What is being homophobic?

[TomLikesGuitar]

snip

You're blowing things I say WAAY out of proportion.

I don't think homosexuality is wrong.

When did I say that?

Don't put words in my mouth.

You're demonizing me and playing victim again and I refuse to argue with you if you're going to do that.

 

[Abomination]

I understand completely that the individuals in question find males to be sexually attractive. Here's the thing, I find males to be the exact opposite of that. I find them to be sexually UNattractive... and that makes me homophobic! (apparently)

Naturally you shallowly understand that the two people are finding each other attractive. I'm talking about subconscious processes in your head that places you in the position of what you are perceiving, and reacting to that with revulsion because it's something you can't cope with.
"Not wanting to kiss a dude" is not the same as "feeling disgusted by guys kissing", but I'm not saying this is wrong, or even homophobic, it's just the same thing that makes you cringe when you see someone stub their toe.

Nothing shallow about it. People like different things. They are just as entitled to like what they want to like as I am entitled to dislike what I dislike. As long as neither of us attempt to impede or dissuade each other in our personal tastes I can't see how or why we could come to issue with each other.

The relationship between me being disgusted with the idea of interacting with another male in a sexual fashion and observing two men engage in clear sexual advances towards each other run parallel. Just as the tomato example, or running water encouraging urination... as long as I don't uncontrollably piss my pants when encountering water in motion who the hell cares?

 

[DanDeFool]

If you are grossed out by the thought of kissing someone who is the same sex as you, you are a heterosexual.

If you feel that the sight of two men or two women kissing is something young children should not be allowed to see, but it would be okay for them to see a man and a woman kissing, you might be a homophobe.

If you feel awkward when two homosexuals display their affections for each other publicly, you're a heterosexual.

If you feel angry in that situation, or physically sick, you might be a homophobe.

If you can talk to a homosexual person without constantly thinking about their sexual orientation, you're a heterosexual.

If you don't want to be in the same room with a homosexual, possibly because you're worried about "catching the gay", you might be a homophobe.

That help?

Homophobia=Irrational fear of, aversion towards and/or discrimination/hatred against homosexuality/homosexuals.

Your examples aren't quite right. Being anti-gay and being homophobic are similar but not the same things. Many aren't anti-gay but definitely homophobic.

A fair point. I'll admit, I wasn't really thinking about the distinction between those two when I wrote this.

 

[JudgeGame]

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That's the only issue you have with the analogy, that tomatoes aren't people? I think we know that.

The parallel is the interal reaction one has to seeing ANOTHER PERSON do something with the tomato. It's the same with observing two men kiss. Just because the object being interacted with is a person doesn't change the situation in the slightest. The observer's reaction is based upon their tastes and preferences. If the idea of kissing a man disgusts a person it is entirely rational that observing two men kiss would ALSO disgust that person.

So long as that observer does not attempt to impair anyone else's ability to kiss men there is no problem. It isn't about homophobia, it is about being disgusted with the idea of engaging in physical relations with men.

Telling someone that disgust of that nature is offensive, opressive or discriminatory is downright absurd. The reasons of the disgust aren't steeped in fear or hate towards homosexual males, it is simply an individual finding the idea of physical relations with a man disgusting.

Dude, no. It is not normal to be disgusted by two men kissing. That's a phobia. Just like you might have a phobia of eating tomatoes, you have a phobia of gay men. Phobias aren't just born from thin air, they are based on traumas. The large majority of homophobics get their trauma from social conditioning making them think same-gender sex is evil and wrong ie homophobia is based on fear and hate. There may be a few cases where the trauma comes from somewhere else, like for example sexual molestation, but they are much rarer than the majority of homophobics who were just taught to be repulsed by homosexuality. If one has been socially conditioned into homophobia, they should grow the fuck up and start deciding for themselves what is disgusting, not what society tells you is. If you don't want to accept this then whatever but at least take a word of advice and don't share this opinion of yours with others if you don't want to look like an asshole.

