What I want from Rogue One

[happyninja42]

So, after having read this little blurb

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/168929-Rogue-One-A-Star-Wars-Story-no-Sequel

it further reinforces my opinion that this movie might have a 100% body count in the protagonists. Which I really hope is the case. I really, REALLY want to see them all die. Not out of any hatred of the characters, I would just really like them to show how dangerous, and deadly it is, to go up against a galaxy spanning empire bent on total domination, and that billions, if not trillions of beings will die in this war before all is said and done.

Given some particular clips in the trailer, where one character has an expression that just screams "I'm about to stand up and die in a slow motion Blaze of Glory sequence", I think I might be right about this. I'm hoping they all die, and send the data out via a signal transmission or something, and some 3rd party is the one that actually escapes with the data. But all the insertion team dies getting it out. I think that would be a refreshing change for the Star Wars stuff in general, and would, for me personally, make for a better story. Not that "higher body count = better story", but that telling that kind of "no happy ending" kind of story, in Star Wars, would be something new, and I would like to see it.

Though, the realist in me, says that the main lead woman, whose name escapes me at the moment, is probably going to be the sole survivor, and they will end on some shot of her looking out a window, shell shocked from all the people who died to get her to the end credit scene.

But yeah, still, I'm hoping for a They Live kind of ending, with a big "fuck you" finger (or Disney equivalent) to the Empire with her final breath, while the data escapes, and she laughs up at the main antagonist, furious with his failure at stopping the plans getting out.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

telling that kind of "no happy ending" kind of story, in Star Wars, would be something new, and I would like to see it.

Arguably the endings are evenly split between upbeat and somber. Empire, Clones, Revenge and Force are pretty downer.

Anyway, I severely doubt Disney of all companies would bet on something as bold as an "everybody dies" plot. I don't care what they claim about milking Rogue One.

 

[happyninja42]

telling that kind of "no happy ending" kind of story, in Star Wars, would be something new, and I would like to see it.

Arguably the endings are evenly split between upbeat and somber. Empire, Clones, Revenge and Force are pretty downer.

Anyway, I severely doubt Disney of all companies would bet on something as bold as an "everybody dies" plot. I don't care what they claim about milking Rogue One.

I would disagree that the examples you give are "downer" endings. Yes something bad happens, but they all end with 1.Pretty much all of the main cast alive and (mostly) unharmed. 2. A plan going forward on how to win, or simply not having been killed by the badguys, thus escaping their pogrom.

Now granted, you could argue the "but the plans got out, so there is a bit of hope at the end there too", and fair enough, but I mean for our main protagonists. If they all die, it doesn't really matter how it ends, none of them got a happy ending. They all died in the course of their effort.

And yes, I agree, realistically, Disney's probably not going to do that. I just wish they would. xD What I suspect will happen, is that pretty much all of the supporting cast will die, so that the main protagonist can make it to the end and escape with the plans, like I mentioned above. I just, personally, wish they'd kill her too. That this was a genuine suicide mission, that nobody was coming back from.

 

[Fox12]

Well, it would be nice to see the Empire as a credible threat for once, and not just a mass of incompetents.

The only time I can remember them doing anything right was during Hoth, and that's just because they turned God mode on. And they still failed their primary mission.

 

[Saelune]

I think one or two could live, just not the main girl. Hell, let the young girl save the big old dude for once as he delivers the actual plans.

 

[happyninja42]

I think one or two could live, just not the main girl. Hell, let the young girl save the big old dude for once as he delivers the actual plans.

Honestly, I doubt Disney will kill her off. She's too much of a significant character for marketing purposes. If anyone is going to survive, it's likely her. In fact, I think we've seen one of the final shots in the movie. That shot of her limping across a walkway, towards some panel, and that tie fighter shows up in front of her, feels like a "Must...get...to...data! Must...transmit...to..rebellion!" kind of climactic scene, with the return of the villain in the fighter. If that is actually from the climax of the movie, then it would appear that she's alone, thus implying everyone else is dead. I just, personally, hope she has to also die to get the data out. A sliver of me is hopeful with the statement of "No sequels" that, they might take a risk, and tell a genuinely tragic story of the horrors of war, but I'm not entirely convinced myself. This is mostly just me voicing my "dream movie" for how this story could pan out. I doubt it will actually pan out that way, but they still might surprise me.

 

[Saelune]

I think one or two could live, just not the main girl. Hell, let the young girl save the big old dude for once as he delivers the actual plans.

