What is being homophobic?

[Abomination]

Heterosexuality is sexual attraction towards, and only towards, the opposite gender.

Well, in that case, most heterosexuals aren't heterosexuals and most homosexuals aren't actually homosexuals. I'm attracted to some women who are beautiful. Plenty of straight men are attracted to men they find good looking. You can find someone of the same-sex attractive and not be gay. You seem to be pretty uptight about sex and sexuality.

SEXUAL attraction. I can find a male attractive, I can see how a woman or homosexual man would find him sexually attractive. This does not mean I am sexually attracted towards a man. This does not mean I want to become sexually active with that man.

I just find it absurd that the fact I do not enjoy watching two homosexual men have a clearly romantic kiss with one another as something that, according to 101flyboy, is wrong with me. One might as well say there is something wrong with finding a certain type of cheese disgusting.

You keep making a big deal of basic affection. You'll have to ask yourself why. It's not about you ENJOYING two guys kissing, either. I never said you needed to enjoy it. No-one said you had to be attracted to the same-sex or be completely neutral towards same-sex kissing. Being so defensive isn't a good thing.[/quote]Defensive? You're telling people there is something inherently WRONG with them for being disgusted by something that is, in itself, an anomaly. There is nothing saying a man MUST find it acceptable either. Being disgusted by something is perfectly natural. Ugly, male, too fat, too thin or deformed... watching said groups engage in sexual affection towards others is disgusting to some. It is just as acceptable as someone being sexually attracted to a member of the same gender.

The only time it becomes a problem is if those feelings are ACTED upon. When something PRACTICAL comes from it.

 

[101flyboy]

I somehow just *knew* that you'd be the one to one to running out in protest to what I said.

3 words to you: Get. Over. Yourself.

Rationalize it however you want. I don't want to see gay people making out in public anymore than I want to see straight people making out in public. What anyone does behind closed doors is their own business, but I don't want to see it.

You don't want to see PDA? Fine. That's understandable. But that's not what you originally said.

I am "over it" in the sense I never really cared. I dismiss people who find same-sex kissing disgusting because I know that no-one has a legitimate reason for said view. It means nothing to me. I'm not the one with irrational biases that affect my mentality on the biggest social issue of our lifetime.

 

[Something Amyss]

I agree with the OP and I feel pretty much the same way.

Its how I am. I can't help it. Its as natural to me as it is for a gay guy to be doing what he does and for anyone to call me prejudiced and bigoted for what comes naturally is pretty hypocritical in itself.

I sincerely do hope the sum of who you are is more than merely a disgust at two dudes kissing.

However, it is something that can be helped and this sort of revulsion is rarely something that is natural.

It's an evolutionary dead-end.

No it's not.

That is if you want to get down to the complete nitty-gritty of the human condition and how nature operates. Survival of the fittest, homosexuality removes itself from the system. Morally there is nothing wrong with it, ethically there is nothing wrong with it, from a NATURAL perspective it goes heavily against the flow.

It doesn't go against the flow, this IS how nature operates. And even in the wild, you will see homosexuals raise young, either their own or taking on orphans. If you believe this is against the flow of nature, I'm not sure you understand what nature is.

Evolution in itself is imperfect to begin with. We don't really see this kind of bigotry towards other evolutionary "dead ends."

we know it is not how we are "designed" to operate.

You're going to have to explain here. Clearly, we are designed to operate like this. Otherwise, we wouldn't.

Something being unnatural does not make it wrong. Something being unnatural does not make it evil. Something being wrong does not make it unnatural. Something being evil does not make it unnatural.

Of course, that's completely unrelated to the rest of this, since it's not unnatural. By its very nature, it is natural.

It's pretty offensive to compare homophobia to being gay.

But not out of the norm. Have you seen the plight of the straight white male on these boards? It's kind of common for people to think they've got it just as bad as anyone else. I mean, it's wrong, but it stopped being wow-worthy to me about ten minutes after I got to these boards. >.>

"Why do people get so offended when I say hurtful things? It hurts my feelings."

I just described a third of the board's posts about women, blacks, gays, Muslims, Jews, etc.

(sorry to keep quoting you, but you continue to have quote-worthy things going on).

 

[101flyboy]

It's an evolutionary dead-end.

