What I don't like about FF 6-8.

[Eric the Orange]

It's pretty well known that Final Fantasy fans are generally split between old school fans and new school fans. Old school fans generally will tell you that FF4 or 6 is the best FF. Where as new school fans will say that FF7, 8, or 10 is the best FF.

I understand that these are generalizations, some old school fans like newer FF best. And some new school fans like old FF best.

But I feel left out of the loop because I feel that FF6-8 all lack a certain RPG element that I like in my RPGs.

What it comes down to is that characters in those games lack specific battle roles. every one can attack decently(except Strago), and everyone can use magic decently. And this got more and more noticeable until FF9 were they reverted back to a system that used battle roles. At it's worst in FF8 the characters only battle individuality is there limits. In that game it is particularly noticeable because you could just swap magic and GF sets and you essentially have the same character.

Anyways, I was wondering if I was the only person who felt this way. So what do you FF players think about battle roles in RPGs.

 

[EliteFreq]

FF9 is definatly the best, it was the best bits of the old FFs mixed with the best bits of the newer FFs.

 

[Ultress]

I'm only speaking on FF6 so it could be different for 7/8 but to me it opened up a level of customization though I'll admit teach everyone Ultima is a prudent option. They still retain their battle roles at least up to the the Floating convenient. Anyone could be your healer, your mage,or your fighter( sans maybe Strago and Relm) it was up to the player to decide.

So my point is on at least FF6 I'll respectably disagree with you.

 

[L3m0n_L1m3]

I don't care for any of the FF games, except for 13. Only because it was NOT turn-based combat.

Or was that 7? Whatever, 1 of those 2.

 

[Mysticgamer]

I liked or loved every final fantasy except 8 and 11 which I don't really count as a main series anyway. I like the characters to have specific roles and abilities best. I like battling through a dungeon and finding a mythril helm and giving it to the knight character or whoever can equip it. Now I like 12 too, it's nice that it has versatility. If you want Balthier to stay gunner or bowman you have the choice but I also can't see this being realistic either. Basch I can see being able to wield different types of weapons but Vaan? I have a hard enough time by he can cast magick let alone a broadax.

 

[Eric the Orange]

I'm only speaking on FF6 so it could be different for 7/8 but to me it opened up a level of customization though I'll admit teach everyone Ultima is a prudent option. They still retain their battle roles at least up to the the Floating convenient. Anyone could be your healer, your mage,or your fighter( sans maybe Strago and Relm) it was up to the player to decide.

So my point is on at least FF6 I'll respectably disagree with you.

Well, that is exactly my point, anyone (sans Strago) can fill any roll. level him right and Sabin can be a mage. Hell if you really worked at it Strago could probably do decent melee. Admittedly FF6 is the weakest example of the 3, it's worse in 7 and 8.

 

[Eric the Orange]

I liked or loved every final fantasy except 8 and 11 which I don't really count as a main series anyway.

I think most FF fans feel that the MMO FF's aren't "cannon" so to speak. so that would be 11 and 14 (or maybe it's 13 I'm not sure). It would make more sense if those were FF online and FF online 2.

 

[Victory7]

Final Fantasy on NES was the best. Having to use the included monster poster and world map made the game have a certain charm that hasn't been duplicated since.

 

[Random Argument Man]

Well, I can't really argue with 6 and 7. 6 had some minor difference with some characters. 7 was just materia based.

8 is where things can change. Yes, it wasn't fixed class. Yes, every character could be the same.

However, you decided what kind of character you wanted. You could make a strong warrior, a caster, a balanced guy or create another variation.

The part where it felt the character were different was the limits. Other than that, it all depended on you really.

But anyway, who care? 9 was the best.

 

[stu_thomo]

Does anyone know where to get the old ff's? iv got 7, 10 and 12, but i don't like 12 : / il probably get shouted at by the proper final fantsy fans, but i prefered the game style of 7 and 10 where you went into a fight as it breaks up the game play in a good way instead of just constantly running about. Also there isn't that, in my opinion, shitty gambit system that chains down characters that they have in 12,

 

[Loves2spooge]

It's hard to say really, considering characters and story are a lot of what define FF games, which is why most say VII is the best (though my joint favourites were IX and X). I loved VI for its battle system and story, whereas VIII fuckin' blows; completely hateable characters (with the exception of Rinoa and Laguna; even giving Squall a voice in Dissidia made me instantly dislike him more...).

But to get a little philosophical here; don't feel estranged because those around you don't feel the same, feel comforted in knowing someone in the world does. I hated Final Fantasy XII, but there are people who'll defend it to their last breath (a couple of which are on this very forum; trust me, I've felt their wrath...).