Honestly, I doubt Disney will kill her off. She's too much of a significant character for marketing purposes. If anyone is going to survive, it's likely her. In fact, I think we've seen one of the final shots in the movie. That shot of her limping across a walkway, towards some panel, and that tie fighter shows up in front of her, feels like a "Must...get...to...data! Must...transmit...to..rebellion!" kind of climactic scene, with the return of the villain in the fighter. If that is actually from the climax of the movie, then it would appear that she's alone, thus implying everyone else is dead. I just, personally, hope she has to also die to get the data out. A sliver of me is hopeful with the statement of "No sequels" that, they might take a risk, and tell a genuinely tragic story of the horrors of war, but I'm not entirely convinced myself. This is mostly just me voicing my "dream movie" for how this story could pan out. I doubt it will actually pan out that way, but they still might surprise me.

Meh, I actually have decent confidence she will actually die. Disney is actually doing diversity pretty well I think. Its the one thing the new Star Wars movie did right.

And I mean, the suicide mission plot is nothing new, and usually its not the main character who lives, but some side character, perhaps one who has issues with the hero but then they get eachother or some such.

Or Jun lives cause he got to protect Halsey. Either way, I feel atleast 80% sure she will die.

 

[happyninja42]

Either she dies or she, metaphorically, disappears into the sunset, leaving it all behind, never to be seen again. I'd be fine with either outcome. What else could happen to her, to not appear in the original trilogy?

She could in theory be part of some other rebellion squad, that were doing all kinds of things at the same time the trilogy heroes are doing their thing. I mean, the movies never tell us about any details of any of their other efforts against the Empire, so it's entirely possible she survives, and is simply another agent for the Rebellion. There's nothing saying she has to become some leader of the Rebellion, just because she was an effective agent in the field on one mission. Hell, it's more likely, that they would be like "hey, you're really good at sneaking into Imperial facilities and getting important information out! We're going to send you back out to do that again over at this place, and then over here, etc etc."

Though, to give some credit to one theory I've heard, she could always end up joining the Empire, as some people think. Which would explain why we don't see her again. I personally doubt this, but it's possible.

 

[Zontar]

Empire, Clones, Revenge and Force are pretty downer.

How did Force have a downer ending? The Empire literal knock off Empire that is worst then the original in every way has been crippled, the main antagonist has been both beaten and humiliated (thus making it impossible for him to ever be taken seriously as a threat again), the 'good guys' won and the mission at the end was a success after only 30 seconds.

The only downer in it was arguable when the only named character died and planets we literally don't care about to any degree blew up, and neither happened at the ending.

This all being said, I hope Rogue One has the balls to kill off the cast. And I'd also like us to finally get to see Imperial Infantry units. We've never seen them on screen (hell I don't even think they've been shown on Rebels) so it's about time they get some love. The Space Wehrmacht should at least get some lip service instead of the Space SS getting it all again.

 

[happyninja42]

How did Force have a downer ending? The Empire literal knock off Empire that is worst then the original in every way has been crippled, the main antagonist has been both beaten and humiliated (thus making it impossible for him to ever be taken seriously as a threat again), the 'good guys' won and the mission at the end was a success after only 30 seconds.

yes, because being beaten, and that generating increased feelings of hate and rage...in a Dark Side user, totally couldn't result in him becoming more powerful as he "completes his training" as Snoke said. Are you seriously trying to say "well, he was beaten once, so he will never be a threat again." ? When he was a novice in the Dark Side, and will continue to learn more, just like Rey will of the Light Side? I mean, I get that you clearly don't like the character, that's obvious in your statement, but that's not the same thing as the character no longer being a threat.

You could easily say the same thing about Luke at the end of Empire, he was beaten, humiliated, maimed, and had to run away to survive facing the antagonist. And yeeeeet, he came back in Return, more powerful, more of a threat, and ended up defeating the person who defeated him before. So, yeah, I fail to see how Kylo Ren is incapable of the same growth that you seem to think he is denied.

 

[Zontar]

yes, because being beaten, and that generating increased feelings of hate and rage...in a Dark Side user, totally couldn't result in him becoming more powerful as he "completes his training" as Snoke said

After a lifetime of training he got beaten by a normie and a starving scavenger who never touched a sword in her life. That's the type of defeat the protagonist goes through to show just how outmatched he is (constant training being effortlessly beaten by a novice). It not only feels like the scene was written with the characters flipped and they accidentally filmed it the wrong way, that actually makes more sense then assuming they make it intentionally that way.