That is if you want to get down to the complete nitty-gritty of the human condition and how nature operates. Survival of the fittest, homosexuality removes itself from the system. Morally there is nothing wrong with it, ethically there is nothing wrong with it, from a NATURAL perspective it goes heavily against the flow.

It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with homosexuality in a societal sense, especially given how quickly the human race has been populating the earth - it's actually a good thing for it. But deep down inside the animal that is man, we know it is not how we are "designed" to operate.

Something being unnatural does not make it wrong. Something being unnatural does not make it evil. Something being wrong does not make it unnatural. Something being evil does not make it unnatural.

Please, please, PLEASE learn a little bit about how evolution works. Evolution is a sum of the parts phenomenon, not individual trait vs individual trait vs individual trait. Homosexuality isn't heterosexuality so comparing the two is pointless, especially considering homosexual persons can and do procreate. Sex isn't solely to procreate, however, and our "design" aka physical sex has zero to do with sexual orientation.

The question I asked is, do you find homosexuality in it's barest sense wrong. You do. So does it come as any surprise you hold the biases you do and are so strong in justifying it? No.

 

[101flyboy]

Never really cared even though you've been all over this topic like white on rice. k gotcha.

You strike me as one of those "ultra-liberal everything must be PC!" types. And I'm not going to change how I feel or how I see things just because it might offend someone's wittle fweewings.

I don't care about people having irrational biases. Calling out irrational biases for what they are is just that.

You're calling me PC for calling out homophobia. You're defiant. People like you are who I have a problem with. A major problem, and not because you offend me in terms of I getting hurt, but you offend me as a decent human being and you offend my intelligence. You are literally saying "I WANT to be homophobic, fuck you if you don't like it". That says everything about your character. It says it all. And you know it. That's the worst part about it. You *know* you're more or less a bigot (not just discomforted with homosexuality but an out and out homophobe) and you don't care one bit. People like you are the fucking problem, so stop deflecting your bigotry onto others.

 

[Something Amyss]

In the words of Morgan Freeman...
"I hate the word homophobia. It's not a phobia. You are not scared. You are an asshole."

To me, homophobia is the stupidity center of your brain forcing you to be hostile against those who have the GALL to do something differently from you.

Here's something fun we can do, though; if you ever get into a debate regarding legalizing gay marriage, ask the person voting against it to give you one good reason they shouldn't, that DOESN'T involve the Bible.

The stupidity center of our brain, however, is often operated by fear.

The term isn't exactly inaccurate.

Welp, you have to try spinach to know you don't like it right? Better get to work my friend.

I think I love you!

...But seriously, this has always been the sort of response I've used on the "sexuality is a choice" people. Except, you know, not with spinach.

Honest question: How do you regard people who find spinach or some other food disgusting?

Do you understand what false equivalence is?

I only ask because I've lived a pretty long time for a member of the Escapist. In my more than three decades of life on this planet, I've never seen or met anyone who was morally opposed to spinach because they didn't like it. In fact, I do like spinach and nobody has ever called me gross when I am out in public eating my spinach and broccoli calzone. If I go to a store and buy spinach, I'm not going to get harassed for it.

Maybe you have seen such spinach intolerance, but I doubt it. People who find spinach to be disgusting don't generally revolt against spinach eaters. Just like homosexuality, nobody is forcing you to put anything you don't want into your mouth. If they are, seek an authority figure.

In fact, on here and in general, there's only one group that tends to preach about how disgusting your choice of food is. Vegans. And here and in general, they tend to get called assholes.

I don't eat red meat. I don't find it enticing at all. I also don't ***** because I see someone eating a steak.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

The "homosexuality is unnatural" routine comes solely from the fact that homosexual couples can't have children on their own and it's a massive influence on people, because they are severely ignorant and misinformed about how nature and evolution works. I understand that it is hard to see where homosexuality fits in evolution, but it's only hard if you haven't done ANY kind of research on the subject. And why should you? You are *normal*, you don't have to worry about that.

"It's hard to light a candle, it's easy to curse the dark instead."

 

[Kroxile]

Never really cared even though you've been all over this topic like white on rice. k gotcha.

You strike me as one of those "ultra-liberal everything must be PC!" types. And I'm not going to change how I feel or how I see things just because it might offend someone's wittle fweewings.

I don't care about people having irrational biases. Calling out irrational biases for what they are is just that.