 

[Abomination]

Dude, no. It is not normal to be disgusted by two men kissing. That's a phobia. Just like you might have a phobia of eating tomatoes, you have a phobia of gay men. Phobias aren't just born from thin air, they are based on traumas. The large majority of homophobics get their trauma from social conditioning making them think same-gender sex is evil and wrong ie homophobia is based on fear and hate. There may be a few cases where the trauma comes from somewhere else, like for example sexual molestation, but they are much rarer than the majority of homophobics who were just taught to be repulsed by homosexuality. If one has been socially conditioned into homophobia, they should grow the fuck up and start deciding for themselves what is disgusting, not what society tells you is. If you don't want to accept this then whatever but at least take a word of advice and don't share this opinion of yours with others if you don't want to look like an asshole.

It's not a phobia. I am not TERRIFIED of homosexuals, I just find discomfort in witnessing two men engage in sexually charged affection.

The tomato example was based upon the texture of tomatoes giving someone the jeebies. Then, upon seeing someone else bite into a tomato they would recollect the sensation and again have those same jeebies.

This isn't even an opinion I would just tell people out of the blue. It is the topic of the damn thread since the OP asked a question on it.

 

[Teshi]

Who cares?

For fuck's sake. YOU do. YOU asked.

Someone asked me a question of a negative side effect of homosexuality. That was the only one I could possibly thing of.

I DO NOT THINK BEING HOMOSEXUAL IS A BAD THING.

But at the same time EVERYTHING has a downside. It doesn't have to be terribly significant, it doesn't have to be crippling. But everything has one. I was asked to present one for homosexuality, ignoring morality. And look what happens, I'm bashed over the head with moral judgments for daring to suggest such a thing.

It does flow against natural selection because its very nature removes the biological seed of the INDIVIDUAL from the pool. It does it in a most peculiar way. Not through weakness or inability to adapt or reproduce but by the individual?s subconscious. Every other species possesses (in a significant majority of its members) the drive to reproduce yet homosexuality places a rather strange barrier towards that end - preference towards a sexual partner from which you can not reproduce.

lol, well, congratulations on your 5th grade level understanding of natural selection, evolution, and sexual reproduction, I guess.

 

[JudgeGame]

Dude, no. It is not normal to be disgusted by two men kissing. That's a phobia. Just like you might have a phobia of eating tomatoes, you have a phobia of gay men. Phobias aren't just born from thin air, they are based on traumas. The large majority of homophobics get their trauma from social conditioning making them think same-gender sex is evil and wrong ie homophobia is based on fear and hate. There may be a few cases where the trauma comes from somewhere else, like for example sexual molestation, but they are much rarer than the majority of homophobics who were just taught to be repulsed by homosexuality. If one has been socially conditioned into homophobia, they should grow the fuck up and start deciding for themselves what is disgusting, not what society tells you is. If you don't want to accept this then whatever but at least take a word of advice and don't share this opinion of yours with others if you don't want to look like an asshole.

It's not a phobia. I am not TERRIFIED of homosexuals, I just find discomfort in witnessing two men engage in sexually charged affection.

The tomato example was based upon the texture of tomatoes giving someone the jeebies. Then, upon seeing someone else bite into a tomato they would recollect the sensation and again have those same jeebies.

This isn't even an opinion I would just tell people out of the blue. It is the topic of the damn thread since the OP asked a question on it.

I just told you to stop sharing your opinion on the matter but for some reason you think you have a right to be repulsed by shows of affection between two men. Look. Two men kissing is not the same as you having sex against your will with a man. There is no comparison because in the first there is an act of consent and in the other there isn't. I can't believe I just wrote that sentence because this really didn't need explaining. Furthermore, neither is a homosexual man the same thing as a tomato. You cannot treat or approach a homosexual man the same way you would treat or approach a tomato so this analogy is extremely unhelpful.

If you have serious psychological issues regarding what gay men do in your presence, I think you should keep it to yourself, or if you want to go the extra mile actually go and get help with your problem. I understand it's relatively easy for most people to get over internalized homophobia and professional help is fast, easy and relatively inexpensive. Maybe your insurance covers it or somebody offers it free of charge. Although honestly, I think it's incredibly easy to get over it without any help. You just need to accept that two people kissing each other is nice and shouldn't affect you in any way you don't want it to.

