What I want from Rogue One

[Chanticoblues]

I just want Jiang Wen to be cool. My expectations are low otherwise.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

After a lifetime of training he got beaten by a normie and a starving scavenger who never touched a sword in her life. That's the type of defeat the protagonist goes through to show just how outmatched he is (constant training being effortlessly beaten by a novice). It not only feels like the scene was written with the characters flipped and they accidentally filmed it the wrong way, that actually makes more sense then assuming they make it intentionally that way.

I figured it had more to do with him having been shot by a fucking bowcaster five minutes beforehand.

Master swordsman or not, it's hard to do much of anything with a sucking chest wound.

 

[Zhukov]

In any event though, he was the best fighter pilot in the galaxy... decades earlier. Take a look at the real world fighter pilots of different air forces. Everyone is in their 20s or early 30s. Vader, a man in his 50s, was far past his prime for piloting, and he had long been a ground commander by that point. He didn't get the living daylights beaten out of him like another space emo did.

I find it interesting when people will cheerfully handwave explanations for Kylo Vs Rey all day long then immediately turn around and run a mental obstacle course to justify Vader Vs Luke.

Kylo being a cheap low quality knockoff of Vader in-universe is probably the most unintentionally poetic thing about both him...

You realize that was intentional on the part of the movie's makers, right?

They knew they didn't have a chance of making something more iconic than Vader, so they made a villain who is desperately trying to live up to Vader. (There's a similar thing going on with the new heroes breathlessly worshiping the old ones.)

Whether or not that actually constitutes good film making I leave to your no doubt excellent judgement, I don't really have an opinion on the matter.

No I'm making the observation that his character has been written so poorly in itself and in relation to those around it that recovery is no longer possible. He's no longer a threat, he's a joke, and unless they're bringing out a new antagonist for Episode 8 there will be no tension in seeing him get his ass kicked again.

Do you think Kylo is going to remain an antagonist for the whole series?

Once again, I have no particular position or desire here, but it seems like they were heavily foreshadowing something else in store for him.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Kylo being a cheap low quality knockoff of Vader in-universe is probably the most unintentionally poetic thing about both him...

You realize that was intentional on the part of the movie's makers, right?

I thought that touch was brilliant. He takes off the helmet, you're expecting a hardass Sith Lord, and instead you get a dorky adolescent who's thoroughly unintimidating without his Revan mask and voice modulator. It's the smartest part of the film, because it's both an admission that no-one is really going to live up to Vader, no matter how hard they try, and because it makes sense in the context of the prequels - Anakin Skywalker was a moody little ***** before his cybernetic upgrade made it easy to be stoic and intimidating.

Kylo is more like his grandfather than he thinks, but not in the way he wants. I thought it was genius.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

After a lifetime of training he got beaten by a normie and a starving scavenger who never touched a sword in her life. That's the type of defeat the protagonist goes through to show just how outmatched he is (constant training being effortlessly beaten by a novice). It not only feels like the scene was written with the characters flipped and they accidentally filmed it the wrong way, that actually makes more sense then assuming they make it intentionally that way.

I think you're being very generous as counting that scene being the one where Kylo Ren lost all his villain cred; because to me that happened about half an hour previous where he made the dire mistake of taking his mask off. I could almost see the ghost of Darth Vader standing behind him, imploring him to not do that.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

After a lifetime of training he got beaten by a normie and a starving scavenger who never touched a sword in her life. That's the type of defeat the protagonist goes through to show just how outmatched he is (constant training being effortlessly beaten by a novice). It not only feels like the scene was written with the characters flipped and they accidentally filmed it the wrong way, that actually makes more sense then assuming they make it intentionally that way.

I figured it had more to do with him having been shot by a fucking bowcaster five minutes beforehand.

Master swordsman or not, it's hard to do much of anything with a sucking chest wound.

I too thought that was pretty obvious. The whole damn movie they were showing off how powerful Chewie's bowcaster is, that Kylo Ren didn't disintegrate is an indicator of his Force power. It might not make that much sense, but this is the Force we are talking about.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Keeping it on track, I want to see more visceral gun battles. WW2 movie cinematography with just blaster rifles and pistols.

I might be weird for saying this, but the blasters were always cooler to me than the lightsabers. Now I get I'm probably a minority in that regard, but the lightsaber kind of seems ... weirdly unoriginal. I get Han Solo's pistol design was derived from German arms, as were many of the Empire's weapons tech ... but that made it charming to me.

While the lightsaber stands out, it really doesn't work well with the aesthetic of the rest of the weapons.

Not only that but the blasters were infinitely more varied than the handful of different lightsabers you see across all three of the original films. To put it bluntly I feel people fell in love with the concept, not the vehicle of it. If you just look at an unactivated lightsaber, unless you religiously watch Star Wars it's hard to remember which one of the characters it belongs to. You rely on colour, not design aesthetic. This is particularly true if you include the prequels.