You're calling me PC for calling out homophobia. You're defiant. People like you are who I have a problem with. A major problem, and not because you offend me in terms of I getting hurt, but you offend me as a decent human being and you offend my intelligence. You are literally saying "I WANT to be homophobic, fuck you if you don't like it". That says everything about your character. It says it all. And you know it. That's the worst part about it. You *know* you're more or less a bigot (not just discomforted with homosexuality but an out and out homophobe) and you don't care one bit. People like you are the fucking problem, so stop deflecting your bigotry onto others.

Part of the problem, you say.. what problem? the problem with homosexuals getting the right to marry? I voted for that. I have 2 homosexual friends and one of them I consider a very good friend and I am all for them getting their rights and social acceptance.

You say I'm the intolerant one? People like you are the intolerant ones. You refuse to accept that matters aren't always black and white right or wrong or that there can be no grey area.

Before you accuse me of flipflopping on the issue I'm going to say that I shouldn't of even have to have said I don't want to see PDA or that I voted for same sex marriage or that I have 2 gay friends. But its people like you who have to constantly have a problem with everyone who may think differently than what is acceptable in their world view that have to force the issue.

People like you insult my intelligence as a human being because you cannot see the big picture. Its always one way or the other and it drives me up the wall that there can be no compromise.

 

[Abomination]

It's an evolutionary dead-end.

No it's not.

Yes it is because...

That is if you want to get down to the complete nitty-gritty of the human condition and how nature operates. Survival of the fittest, homosexuality removes itself from the system. Morally there is nothing wrong with it, ethically there is nothing wrong with it, from a NATURAL perspective it goes heavily against the flow.

It doesn't go against the flow, this IS how nature operates. And even in the wild, you will see homosexuals raise young, either their own or taking on orphans. If you believe this is against the flow of nature, I'm not sure you understand what nature is.

Evolution in itself is imperfect to begin with. We don't really see this kind of bigotry towards other evolutionary "dead ends."

We do see it towards the disabled, the unsound of mind, the deformed and the idea of incest. Evolution REQUIRES the individual to pass on their genes to the next generation. Homosexuality (as in ONLY engaging in sexual relations with members of the SAME gender) prevents that from happening.

It's a basic computation the mind makes. The individual, by choice or by nature, does not engage in sexual acts or seek to reproduce with ANY member of the opposite gender. This individual has REMOVED themselves from evolution. Their biology ends with them. An evolutionary dead-end.

It's an evolutionary dead-end.

That is if you want to get down to the complete nitty-gritty of the human condition and how nature operates. Survival of the fittest, homosexuality removes itself from the system. Morally there is nothing wrong with it, ethically there is nothing wrong with it, from a NATURAL perspective it goes heavily against the flow.

It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with homosexuality in a societal sense, especially given how quickly the human race has been populating the earth - it's actually a good thing for it. But deep down inside the animal that is man, we know it is not how we are "designed" to operate.

Something being unnatural does not make it wrong. Something being unnatural does not make it evil. Something being wrong does not make it unnatural. Something being evil does not make it unnatural.

Please, please, PLEASE learn a little bit about how evolution works. Evolution is a sum of the parts phenomenon, not individual trait vs individual trait vs individual trait. Homosexuality isn't heterosexuality so comparing the two is pointless. Sex isn't solely to procreate, and our "design" aka physical sex has zero to do with sexual orientation.

The question I asked is, do you find homosexuality in it's barest sense wrong. You do. So does it come as any surprise you hold the biases you do and are so strong in justifying them? No.

You asked me from a conceptual perspective, which given my earlier statement I assumed you were talking about from an evolutionary or natural-world perspective. The only thing I am justifying is someone being able to hold a personal revulsion or distaste towards something without being called "wrong" for it.

Two homosexual men raising a child? No problem, more than happy to see it. Two homosexual men engaged in sexually charged displays of affection? It makes me feel uncomfortable, I have revulsion towards it. Two homosexual men giving each other a peck on the lips or the cheek? No problem, I find it endearing.

Finally this had nothing to do with passing on the "homosexual gene" if it even exists. This was about how homosexuality, by its own application, removes its barer from the gene pool. Perhaps that's the reason why some straights feel revulsion towards men on men action? "That will not further our genetic code"? I don't know the EXACT reason for the cause of the revulsion but it's there and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[Something Amyss]

Never really cared even though you've been all over this topic like white on rice. k gotcha.