 

[Abomination]

lol, well, congratulations on your 5th grade level understanding of natural selection, evolution, and sexual reproduction, I guess.

Oh, humans have evolved in a manner that allows a man to conceive the child of another man? I guess I need to read up on these startling developments.

I just told you to stop sharing your opinion on the matter but for some reason you think you have a right to be repulsed by shows of affection between two men.

Wow. Just, wow.

I don't have the right? As in it is forbidden?

Of course I have the fucking right. I have the right to think/feel whatever I damn well please.

The sheer hypocrisy of your position is astounding.

 

[JudgeGame]

lol, well, congratulations on your 5th grade level understanding of natural selection, evolution, and sexual reproduction, I guess.

Oh, humans have evolved in a manner that allows a man to conceive the child of another man? I guess I need to read up on these startling developments.

I just told you to stop sharing your opinion on the matter but for some reason you think you have a right to be repulsed by shows of affection between two men.

Wow. Just, wow.

I don't have the right? As in it is forbidden?

Of course I have the fucking right. I have the right to think/feel whatever I damn well please.

The sheer hypocrisy of your position is astounding.

You don't have the right to flaunt your homophobia around. It's not protected by any law.

 

[Abomination]

You don't have the right to flaunt your homophobia around. It's not protected by any law.

I think you'll find it most certainly is provided it isn't classified as hate speech - which in this instance it most certainly wouldn't be. It also wouldn't be homophobia but I'll entertain that notion just for the sake of informing you how you have no idea what the rights of individuals are when it comes to communication and thought.

 

[generals3]

You don't have the right to flaunt your homophobia around. It's not protected by any law.

I would say freedom of speech kind of covers that. He may not be able to incite violence towards gays but he can damn well express his disgust towards certain displays of affection between gays.

 

[JudgeGame]

You don't have the right to flaunt your homophobia around. It's not protected by any law.

I would say freedom of speech kind of covers that. He may not be able to incite violence towards gays but he can damn well express his disgust towards certain displays of affection between gays.

I chose my words poorly. I meant to say something like it's not something you should be proudly fighting for. What came out was completely different so I'm at fault there.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

The reasoning that evolution would somehow select against homosexuality has been proven wrong in the first place, that premise is invalid.
Read this: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13674-evolution-myths-natural-selection-cannot-explain-homosexuality.html

Evolution is not sentient, evolution doesn't hold any moral judgement, evolution does not care about whether we pass on our genetic potential or not, evolution does not care whether something is beneficial for us or not.

Social darwinism is so "passé" people.

I find it funny they talk about Bisexuality to counter an argument about homosexuality.

First off, bisexuality is still counted as homosexuality. Secondly, it doesn't matter, because evolution doesn't inherently care or select for certain traits. And finally, a simply google for "evolution & homosexuality" will end you up with a plethora of different studies.

The argument of previous posters what that homosexuality was "against evolution" and therefore morally wrong. That is a bullshit argument, because evolution does not carry a moral judgement about passing on or not passing on your genetic material.

In terms of population stability and ecology, it is often observed how members of certain species decide to become foster parents for the offspring of others, or choose not to procreate, while still contributing to the survival of the population as a whole.

Evolution does not say that you MUST procreate and pass on your genes or that it is a moral obligation.

 

[generals3]

First off, bisexuality is still counted as homosexuality. Secondly, it doesn't matter, because evolution doesn't inherently care or select for certain traits. And finally, a simply google for "evolution & homosexuality" will end you up with a plethora of different studies.

The argument of previous posters what that homosexuality was "against evolution" and therefore morally wrong. That is a bullshit argument, because evolution does not carry a moral judgement about passing on or not passing on your genetic material.

In terms of population stability and ecology, it is often observed how members of certain species decide to become foster parents for the offspring of others, or choose not to procreate, while still contributing to the survival of the population as a whole.

Evolution does not say that you MUST procreate and pass on your genes or that it is a moral obligation.