On the flipside of this it's easy to pick out Han Solo's blaster, because it has iconic design. Both in historical context and in its marriage with science fiction. You don't need to see it in action to know Han's blaster.

Frankly this looks cooler to me than any lightsaber.

Spoiler: Can't lie, this looks far more awesome ...

Spoiler: and this....

Spoiler: looks a million times cooler than this ...

The guns tell a story. The lightsaber looks like some sex toy made from plumbing supplies... I mean that brass bit beneath the emitter totally looks like the thing I had to replace on one of my taps...

Frankly a prop should be able to tell you about the character. And those guns can tell a better story about where a character has been, what a character has had to do, than any lightsaber can. Which is part of the problem I have with lightsabers to begin with. If it were an actual blade that might be different. Which is perhaps why some of the new lightsaber types look downright ridiculous.

It wouldn't have been bad if you just had a physical sword with a physical blade ... because then you could have various fuller types, various edge types, various weights, lengths, and so on. Or the edge could be chipped, it could be rusty in some parts, it could have dried blood on it because the characer never bothers to clean it, it could have words engraved into it, it could have a warped and dullened edge. Even when the sword isn't flashing around, you can decorate the scabbard (that people will actually see), or it might not even have a proper scabbard, just a loop of leather. Regardless of what is there ... it's large enough that all of its physical dimensions become part of the character. A part of the mythos about the character.

To me, it would have been cooler if Kenobi presented a real sword to Luke. A battleworn saber covered in dust. With a dried, patchwork scabbard. You could have sci-fi sensibilities with it, but a real, physical sword would have instantly told you not only about how his father was effectively a warrior monk, but that he had seen gratuitous volumes of combat. You could have seen it in gouged metal on the blade. A couple of chips along the edge, or a battered chappe and cross-guard.

Felt like a lost opportunity.

And this would have solved so many problems if they just had sci-fi'd (to coin a word) swords in the orginal movies. You could still make them as dangerous, deflect blasters and so on.

There's limited things you can do with a lightsaber beyond change the hue.

 

[Zontar]

I find it interesting when people will cheerfully handwave explanations for Kylo Vs Rey all day long then immediately turn around and run a mental obstacle course to justify Vader Vs Luke.

You mean the fight between Vader and Luke where Vader was toying with him the entire time, and turned this around the moment he started taking the fight seriously? It's actually because of this fact I honestly think the Kylo vs Rey fight had the characters mixed up, because her turning it around was a complete asspull in context, but if the characters had been switched around given it happened after Kylo failed to turn her it would have made sense as him seemingly loosing only to then turn things around and manage to not kill her because of outside forces.

Basic story telling techniques. If you're going to throw them out at least bring in something that's equally good instead of a downgrade.

You realize that was intentional on the part of the movie's makers, right?

Yes I do, but a badly done character intentionally being made badly doesn't change the fact it's a badly made character.

Personally I would have preferred Admiral Thrawn, but hell even General Hucks seemed a pretty interesting antagonist by comparison.

Do you think Kylo is going to remain an antagonist for the whole series?

Once again, I have no particular position or desire here, but it seems like they were heavily foreshadowing something else in store for him.

Probably not to the end, they'll give him something to redeem himself with and then either kill him off or send him into exile. But with how many characters they've got in the numbered movies going their own stories, I don't see how they can handle it well, especially given how they're already one movie into this trilogy.

 

[Zontar]

I figured it had more to do with him having been shot by a fucking bowcaster five minutes beforehand.

Master swordsman or not, it's hard to do much of anything with a sucking chest wound.

Yet he seemed perfectly fine fighting afterwards. Injury or not he's a Sith knight fighting against a janitor turned infantry and a starving scavenger who's never held a sword before. Even with his injuries the fight should have still been one-sided in his favour.

 

[Zontar]

After a lifetime of training he got beaten by a normie and a starving scavenger who never touched a sword in her life. That's the type of defeat the protagonist goes through to show just how outmatched he is (constant training being effortlessly beaten by a novice). It not only feels like the scene was written with the characters flipped and they accidentally filmed it the wrong way, that actually makes more sense then assuming they make it intentionally that way.

I think you're being very generous as counting that scene being the one where Kylo Ren lost all his villain cred; because to me that happened about half an hour previous where he made the dire mistake of taking his mask off. I could almost see the ghost of Darth Vader standing behind him, imploring him to not do that.

That scene ruined the character, true, but he still had the fact he was a Sith knight going for him. The fight scene just took away what little menace he had left.

 

[Zontar]

Can we have a thread about anything star wars without it devolving into the same tired argument about how Rey is too good at something the movie heavily hinted she had skills at.