Are you seriously trying to say "well, he was beaten once, so he will never be a threat again." ?

No I'm making the observation that his character has been written so poorly in itself and in relation to those around it that recovery is no longer possible. He's no longer a threat, he's a joke, and unless they're bringing out a new antagonist for Episode 8 there will be no tension in seeing him get his ass kicked again.

You could easily say the same thing about Luke at the end of Empire, he was beaten, humiliated, maimed, and had to run away to survive facing the antagonist. And yeeeeet, he came back in Return, more powerful, more of a threat, and ended up defeating the person who defeated him before. So, yeah, I fail to see how Kylo Ren is incapable of the same growth that you seem to think he is denied.

I think the part you're forgetting is the fact that Luke was the protagonist who between movies finished his training to become a knight, and in the final battle was on the loosing end until he gave in to his anger and fear. He caught Vader off guard and by surprise, using the momentary lack of focus to get the upper hand. In a straight up fight he would have lost, and it was only because he momentarily abandoned everything he stood for that he turned things around. Which was why he refused to strike Vader down when he had the chance, instead resigning himself to his fate.

Kylo on the other hand is the antagonist who is supposed to be the one who would easily win such a fight (and when one looks at in on paper there's nothing that should have allowed him to loose given how he had literally every advantage). Unless he's going to be the main character in the movie who's training is half the screentime, his replicating the situation with Luke (only for the dark side) simply isn't going to happen. Though given what TFA showed us my expectations for the Disney Star Wars movies in terms of writing are so low even the prequels look halfway decent (their latest one was written by a man who thinks human supremacy = white supremacy. That's a special type of stupid).

 

[Barbas]

We got the A New Hope reboot, so yes, time for The Empire Strikes Back again. Come on, death, baby, don't let me down!

 

[Sniper Team 4]

What you want is what actually happened in the original version of the story. In the Han Solo Trilogy (part of the Expanded Universe and no longer canon), the team that manages to transmit the plans to Leia gets wiped out. Bria, the leader of the team, actually kills herself once she sends the plans out because she doesn't want to risk being captured. The rest of her unit died holding of the Imperials while she completed the transmission.
Do I think Disney will follow this path? No. There's going to be a body count for sure, and while I too would like to see them all bite the dust, as people have said, it's Disney: they probably aren't going to risk going that dark. I am curious to see who will make it out alive though.

Well, it would be nice to see the Empire as a credible threat for once, and not just a mass of incompetents.

The only time I can remember them doing anything right was during Hoth, and that's just because they turned God mode on. And they still failed their primary mission.

I would remind you of the opening of A New Hope. Stormtroopers blast their way through a narrow passage, completely covered by blaster fire, and not only do they manage to pus through, but they only lose two men. A third one is killed later when they round a corner, and a fourth is killed by Leia. Meanwhile, they gun down dozens of Rebel soldiers without breaking a sweat.
It's only when they go up against characters with plot armor that they suck.

 

[Fox12]

What you want is what actually happened in the original version of the story. In the Han Solo Trilogy (part of the Expanded Universe and no longer canon), the team that manages to transmit the plans to Leia gets wiped out. Bria, the leader of the team, actually kills herself once she sends the plans out because she doesn't want to risk being captured. The rest of her unit died holding of the Imperials while she completed the transmission.
Do I think Disney will follow this path? No. There's going to be a body count for sure, and while I too would like to see them all bite the dust, as people have said, it's Disney: they probably aren't going to risk going that dark. I am curious to see who will make it out alive though.

Well, it would be nice to see the Empire as a credible threat for once, and not just a mass of incompetents.

The only time I can remember them doing anything right was during Hoth, and that's just because they turned God mode on. And they still failed their primary mission.

I would remind you of the opening of A New Hope. Stormtroopers blast their way through a narrow passage, completely covered by blaster fire, and not only do they manage to pus through, but they only lose two men. A third one is killed later when they round a corner, and a fourth is killed by Leia. Meanwhile, they gun down dozens of Rebel soldiers without breaking a sweat.
It's only when they go up against characters with plot armor that they suck.

That may be the case, but I don't think a thirty second clip is enough to establish them as a credible threat when they drop the ball at every single opportunity. I mean, it's basically a meme at this point. The storm troopers are just cannon fodder. If Vaders not there, then it doesn't get done. It doesn't help that Disney's many spinoffs now play this off for laughs.