Firstly, if people use the evolution argument they quite clearly distinguish bisexuality from homosexuality for the obvious reason that bisexuals can procreate and homosexuals cannot. So equating both would show a lack of understanding of the argument you're trying to refute.

Secondly, i have not seen many people use the evolutionary argument to argue something was morally wrong. Morals have transcended biological phenomenons for a long time. Otherwise one might say fights to the death are morally right because it "cleans the gene pool from the weak", which is not something you'll see people say often. Something can be naturally wrong but not morally wrong.

Actually i have not often heard of species deliberately not reproducing. Being foster parents of others' offspring, yes. But I don't even see the link between not procreating and being a "foster parent" of other kids.

And evolution doesn't say you must do anything, i agree there. However nature dictates that if everyone were gay the species would go extinct and unless you assume that is what nature intended than obviously homosexuality is not a natural (as in "naturally intended") behavior.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

First off, bisexuality is still counted as homosexuality. Secondly, it doesn't matter, because evolution doesn't inherently care or select for certain traits. And finally, a simply google for "evolution & homosexuality" will end you up with a plethora of different studies.

The argument of previous posters what that homosexuality was "against evolution" and therefore morally wrong. That is a bullshit argument, because evolution does not carry a moral judgement about passing on or not passing on your genetic material.

In terms of population stability and ecology, it is often observed how members of certain species decide to become foster parents for the offspring of others, or choose not to procreate, while still contributing to the survival of the population as a whole.

Evolution does not say that you MUST procreate and pass on your genes or that it is a moral obligation.

Firstly, if people use the evolution argument they quite clearly distinguish bisexuality from homosexuality for the obvious reason that bisexuals can procreate and homosexuals cannot. So equating both would show a lack of understanding of the argument you're trying to refute.

Secondly, i have not seen many people use the evolutionary argument to argue something was morally wrong. Morals have transcended biological phenomenons for a long time. Otherwise one might say fights to the death are morally right because it "cleans the gene pool from the weak", which is not something you'll see people say often. Something can be naturally wrong but not morally wrong.

Actually i have not often heard of species deliberately not reproducing. Being foster parents of others' offspring, yes. But I don't even see the link between not procreating and being a "foster parent" of other kids.

And evolution doesn't say you must do anything, i agree there. However nature dictates that if everyone were gay the species would go extinct and unless you assume that is what nature intended than obviously homosexuality is not a natural (as in "naturally intended") behavior.

Not everyone is homosexual and obviously not everyone is ever going to become homosexual, I think that's simply exaggeration.

I did see the moral argument here, outspoken or not. It always arises in these kinds of discussions because people use evolution to suit their arguments and assume that something is right or not right, natural or unnatural because evolution somehow prefers it. That is simply misunderstanding and even abusing the theory of evolution and using it for moral judgement.

This lecture by prof. Volker Sommer explains it better than I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjd7hMhoeAM

 

[Ieyke]

For the record, hatred of gay people should NOT be called "homophobia".
"Phobia" is Greek for "fear", not "hatred".

The term should be something more like "homoéchthra" "échthra"="hatred" in Greek. THAT would be hatred/enmity/animosity toward gay people.
(No, that's not an actual term AFAIK, and it's probably not even properly formatted Greek, for all I know.)
Just sayin', "phobia" doesn't mean hate, just fear, and "échthra" means hate/animosity/enmity/etc, which is what people often mean when they say "homophobia"

Most people with arachnophobia, for example are far to busy being terrified of spiders to hate them. They may "hate: spider in the sense that they clearly don't like them, but even thinking about them provokes feelings of fear, not feelings of the feelings of anger/rage/malice required for hate. Their urge to kill a spider is not because they hate it and therefore want it dead, but rather that they do not feel safe while it is alive, and therefore they want it dead.

Important distinctions, I feel.
*shrug*

.
.
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I'm especially weird.