Of course, one can disagree with a notion and not be emotionally invested. Just saying.

And I'm not going to change how I feel or how I see things just because it might offend someone's wittle fweewings.

Maybe stop trying to justify yourself so hard, then. You kept making excuses for your phobias. When you were called on it, you railed against the guy as "PC."

Saying "I'm not going to change" is at least a step towards being up front. No blaming nature or pretending it's normal. It's a shame you still had to shift it towards someone else.

 

[101flyboy]

It's pretty offensive to compare homophobia to being gay.

But not out of the norm. Have you seen the plight of the straight white male on these boards? It's kind of common for people to think they've got it just as bad as anyone else. I mean, it's wrong, but it stopped being wow-worthy to me about ten minutes after I got to these boards. >.>

"Why do people get so offended when I say hurtful things? It hurts my feelings."

I just described a third of the board's posts about women, blacks, gays, Muslims, Jews, etc.

(sorry to keep quoting you, but you continue to have quote-worthy things going on).

Thank you, cool that you're quoting me! And you're right on the money and honestly, I'm pretty surprised by the blatant homophobia/transphobia/racism/misogyny I've seen here the past few days. I didn't think this board had a lot of that, but I guess you can't escape it anywhere.

I really don't give two shits if a person holds irrational biases or if they're just a bigot. I hate it when these people defend themselves as if they're in the right. That REALLY burns me up. It really annoys me when people intentionally are defiant. They get called out and then get defensive and defiant instead of asking why they're being called out. Why when a majority of people are saying the same thing that they refuse to admit they may be wrong. It's like, shut the fuck up and stop making excuses.

Homophobes have more or less gotten a free ride in society until the past really about 8 months. Now they're not being given a pass, they're being called out, and they can't handle it. I see this on an almost hourly basis on the web or in real life situations. They want to be pitied for their biases, respected for ignorance/irrationality and tolerated for doing something wrong. It's not going to happen.

 

[101flyboy]

Part of the problem, you say.. what problem? the problem with homosexuals getting the right to marry? I voted for that. I have 2 homosexual friends and one of them I consider a very good friend and I am all for them getting their rights and social acceptance.

Wow. You just used the gay friends excuse. Hahahaha. You just used the gay friends excuse, the "I voted for your marriages!" excuse. And you called gay people "homosexuals".

I wont bother to say why all of that is incredibly patronizing. What I will say is, that does not mean you're OK with homosexuality. At all. And clearly, you're not, given you effectively said "I refuse to address my homophobia".

Do you like in a city with a large gay populous? Just curious.

You say I'm the intolerant one? People like you are the intolerant ones. You refuse to accept that matters aren't always black and white right or wrong or that there can be no grey area.

Yes, I am intolerant to intolerance. Not everything is black and white, but this is. It is black and white. Homophobia is not right.

Before you accuse me of flipflopping on the issue I'm going to say that I shouldn't of even have to have said I don't want to see PDA or that I voted for same sex marriage or that I have 2 gay friends. But its people like you who have to constantly have a problem with everyone who may think differently than what is acceptable in their world view that have to force the issue.

I force the issue because people are getting hurt and discriminated against for absolutely no legitimate reason, while individuals such as yourself defend the mentalities that cause said hurt and discrimination.

You are not a victim. The victim card is what gets thrown out there a lot from people who are homophobic to some degree. If I see that card I tear it up, because it's meaningless. Homophobia is not equal to being gay.

People like you insult my intelligence as a human being because you cannot see the big picture. Its always one way or the other and it drives me up the wall that there can be no compromise.

The big picture is, we're in 2013, we're progressing as a society, homophobia is increasingly being seen as wrong because it *is* wrong, and you either are on the right side of history or you're not. There is no compromising on human rights, and the human value of all people.

 

[ninjaRiv]

Oh, I'm... PRETTY close to this gay friend, man.

Actually, That Rebellion fella said sickening. That's what I picked up on.

Anyway, I see your point but I disagree. Striving to be the best you can be doesn't mean you need to change this shit.

Then you're not striving to better yourself. And that's the problem I have. It's not that a person has this bias. But that you are called out on it, admit to it, and then make excuses for it. I see it as making excuses for bad behavior, like if you steal something and then blame it on not having enough money. OK, but still, it's wrong. Why adamantly defend your wrongness when you can be not wrong.