 

[Zontar]

That may be the case, but I don't think a thirty second clip is enough to establish them as a credible threat when they drop the ball at every single opportunity. I mean, it's basically a meme at this point. The storm troopers are just cannon fodder. If Vaders not there, then it doesn't get done. It doesn't help that Disney's many spinoffs now play this off for laughs.

Which is all too bad, the Stormtroopers are supposed to be the elite troopers of the Empire, literally the SS analogue. You don't send them in to just any battle.

 

[happyninja42]

That may be the case, but I don't think a thirty second clip is enough to establish them as a credible threat when they drop the ball at every single opportunity. I mean, it's basically a meme at this point. The storm troopers are just cannon fodder. If Vaders not there, then it doesn't get done. It doesn't help that Disney's many spinoffs now play this off for laughs.

Faceless Mooks dying by the hundreds to a handful of Main Characters is hardly a trope unique to Star Wars. Pretty much any story with a large enemy force does this. They have to, by simple nature of plot armor, end up looking inept, because in no scenario, in reality, will a group of a hundred or so troops with high training, lose to 4 people with pluck and gumption on their side. But you can't kill the protagonists, because then the story is over. So yeah, they survive, and by comparison, it now makes the "threat" look less threatening. The only way you can negate this, is never have the heroes actually fight them. Every time the troopers show up on screen, have them run. No question, no standing out in the middle of a hangar bay, blindly firing a rifle at them while they get into a row and shoot back, no charging down a hall, screaming like a lunatic at them. You run, simple as that. Never, EVER fight them. Then, they at least can maintain the illusion of genuine threat. Maybe show them slaughtering nameless mooks from the good guy side, and doing it with ease. But as soon as they go up against the Hero's Band, and are thus beaten, the faceless mooks start to lose credibility. That's just how the Faceless Mook trope works. *shrugs* nothing to be done about it.

 

[happyninja42]

yes, because being beaten, and that generating increased feelings of hate and rage...in a Dark Side user, totally couldn't result in him becoming more powerful as he "completes his training" as Snoke said

After a lifetime of training he got beaten by a normie and a starving scavenger who never touched a sword in her life. That's the type of defeat the protagonist goes through to show just how outmatched he is (constant training being effortlessly beaten by a novice). It not only feels like the scene was written with the characters flipped and they accidentally filmed it the wrong way, that actually makes more sense then assuming they make it intentionally that way.

You mean like how Darth Vader, the most gifted pilot, with decades of combat experience behind the stick, as well as years of Force training, was unable to shoot a starving vapor farmer kid from behind quickly enough to keep him from blowing up the Death Star? A kid that had never flown an X-Wing before in his life, and likely had never experienced zero g combat at all? A plucky, normie kid like that? And he gets tricked by a has been smuggler and didn't just dodge out of the way? He was the best starfighter in the galaxy, and yet some newbies beat him. By your logic, Vader should never have been seen as a threat again, after he was laughingly punked from behind, and sent off drifting into space like some guy who's car spun out of control. And yet he was plenty threatening in later movies.

No I'm making the observation that his character has been written so poorly in itself and in relation to those around it that recovery is no longer possible. He's no longer a threat, he's a joke, and unless they're bringing out a new antagonist for Episode 8 there will be no tension in seeing him get his ass kicked again.

I fail to see the difference in how Vader was treated in New Hope, to the way Kylo was treated in Awakens. Shock of shocks, the antagonist is defeated by the end of the climactic battle. That's kind of what the antagonist is there for. He's supposed to be beaten, usually by someone with less experience than him. And I would point out, that Kylo was already shot in the stomach, reeling from the shock of the previous significant death, and had his arm cut by Finn with a saber. So he was already very beat down by the time she got to him. It's not like he went into the fight 100% fresh and she just went "lul, pwned, k, thxbye" It took a serious of scenes, 3 in total, with him being wounded in each, before he was finally defeated.

Kylo on the other hand is the antagonist who is supposed to be the one who would easily win such a fight (and when one looks at in on paper there's nothing that should have allowed him to loose given how he had literally every advantage).

Yes, the afore mentioned gut wound from a bowcaster, a weapon that apparently is strong enough to blow up mook stormtroopers, and fling their bodies 20 yards in a massive explosion. Him, it didn't kill him, but it screwed him up. That afore mentioned emotional turmoil from killing someone important, which didn't help his combat focus at all. And the arm wound from Finn. So many advantages, and zero handicaps! xD

Unless he's going to be the main character in the movie who's training is half the screentime, his replicating the situation with Luke (only for the dark side) simply isn't going to happen. Though given what TFA showed us my expectations for the Disney Star Wars movies in terms of writing are so low even the prequels look halfway decent (their latest one was written by a man who thinks human supremacy = white supremacy. That's a special type of stupid).