 

[T3chn0s1s]

I... You...

Huh?

Okay, I see what you're saying. If you put sufficient work into any specific character they can fulfill any specific role, and that's what you don't like about the middle ground games. Okay. We're on the same page?

No one character in six, leveled as what you wanted them to be, could then just on the fly be something else. You had to work to switch them up. Hell, you could do the same thing in final fantasy to a degree. Fighter could be a crappy healer, and thief could be a crappy mage. If you pick up the remakes there are so many 'use this to kill the enemy with flare' and 'use this to take everyone to full health' items that every character was every role. I'm assuming this was a flaw in tactics too? Since with enough work everyone in your party could be the same thing. With the generics they even had the same sprite! Yet, they were still their own character...

I'm sorry, I guess I'm missing where having individual characters with their own strengths and weaknesses that you can change if you dislike them is bad, so I can't help you. Then again, you don't want help. You just wanted to say what you don't like about FF 6-8. Which I don't see, because everyone has a battle role. Huh. Weird.

 

[FalloutJack]

Okay, first...a short run on my FF-related feelings.

FF1: Classic.
FF2: Haven't played enough of it.
FF3: Haven't played it.
FF4: Didn't really like it.
FF5: Fun and humorus.
FF6: A good game, but Kefka sucks.
FF7: Nice!
FF8: Crap.
FF9: Good!
FFX: Decent!
FFX-2: Haven't played it.
FF11: Haven't played it.
FF12: Not even done with Tactics yet.
FF13: Eagerly anticipated.

That out of the way, time to talk shop. (Item shop! Er wait...no.)

FalloutJack is made of old school, but he appreciates new school too. So, my determinations on Finaly Fantasy is mixed according to what can endear to me and what can't. For instance, the original game is really old, but it still endures for the flavor.

Whereas FF4 is just...eh. FF4 was a decent adventure I guess, but it lacked real quality. Let's see...the dark knight becomes a paladin, thereby throwing away his useful powers for crap. There are several wizards who are useless until later (and then one of them DIES and the other two turn themselves into stone). There's a bard ('nuff said). You fly a giant whale to the moon and a bullshitty mechanical giant somehow walks down a tower from it. The Four Elemental Fiends suck, and their boss is a plant for a hitherto-unseen stupid-ass boss who NO STORY. Oh, and this was on Earth all along. WHAT?!

FF5, meanwhile, was about a black mage who wants to destroy stuff, and it was brilliant.

FF6 was also great, if you can forgive the fact that the main villain made Liberace look straight and Elton John...also straight. Kefka wasn't so much the villainy type as being like the guy from Silence of the Lambs. "It rubs the lotion on its body or it gets the hose again." he had power and he ran away with it. He's a snarky villain, rather than someone who we actually fear. Unless he's actually fighting us. Then, it's that he has power that's the problem.

FF8 was crap. Just crap. The characters are god-awfully-unlovable and so are the villains. Yes, this was all started because some witch in the future wanted to compress time. Why? No fucking clue. Some villains destroy because they're chaotic and insane, and that makes sense. The sorceress who wouldn't fucking DIE - Way too much HP, yo. - had no point. She already ruled the future and compiling the past into it didn't improve it! Let's see... The system of junctioning creatures and spells to you - the only way to get a fucking edge in the game when every beastie levels up with you - was complicated and annoyingly RESET itself after I had everything the way I wanted it at times. Sorry, but to use the internet jargon, FF8 was FAIL.

The rest I've played, I liked, and that is that.

 

[Eric the Orange]

I... You...

Huh?

Okay, I see what you're saying. If you put sufficient work into any specific character they can fulfill any specific role, and that's what you don't like about the middle ground games. Okay. We're on the same page?

No one character in six, leveled as what you wanted them to be, could then just on the fly be something else. You had to work to switch them up. Hell, you could do the same thing in final fantasy to a degree. Fighter could be a crappy healer, and thief could be a crappy mage. If you pick up the remakes there are so many 'use this to kill the enemy with flare' and 'use this to take everyone to full health' items that every character was every role. I'm assuming this was a flaw in tactics too? Since with enough work everyone in your party could be the same thing. With the generics they even had the same sprite! Yet, they were still their own character...

I'm sorry, I guess I'm missing where having individual characters with their own strengths and weaknesses that you can change if you dislike them is bad, so I can't help you. Then again, you don't want help. You just wanted to say what you don't like about FF 6-8. Which I don't see, because everyone has a battle role. Huh. Weird.