People can be disgusted by two guys kissing. If he told them they shouldn't be doing that or if he thought it's morally wrong, then he would be a bit shit as a person. Then I'd say he needs to look at his way of thinking. I just think it's nowhere near a big deal if it's a turn off for him. But he wasn't talking about the love, he was talking about the actual kissing. Personally I hate public displays of affection of any kind. Fuck that.

There is a difference between turn-off vs disgust, however. Being turned off by something means you find it unappealing. For someone like you, you're not biased. You just don't like PDA, which is fair. That's not having a bias, it's having a quantifiable view on something that is consistent regardless of who is doing it.

Aaron, the OP, stated he found the inference that two guys are homosexual disgusting and hand holding. Not simply kissing. And we're not even discussing making out. But some loving pecks. A kiss on the lips. What exactly is disgusting about that? If Aaron said I don't like seeing two guys make out, that's one thing. He more or less said he finds everything about male-male sexuality disgusting to the point of seizures. That's having a problem that will limit you in life, because you're going to avoid putting yourself in situations where that thing you're more or less panicking about is likely present. You're going to have a wall up, and that voice in your head of "ewww, gross" is going to be there. This isn't basic discomfort with you can work through. Discomfort doesn't denote wrongness. Discomfort is something you can work through, often easily. Disgust does denote wrongness. You can try to pretty it up a bit but ultimately, being disgusted by two guys kissing because they are two guys is effectively saying you find it wrong. On a practical level, theoretical level, moral level, whatever level it may be. Going out of your way to turn your head or give a dirty look is a pretty big deal to gay couples who see that and internalize the condemnation. That's why this is a bias that no-one should want to have. You shouldn't *want* to feel completely repelled in situations where without said bias, you wouldn't have such concerns. You shouldn't "want* to not be totally comfortable around your gay friends.

I'm just putting myself in a totally straight guy's shoes here, based on where I grew up (the British version of old Texas) and who I grew up with. There's a lot of grey area here.

 

[TheRookie8]

Homophobic? What, what is THAT!? Why are you asking me such things? Are you a homosexual? Are you accusing me of being a homosexual?! You're nothing but a trouble-maker! Get off the internet!!

...so that's one extreme. Here's my take:

Your personal fascination (a fetish, if you will) with two or more women engaging in erotic activity is no doubt stemming from your natural fixation with the opposite sex. I'd wager that the female anatomy is something you find instinctively pleasing to look at because it is so fundamentally different from your own, thus boosting the exciting erotic levels of pleasure. When at least TWO of these feminine forms engage in erotic activity...heh...

...which leads the homosexual engagements on the opposite sex. Unlike the previous situation, male homosexual expressions of love, sex, or intimacy are instantly more recognizable and personal from the outside male perspective, which I suspect might because we simply see ourselves more in male homosexual encounters than female homosexual encounters (we do, after all, share all the physical characteristics with the former). The empathy is immediate, instinctual, and still quite shocking (not so much because it is taboo, just because it is not as common).

It's like this: If I pour a drop of water (homosexual females) into a cup of water (my fascination), it's still just water. I understand that. However, if I pour a drop of colored dye (homosexual males) into my cup of water, it alters the established mix.

...so in short, don't drink the water.

 

[ninjaRiv]

I agree with the OP and I feel pretty much the same way.

Its how I am. I can't help it. Its as natural to me as it is for a gay guy to be doing what he does and for anyone to call me prejudiced and bigoted for what comes naturally is pretty hypocritical in itself.

No it isn't, because being gay is not a negative and your biases are negative so even if your biases were natural, they aren't deserving of similar acceptance as being gay. And given the fact NUMEROUS people here have said they once found same-sex affection off-putting and now they do not, more or less throws out the "it's how I am, I can't help myself" canard. There are too many straight people without these biases or who have every ability to repress these biases, to say your biases are simply completely natural. You don't want to help yourself. That's one thing. You can say that. You may feel no need to help yourself. That doesn't mean you can't. It doesn't mean you shouldn't. It's pretty offensive to compare homophobia to being gay.

You're assuming everyone has equal mental strength. Some folk go with the flow, you know? (heh, rhyme) So it's not totally crazy to think that some simply CAN'T change unless the whole of society changes which, let's face it, isn't a thing that's gonna happen. Ever.