I mean fuck how long as this been out and how many times have we had this discussion.

We've had this argument since the movie came out, because the movie made a character portrayed as a starving scavenger as being a better pilot then elites born and raised to do so on her explicit first try, the ability to use the Force at a level comparable to a Jedi Master on the first day she knew it even existed, being a better marksmen then born and raised soldiers, and being a better mechanic then a man who's been doing maintenance longer then she's been alive (amongst other things).

The real issue though isn't that she's a Mary Sue, it's the fact so many pretend she isn't or try to pretend she's comparable to Luke.

 

[twistedmic]

We've had this argument since the movie came out, because the movie made a character portrayed as a starving scavenger as being a better pilot then elites born and raised to do so on her explicit first try, the ability to use the Force at a level comparable to a Jedi Master on the first day she knew it even existed, being a better marksmen then born and raised soldiers, and being a better mechanic then a man who's been doing maintenance longer then she's been alive (amongst other things).

The real issue though isn't that she's a Mary Sue, it's the fact so many pretend she isn't or try to pretend she's comparable to Luke.

The only thing Rey really fixed better than Han was the compressor that was installed after Han lost the Falcon. And she fixed that by ripping the damned thing out

 

[Zontar]

The only thing Rey really fixed better than Han was the compressor that was installed after Han lost the Falcon. And she fixed that by ripping the damned thing out

And the woman who spent her days scavenging parts to sell as scrap who never touched a spaceship knew that... how?

 

[Zontar]

Her piloting skills were called out as improbable by the movie itself, and serve as the first hint that she's more than she appears to be.

There's no information that says force persuasion is a master level ability.

She's a protagonist in a Star Wars movie facing against storm troopers. It's the entire genre.

She's a scavenger selling parts for food. Working parts are worth more food. She's had her entire life with nothing else to do but teach herself how to fix broken shit.

The entire movie is about how Rey is more than just a scavenger. It's her entire arc.

So piloting skills that are never explained and come from nowhere (which is not something that is related to the force), the ability to use different force techniques she doesn't even know exists perfectly (persuasion was just the most egregious, but not the only one), the troopers acting like episode 4 and 5's "we've been ordered to only make it look real but to let them get away" only with it being a serious attempt to kill her (note that the only time the Troopers ever lost a real fight was against local gorilla forces and not the rebellion proper), and all this coupled with an assumption that she thought herself to fix things (even though as a scavenger she'd be more likely to sell broken but repairable parts then to fix them), and what you're left with is still a Mary Sue who is a poorly written character in a poorly written movie.

 

[Frankster]

Glad i'm not the only one hoping for 100% insertion team casualty rate.

I would only echo others opinion so to sum up, want empire not being comically ineffective and would be a nice change to see rebels actually struggling against imperials so when they do succeed their mission it would feel like they triumphed against impossible odds.

Can we have a thread about anything star wars without it devolving into the same tired argument about how Rey is too good at something the movie heavily hinted she had skills at.

Heavily hinted at? Please remind me of the many times it was mentioned how she got her flight experience (pro tip: it was only mentioned in the novelization).
Listen guys if you really don't want this conversation, just agree from now on my version of things is the right one and you all conform to it and we never argue about this again!
No...? Worth a shot.

You mean like how Darth Vader, the most gifted pilot, with decades of combat experience behind the stick, as well as years of Force training, was unable to shoot a starving vapor farmer kid from behind quickly enough to keep him from blowing up the Death Star? A kid that had never flown an X-Wing before in his life, and likely had never experienced zero g combat at all? A plucky, normie kid like that? And he gets tricked by a has been smuggler and didn't just dodge out of the way? He was the best starfighter in the galaxy, and yet some newbies beat him. By your logic, Vader should never have been seen as a threat again, after he was laughingly punked from behind, and sent off drifting into space like some guy who's car spun out of control. And yet he was plenty threatening in later movies.

Feel the need to correct things a bit here.
Now for the record just because i'm about to go star wars nerd on ya, doesn't mean i don't agree with some of what you say.
Darth Vader taken out the way he was+taking so damned long to target luke after both his escorts were down takes some explanation to justify and i have been trying to explain those things long before TFA.
The bit i take offence with is portraying luke and han as noob pilots. They weren't, well maybe Han, but there was more then quite a bit of hinting and outright saying that luke is a wannabe hotshot pilot in the making:
You are told multiple times in the film about Luke's antics flying high speed vehicles in stupidly dangerous situations such as narrow quarters (sure gonna be handy later on in the film!) and even before i knew much about star wars and had just watched the films, the name "beggars canyon" conveys a rather precise idea i hope you'll agree.
Another thing that is mentioned is that he flies a t83 skyhopper or w/e the number is (i keep getting it wrong) which is shown in prop model form in a deleted scene (the point is even if they don't show the toy, it shows they knew what a t83 skyhopper was and it isn't something fans retroactively explained and added to cannon), and you can see it's a spaceship very similar to the xwing.
Heck there's even a scene where he gets mad because he can't follow his friend biggs as a pilot in the imperial academy, to further nail his wannabe space ace side.