I don't think you understand. Maybe I just played those 3 FFs weird, but there didn't seem to be any dedicated mage classes (white or black). everyone can cast magic and attack at least ok. And that's not with any specific work put into them (once again sans strego). While Sabin is better at melee than magic, he is at least decent at magic. and that's without any specific leveling types.

were as say in FF4 for example only certain characters could learn certain magic. and even Rosa and Rydia didn't get very good melee even by the end of the game. Much less the other mages throughout the game, who would miss like half the time.

 

[Eric the Orange]

Not even done with Tactics yet.

Well that is sad. Where as my complaints in this specific chat are about gameplay rather than story. As far as atmosphere (story, music, art style), FFT is my favorite of any game with FF attached to it.

and BTW the story of FFT is in no way related to that of FF12. FF12, is more related to FFTA and FFTA2. Not really related at all to FFT besides the names of places.

 

[Velocity Eleven]

I've heard this argument a million times, it bugs me cause it's very flawed

it doesnt matter so much how "varied" the "characters" are because the game consists of many entites other than the characters themselves. As long as you have different choices ot make and develop from them I see no problem...

You could make the "lack of variation" argument on any gameplay feature, and usually games that have more variety in characters have less variety in other places. For example, in FF8 all the characters are very similar in their abilities, yet the GFs in FF8 are all far more varied than the summons in FF4... GFs in FF8 have far more options open to them, wheras in FF4 all summons are stuck to the "can be summoned only by Rydia" rule and dont have as many rules applying to them. It is because of FF8's lack of variation in characters that the variation in the GFs is more prominant

The point is that the characters themselves are only a fraction of the gameplay as a whole, you need to look at the whole thing... you need lack of variation in some aspects to increase variation in others

 

[Random Argument Man]

Kefka wasn't so much the villainy type as being like the guy from Silence of the Lambs. "It rubs the lotion on its body or it gets the hose again." he had power and he ran away with it. He's a snarky villain, rather than someone who we actually fear. Unless he's actually fighting us. Then, it's that he has power that's the problem.

Umm...Have the power then ran away with it.....What happened to the Apocalyspe part that he caused?

He also caused genocide, burn towns and used Terra to do his bidding. He did all that for 2 things. 1. He's a nihilist 2. He was laughing and having fun the whole time!

That's one the most evilish villain I've ever seen!

 

[Chancie]

I think I have to agree with you, TC. I never really thought about it before but it makes sense. Admittedly, I've only played FFVIII, X, and XII at this point and I like X's battle system the best and come to think of it, I think that's because each character has a "class." They have assigned abilities (Yuna is healer, Lulu is spell caster, Rikku is thief, etc) and it makes all of them worth using. In FFVIII, I usually got stuck up on using only Squall, Rinoa, and Quistis, and it never mattered because they could all easily be switched around. Same in XII though.

 

[Eric the Orange]

The point is that the characters themselves are only a fraction of the gameplay as a whole, you need to look at the whole thing... you need lack of variation in some aspects to increase variation in others

I don't see why variety of different roles in battle (essentially melee, mage, and healer), is mutually exclusive to there being more variation in other aspects of the battle system.

But really, at least as far as FF games are concerned, character battle roles make up a large portion of battle (with the exception of 8, which as you said focused more on the summons then the characters). I'd say like 90%. Which I guess is a fraction (9/10 to be specific).

I'm thinking about it now and other than summons in the later FFs(they were pretty much just spells in the earlier ones) I can't think of much else that effects battle. Items maybe I guess. Those have been pretty similar in all FF games.

I don't know maybe you can help me. What other things besides character roles go into the battle system?

 

[Velocity Eleven]

What I'm saying is that there needs to be a balance. Not saying they're completely mutually exclusive only that they counter-act each other

the more similar you make the characters the less room there is for the player to work with them. The point is that it is upto the player to strategise and develop in their own way.

What I was saying is that "an entity" is more varied if it is mixed with a group of less varition

So take FF4 for example, all characters are very distinguishable in their gameplay... but because of this the extra entities that they use are all locked together and are therefore less varied

so Summoning in FF4 has very little variation cause they all follow the same "used by Rydia" rule. Wheras in FF8 each GF has their own abilities, which can be mixed and matched to give to whatever character...

of course if FF8 only allowed certain GFs to certain characters, then the the characters become more unique, but the GFs become more varied... (EDIT: ok, that probably didnt make sense)

it has to be balanced, tell me if you understand this

and by the way, FF5 is my favourite battle system