go into politics sometimes aren't elected because they aren't popular with their region. Whether they are male or not, politicians have to pass laws to determine how we all live. It's pretty much in their job description. Is it good to have a woman's perspective on abortion? Of course. Should it be down to women alone to make this decision? Not really, it shouldn't make a difference. A politician should be elected because his/her opinions on how we should live corellate with the majority of the populace, so it shouldn't make a difference whether it's a guy or girl. Likewise, if there were women in power who believed that men should be castrated, it would be a result of living in a region or country of a populace that believed these women should be in a position of power, and that they agree that men should be castrated. I'd then jump on the next refugee boat outta there, but that's beside the point.

I agree with the choice of abortion. I'm not going to go into my reasoning for my beliefs, but I am going to give some advice to any man whose woman is considering an abortion.

Just remember to take care of her, be sensitive to her feelings. Whether she is pro-choice or not, it is a difficult process for her, and she is emotionally going through a lot. Abortion isn't a "Get out of jail free" card. They've still had something growing inside them for a while, and they can get emotionally attached to it. Go with her to the clinic, defend her from any protesters, hold her hands, hug her close. Be there for her when she needs you.

 

[doggy go 7]

of course abortion should be illegal.

I think given the overall weighing of opinion on this forum, that's not an of course at all, thus would you care to explain it to me, purely out of my morbid curiosity of understanding the other side better

OT 1) yes legal, because babies can fuck too many lives, be so unplanned and unwanted and unloved that it's crueller to bring them in then to get rid of something that was never alive (abortion shouldn't be used as a contraceptive tool, rather a last resort, but I do see foetuses and sperm and eggs in the same manner of unaliveness)
2) as others have pointed out, these are elected officials who are trying to represent their constituents, the fact fewer women are involved in being a candidate in the first place is more of an area of concern to me

 

[Kevlar Eater]

Question: Do you agree that women should be able to choose or do you think that abortion should be illegal?

Of course I think abortion should remain legal, the same way I wish men weren't forced to pay for children that usually aren't theirs, but that's another debate.

Question 2: Do you think that men have a right to help pass or stop a law which prevents abortion?

Debates like this should involve both genders to hopefully greatly reduce potential bias, but even then both sides will end up drawing a line in the sand and throw their biased points at each other. Either path chosen, no one's getting out unscathed.

 

[itsthesheppy]

I'm pro-choice. Women have the right to decide what's best for their own bodies. While I think men have a place in the conversation, I do not believe their place is one of authority. I do not believe that a single abortion-related law ought to be passed without at least a 50/50 split in the genders of those casting the votes.

 

[Twilight_guy]

I'm pro-life.

Yes, men should be able to pass these laws. If we are saying that we can't pass these laws because they don't understand then it means that congress basically can't do anything. Most members of congress arn't black men yet they can pass affirmative action laws and laws that affect primarily black communities. Most congress men aren't Mexicans yet they pass laws governing Mexican immigration. Most congress men are white older men yet they pass laws that affect everyone. We can't just say that they don't understand and shouldn't be passing laws because we don't have a congress for each subgroup, we have one congress. More over, it also implies that humans can't understand one another. It implies that men can never understand women and one can never understand the situation of another fully. I refuse to believe that.

 

[Micromyni]

Um...I'm not real sure what your point here is. Are you saying that legalized abortion prevents abusive relationships?

Yes. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/20316.php

 

[Dr. Crawver]

Lemme just start out by saying that I'm pro-choice. Women should have the right to have an abortion...

However, the U.S. is a democracy and women have the vote. In fact there are more women than men (50.8% female, 49.2% male). If you have a problem with the composition of the elected representatives then you have to pause for a moment and realise that women voted these people into power. They elected them as their representatives and so they delegated to them the power to pass laws on their behalf.

Q1 - Women should be able to choose.
Q2 - If you have a problem with men passing these laws then elect some women!

Finally some food for thought. I live in Japan and an unmarried foreign friend of mine got pregnant. She went to the clinic to get an abortion and was handed a form... which required consent from both the woman AND the man in order to get an abortion. Yup, she couldn't get an abortion unless she got the man's permission too. I was pretty shocked.

I was going to throw my two cents into this, but honestly I'd just be kinda rehashing what was said here.

 

[fulano]

I'm pro-life.

Yes, men should be able to pass these laws. If we are saying that we can't pass these laws because they don't understand then it means that congress basically can't do anything. Most members of congress arn't black men yet they can pass affirmative action laws and laws that affect primarily black communities. Most congress men aren't Mexicans yet they pass laws governing Mexican immigration. Most congress men are white older men yet they pass laws that affect everyone. We can't just say that they don't understand and shouldn't be passing laws because we don't have a congress for each subgroup, we have one congress. More over, it also implies that humans can't understand one another. It implies that men can never understand women and one can never understand the situation of another fully. I refuse to believe that.

You can be pro life and pro choice. And yes, we people can and should understand each other, but it seems weird that stripping individual women of the decision of what to do with their bodies should be held to the consensus of third parties.

Having an abortion is not a cakewalk, but the decision is not up to the dude or someone else in the end b/c it is not his body. Mind you, this does not mean that he should be kept out of the conversation at all, and that women should be making these decisions flippantly and without regard for anyone else's feelings...which they don't do anyways, on average.

People seem to be having this notion that if abortion were legal and up to the woman she would be gleefully aborting left and right, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

[felbot]

of course abortion should be illegal.

I think given the overall weighing of opinion on this forum, that's not an of course at all, thus would you care to explain it to me, purely out of my morbid curiosity of understanding the other side better

OT 1) yes legal, because babies can fuck too many lives, be so unplanned and unwanted and unloved that it's crueller to bring them in then to get rid of something that was never alive (abortion shouldn't be used as a contraceptive tool, rather a last resort, but I do see foetuses and sperm and eggs in the same manner of unaliveness)
2) as others have pointed out, these are elected officials who are trying to represent their constituents, the fact fewer women are involved in being a candidate in the first place is more of an area of concern to me

woah woah woah, i wrote that? oh god this is embarrassing, i misspelled, i meant to say of course it should be legal, i know i am a idiot.
sorry to disappoint.

 

[esperandote]

Yes, men should be able to pass these laws. If we are saying that we can't pass these laws because they don't understand then it means that congress basically can't do anything.

That's a bad comparison. Other laws can be passed while knowledeable on the subject. Anti-abortion laws are passed out of ignorance, the wish to impose religion on others, and hatred. It's impossible to be knowledgeable on the subject of abortion unless one has been there oneself, undergoing rape, unexpected pregnancy, abortion, etc.

Whats the difference between killing someon that has born and killing someone that hasn't born?

One is a crime, the other is delusional talk of 'pro-life' idiots. Duh.

Then all it takes for you to be against abortion is that legislators pass it as a law. If not, then you don't support your own argument.

 

[omega 616]

snip

Ok, lets say circumcision is comparable to abortion ... you can choose to do it if you like (except if you're unfortunate to get born into a Jewish family).

Now you have mainly a female government deciding whether you should be allowed to choose or you can never have it done, except in medical circumstances.

Personally, I say let people choose what is best for them.

I think there are already too many people in the world, there are plenty of unwanted kids in foster homes for example. why add to that number if you don't personally want to have kids but for whatever reason you end up pregnant?

Condom broke? Tough shit, you know have to force another kid into the "system" or find a way to cope.

It's taking away peoples right to choose, I know it's a slippery slope argument but what about if they passed a law requiring everybody to go to church or like the above example you must or must not be circumcised.