Personally, I think acceptance can range from "getting involved" to "ignoring." People have different comfort levels, mental strength, etc. If a homophobe (the violent sort) can learn to just ignore homosexuality, I count that as a win for humanity.

 

[Rblade]

your homophobic by your choices, not your thoughts. You can think literally whatever you want, no restrictions. As long as you don't act upon them nobody is going to care. And really something is only a problem if someone cares, same like someone that has never seen a person of different skintone in his life asking if there is something wrong with said person is not racist.

 

[Rblade]

Heterosexuality is sexual attraction towards, and only towards, the opposite gender.

Well, in that case, most heterosexuals aren't heterosexuals and most homosexuals aren't actually homosexuals. I'm attracted to some women who are beautiful. Plenty of straight men are attracted to men they find good looking. You can find someone of the same-sex attractive and not be gay. You seem to be pretty uptight about sex and sexuality.

I just find it absurd that the fact I do not enjoy watching two homosexual men have a clearly romantic kiss with one another as something that, according to 101flyboy, is wrong with me. One might as well say there is something wrong with finding a certain type of cheese disgusting.

You keep making a big deal of basic affection. You'll have to ask yourself why. It's not about you ENJOYING two guys kissing, either. I never said you needed to enjoy it. No-one said you had to be attracted to the same-sex or be completely neutral towards same-sex kissing. Being so defensive isn't a good thing.

Those feelings would qualify as Bi-sexual. Hetro sexual is, by defenition, a person actracted to the other (hetro) sex.

And on the second point, I strongly think thinking is something you can never be blamed for. It's the active decision not to act on those thoughts that frees you of all blame. I literally think something can never be "wrong" with you based on thoughts and impulses you can control indefinetly

edit: oops double post, sorry.

 

[TheRookie8]

The big picture is, we're in 2013, we're progressing as a society, homophobia is increasingly being seen as wrong because it *is* wrong, and you either are on the right side of history or you're not. There is no compromising on human rights, and the human value of all people.

Whoa, back up. You've combined so many different schools of thought together in one statement that it's making my head spin.

Society is a wicked beast in that it is constantly throwing itself in one direction onto the next. You're faith in your opinion is all well and good (it shows conviction), but to arrogantly declare that a person is "either on the right side of history or not" seems a little extreme...who determines what is right? THAT is one huge question!

But on homophobia...I think it is a legitimate fear! The existence of this forum proves there is a scholarly interest in the subject, perhaps even confusion...and confusion can create fear. Now, you can understand fear, grapple with it, maybe even overcome it...but to call it "wrong" would be as misguided as me calling a healthy fear of heights "wrong". Why? Because in my opinion, fear can come from doing something you are uncomfortable with. If I am uncomfortable with heights, why should I climb them? Could I climb them? Yes! But is my fear wrong? No! Heights are fucking dangerous! Fear is a filter, as is homophobia!

Fear is a psychological warning put in place to maintain our own self-concept and self-preservation. I might be a homophobe because I fear external factors which might differ from my personal preferences...because there is the lingering threat of having my subconscious altered. The trick is not letting fear rule you. To be mindful of it, to accept information as it comes but not let it harm you. You may change your opinion of some fears, thinking them lesser or greater than anticipated, but this change more than likely will come as a result of a self-discovery, only peripherally related to societal trends.

 

[101flyboy]

You asked me from a conceptual perspective, which given my earlier statement I assumed you were talking about from an evolutionary or natural-world perspective. The only thing I am justifying is someone being able to hold a personal revulsion or distaste towards something without being called "wrong" for it.

You are wrong for it. Just because you don't like to be called wrong doesn't mean you're right. It doesn't mean you aren't wrong. You are in the wrong. It is what it is. You are making excuses for being wrong, I don't accept them, and in trying to get others to accept your wrongness you're making all kinds of logical fallacies.

Two homosexual men raising a child? No problem, more than happy to see it. Two homosexual men engaged in sexually charged displays of affection? It makes me feel uncomfortable, I have revulsion towards it. Two homosexual men giving each other a peck on the lips or the cheek? No problem, I find it endearing.

LOL..........why didn't you make that clear before? Hahaha. This entire conversation began with someone talking about basic affection between two men. Not two guys with their tongues down their throat. So why you continued jumping to that, I don't know. But there you go, you said you have NO problem and find it endearing to see two men showing loving affection within moderation.