So there's quite a bit of chekovs guns (i think that's right?) at work here and the makers did very clearly have the picture that luke had prior flying and daredevil piloting experience.
And yet despite all this buildup, luke doesn't even do that well. He almost kills himself due to his over eagerness and his trench run only is succesful thanks to his two escorts shielding him and han coming back to save him, several other pilots performed better then Luke did but ultimately they didn't survive.

For Han though i don't think we are ever informed much about his piloting skills, even though the now defunct extended universe made him out to be one of the best non force user pilots around but regardless, him getting the drop on vader continues to be one of the big "dafuq" moments in the original trilogy as far as i'm concerned. Every time i feel i got a semi plausible explanation, some other finds holes in it :/ /nerdrant over

120% agree with your views on how to make mooks not feel so useless. Really in a practical situation when your life is at risk, would any sane person really stay around to real life laser tag with professional soldiers who outnumber them by a massive margin?
Heck no, you'd GTFO. Feeling like it's perfectly safe to stay around and kill a few soldiers sure does emphasize how little of a threat they are to the characters survival xD

 

[Zontar]

Kylo being a cheap low quality knockoff of Vader in-universe is probably the most unintentionally poetic thing about both him...

You realize that was intentional on the part of the movie's makers, right?

I thought that touch was brilliant. He takes off the helmet, you're expecting a hardass Sith Lord, and instead you get a dorky adolescent who's thoroughly unintimidating without his Revan mask and voice modulator. It's the smartest part of the film, because it's both an admission that no-one is really going to live up to Vader, no matter how hard they try, and because it makes sense in the context of the prequels - Anakin Skywalker was a moody little ***** before his cybernetic upgrade made it easy to be stoic and intimidating.

Kylo is more like his grandfather than he thinks, but not in the way he wants. I thought it was genius.

^ This

We often get too many edgy, dark villains whom look threatening but with no substance or material to stand behind. Yea they're cool from a visual standpoint, but where's the meat? The realism? I know it's a fantasy / scifi themed movie but having our Sith Lord as a wannabe Darth Vader fan boy with much to learn / grasp was way better. He uses technology and a mask to make himself menacing but take that away and he's ... human. Not even '1 Man Army Rambo' kind of guy but a regular dude with issues, whom so happens to be blessed with Jedi powers. I liked the concept way more and I can't wait to see him again in the future movies.

You know I'll grant this, if the movie had a better writer and it had actually been pulled off well, I may have liked it, and hell maybe with a protagonist who wasn't too perfect in every way being the one against that villain (and so bland I thought a secondary character was the real protagonist for over a month after the movie) I may have liked it. Too bad Abrams was the one writing this glorified fanfiction that gives the prequels a run for their money in terms of how lacking the cohesion of the plot is.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

I figured it had more to do with him having been shot by a fucking bowcaster five minutes beforehand.

Master swordsman or not, it's hard to do much of anything with a sucking chest wound.

Yet he seemed perfectly fine fighting afterwards. Injury or not he's a Sith knight fighting against a janitor turned infantry and a starving scavenger who's never held a sword before. Even with his injuries the fight should have still been one-sided in his favour.

I don't get it, dude - one minute you're saying he was underperforming, the next you're saying that he was perfectly fine. Which is it?

And you're being a little hard on Finn and Rey. Finn was still a stormtrooper, so he's at least gone to boot camp. And Rey has spent her entire life since childhood beating off larger, meaner scavengers with a stick.

Uh...that came out wrong. I meant that she was hitting them with the stick. Not...yeah.

Look, it didn't bother me that much that she beats Kylo. It's both a wake-up call to the villain and his inherited sense of entitled superiority, and it's adequately foreshadowed with Rey being a fairly fit-looking lady who was shown beating up dudes on Jakku and Kylo being, you know, shot with a bowcaster five minutes ago. Shit, he probably hasn't even had a decent sword duel in years. He's just been force-choking people and growling.

No, the dumb part was how the Rebels got away scot-free with blowing up an entire weaponised planet, which appeared to house most of the First Order's civilization...and all those other conscripted stormtroopers, who are in the exact same boat Finn was a week ago. I mean, that's like glassing North Korea with nuclear weapons because they bombed Seoul.

[sub]And people still said Man of Steel was the more depressing movie! At least Man of Steel presented its wanton collateral damage as a bad thing! Every time the Rebels blow up a moon's worth of people, they start cheering![/sub]