I think he's very likely going to be a significant character int he overall arc. It seems to be heavily implied that he's going to have a redemptive arc over the course of the trilogy. The whole "I feel the call to the Light" thing. That his redemption, and return to the good side, is going to be a major plot of the story. So yeah, that would put him in the, eventual, protagonist camp. I don't think they're going to 100% Vader him up, and have him die to save Rey, but I think he will eventually turn his back on Snoke, and reject his teachings.

 

[Zontar]

You mean like how Darth Vader, the most gifted pilot, with decades of combat experience behind the stick, as well as years of Force training, was unable to shoot a starving vapor farmer kid from behind quickly enough to keep him from blowing up the Death Star? A kid that had never flown an X-Wing before in his life, and likely had never experienced zero g combat at all? A plucky, normie kid like that? And he gets tricked by a has been smuggler and didn't just dodge out of the way? He was the best starfighter in the galaxy, and yet some newbies beat him. By your logic, Vader should never have been seen as a threat again, after he was laughingly punked from behind, and sent off drifting into space like some guy who's car spun out of control. And yet he was plenty threatening in later movies.

Luke wasn't starving, he wasn't depicted as struggling to put enough food on his place to not starve, unlike someone else (who knew trying to flesh out a character would brake believably?). In any event though, he was the best fighter pilot in the galaxy... decades earlier. Take a look at the real world fighter pilots of different air forces. Everyone is in their 20s or early 30s. Vader, a man in his 50s, was far past his prime for piloting, and he had long been a ground commander by that point. He didn't get the living daylights beaten out of him like another space emo did.

I fail to see the difference in how Vader was treated in New Hope, to the way Kylo was treated in Awakens.

You mean appart from the air of mystery that Vader had that they only had for Kylo for 5 minutes before destroying, the fact he was threatening until the end (instead of for only 5 minutes), the fact it was only at the end his plan was foiled (instead of at every turn), the fact he actually accomplished something, the fact he was actually good at fighting (instead of getting his ass handed to him by people who have never trained a day in their life), the fact that he wasn't a laughing stock (seriously I don't know one person irl who didn't laugh at him for all the wrong reasons) amongst others?

Kylo being a cheap low quality knockoff of Vader in-universe is probably the most unintentionally poetic thing about both him and TFA in general: it's a soulless, low quality attempt to recapture the original that fails on every level.

Yes, the afore mentioned gut wound from a bowcaster, a weapon that apparently is strong enough to blow up mook stormtroopers, and fling their bodies 20 yards in a massive explosion. Him, it didn't kill him, but it screwed him up. That afore mentioned emotional turmoil from killing someone important, which didn't help his combat focus at all. And the arm wound from Finn. So many advantages, and zero handicaps! xD

So an injury that's the most realistic one ever depicted in the entire franchise, coupled with something that for a dark side force user gives him strength are enough to make his literal lifetime of training bring him down to the level of a normie and a starving scavenger who has never held a sword before. I'm going to be frank, even with that injury he really shouldn't have had any chance of loosing without fowl play. Then again he wa fighting a Mary Sue (number of people who have successfully argued Ray isn't one: 0) so I suppose they did need to write in a massive handicap that was much larger then it realistically would have been. Still absolutely horrendous writing, character derailment and tension destroying moments in movie history. It's one of the many, many, many reasons why I'm not watching a numbered Star Wars movie in theatres for at least a decade.

I think he's very likely going to be a significant character int he overall arc. It seems to be heavily implied that he's going to have a redemptive arc over the course of the trilogy. The whole "I feel the call to the Light" thing. That his redemption, and return to the good side, is going to be a major plot of the story. So yeah, that would put him in the, eventual, protagonist camp. I don't think they're going to 100% Vader him up, and have him die to save Rey, but I think he will eventually turn his back on Snoke, and reject his teachings.

They're going to have to do a shit ton of streamlining then, because TFA opened way too many plot threads and introduced far too many characters with questions that the movies make clear will get an answer at some point. Not that I'll be lining up to see it. The soul is gone from these movies from the looks of it. The real reason I'm waiting for Rogue One is to see if TFA was a bad one-off or a sign of things to come.