That is the same with any group. Within moderation, many find it endearing and cute to see two people in love with one another. But that doesn't mean you want to see them snogging each other. And that's understandable. With that being said, given the fact you have admitted to believing homosexuality is unnatural and more or less wrong, then whatever disgust you do feel towards same-sex interaction probably revolves around that. It's not as if thinking homosexuality is unnatural and wrong will NOT affect the way you think of the subject as a whole. It will. It does.

inally this had nothing to do with passing on the "homosexual gene" if it even exists. This was about how homosexuality, by its own application, removes its barer from the gene pool. Perhaps that's the reason why some straights feel revulsion towards men on men action? "That will not further our genetic code"? I don't know the EXACT reason for the cause of the revulsion but it's there and there's nothing wrong with it.

Yes, there is something wrong with it. Having a negative view of homosexuality based on the fact you find it unnatural, which in itself is not true, is not a positive thing. It's a negative. It's a view that has a direct impact on the social standing of gay people. It is a view used to keep gay people on the fringes of society. Woman on woman action is homosexuality, too. It's not as if man on man is all homosexuality is.

It's not really about babies. Most people don't have sex for children. It's a view based on ignorance and misinformation. It's an excuse people run to, to defend why they hold homophobic bias. It is not justifiable in any way. It's wrong. There are not two sides to this situation. Homophobia is wrong.

 

[101flyboy]

Whoa, back up. You've combined so many different schools of thought together in one statement that it's making my head spin.

Society is a wicked beast in that it is constantly throwing itself in one direction onto the next. You're faith in your opinion is all well and good (it shows conviction), but to arrogantly declare that a person is "either on the right side of history or not" seems a little extreme...who determines what is right? THAT is one huge question!

The same was said about racism not long ago. Now it's universally seen as wrong outside of only the most ignorant. Similar was said about Jews not long ago, and society again, progressed and grew to realize said biases were incorrect.

The same is true on biases against homosexuality.

But on homophobia...I think it is a legitimate fear! The existence of this forum proves there is a scholarly interest in the subject, perhaps even confusion...and confusion can create fear. Now, you can understand fear, grapple with it, maybe even overcome it...but to call it "wrong" would be as misguided as me calling a healthy fear of heights "wrong". Why? Because in my opinion, fear can come from doing something you are uncomfortable with. If I am uncomfortable with heights, why should I climb them? Could I climb them? Yes! But is my fear wrong? No! Heights are fucking dangerous! Fear is a filter, as is homophobia!

That's a good way of putting it, comparing homophobia to fear of heights, but it's not quite a valid comparison. And the reason is because heights, as you said, are dangerous. You could fall from the roof of a house, or top of a long story building. You could pass out. You look down, and down, and down some more and see cars, see building, see people, if you're climbing a mountain you see boulders, large boulders, sharp, you may see a river down below. You're scared. It's understandable. You can die. Not wanting to climb mountains or stand on top of high rise buildings is a protective thing, as you said. It's a defense mechanism. It's understandable due to the fact there is a quantifiable reason for your fear.

There are ZERO said reasons for homosexuality. That doesn't mean a person is wrong for feeling that way, but the actual feeling, the irrational bias in itself. Is wrong. Because it's a negative bias, it's fear, based on something that in no way is a threat onto you.

Fear is a psychological warning put in place to maintain our own self-concept and self-preservation. I might be a homophobe because I fear external factors which might differ from my personal preferences...because there is the lingering threat of having my subconscious altered.

Concise way of putting it. You're correct. The question is if this way of thinking can be rationalized in any way. However, I will say, the question shouldn't be whether one can rationalize their bias. The question is whether said bias has a direct negative impact on their everyday lives or the lives of others. You can't say fear of heights do that. Of homosexuality? Especially if you live in a highly gay populated area. That's why some biases are given more of a free pass. Some are considered reasonable but more than that, they are biases that aren't in direct opposition to social norms, and aspects of society you can't avoid.

The trick is not letting fear rule you. To be mindful of it, to accept information as it comes but not let it harm you.

All of this is true, but we also have expectations and responsibilities regarding how we treat our fellow man. It's not enough to not let that fear rule you, but you also can't allow that fear lead you to harm others. They go hand in hand you could say. Unfortunately, most homophobes are NOT in control of their internalized fears and insecurities. That's the problem.