- I treat all people the same. Don't remotely care if a guy is gay, as long as I don't have to witness it.
- My best friend is slightly bi, and (I think) attracted to me to some degree.
- My quasi-girlfriend is slightly bi.
- I'm only ever attracted to women.
- Lesbians together is barely more attractive to me than whichever of the two is hotter on her own would be...unless they're both just -ridiculously- hot. Then it's AWESOME.
- Guys kissing and stuff weirds me right the hell out. Can't comfortably stand it if it's anything other than real brief.
- I think male junk is hot.

Those last two put together throw me for a loop.
I don't really know how to make sense of that.
*shrug*

Like....if there was a hermaphrodite that was outright a natural woman aside from having a penis, I'd be 100% okay with that.
Transexual guys are not any more okay with me than regular guys. I can still tell it's a guy and it weirds me right the hell out if they're doing stuff together or with a regular guy.
.
.
So in a sense, I have a sort of very specific homophobia (an irrational aversion, but NOT hate, for genetic males sexually/overly intimately interacting), but in all other aspects I either don't care or think it's great (yay lesbians and male junk?!).
.
.
.
I gave up trying to understand myself. I'm a living contradiction.
*shrug*

 

[Cheesus Crust]

I probably won't puke or anything if I see two guys kissing as I've watched some local theater productions in my own university that features two guys kissing. A bit unnerved but not necessarily a violent reaction of "God that was awful and unnatural!" If I see two or more guys having sex then that's probably my limit.

I don't have anything against homosexuality. I just don't like seeing two guys having sex.

On a side note, my professor in experimental psychology once cited an experiment where they showed straight heterosexuals videos of homosexuals to see if they'd get aroused. Most did, the implication being that the simple act of seeing two people sex (being a voyeur) arouses people despite their own feelings or cognitions.

I do agree that the word homphobia should be reserved for people who have prejudices against the LGBT community and that people who just feel weird and doesn't do anything to infringe on a homo's (somebody said it ain't a slur that it's just short for homosexual) rights to express love is just someone who doesn't feel comfortable with seeing two or more people of the same sex do the deed.

 

[monkey_man]

It's more about how you act I think. You can't force yourself to be okay with stuff that you don't like. Can't be done.
If you treat homosexual people like any other however, They'll treat you likewise. it's all preferences and interests and stuff.

It's more about how you act I think. You can't force yourself to be okay with stuff that you don't like. Can't be done.

Oh really? Is that why several posters in this very thread have said they used to feel major discomfort and disgust against homosexuality, and now do not?

It's more about how you act I think. You can't force yourself to be okay with stuff that you don't like. Can't be done.

Sure it can. Because like the OP, I used to have the "Ew!" reaction every time I saw a reference to anything gay. I grew up in a tiny, isolated Bible-belt town and had never encountered an openly gay couple until high school, when two gay people were brought in to assembly to teach us about the danger of AIDS. And that didn't really set things off on a promising tone.

But gradually I grew up, got my head out of my ass, realized that seeing gay people wasn't going to turn me gay, got to know some gay friends as normal people (they started as "my gay friends" and eventually became "my friends (and sometimes I remember that they're also gay)".

And anyone else in this thread can do the same.

Like I said forced. You can however learn that people are people and not monsters stealing souls. I´m not fond of seeing 2 men kissing, It´s not something in my interests honestly. I DO know I should not make snide remarks to -and or insult- these people, even though i don´t like what i see. It's not from being dumb and thinking that gayness is a disease that spreads, no. I just don't like to see men kissing eachother. Is that a crime? I think not. If that offends you go right ahead. I don't have to like everything. I won't like everything. It's not going to change, I can't MAKE it so that I don't not like it. that's what I meant. I don't like frigging broccoli, is that something bad too? Do we need special treatment for broccoli?

*Sigh* This sounds way too defensive. Anyway, I JUST AND ONLY don't like to see MEN kissing. (go right ahead women ;D )Will I act? no. Will I comment? no. Will they care I don't like it? Probably not. Will they care if I call out? yes. Will i though? no.

I don't really like the word condoning (not that it's mentioned). I like it or I don't. There are degrees, but condoning sounds even dumber than not liking it. "Oh sure, I give you the right to snog". Is that really something I have to do? Is that helping in any shape or form? I think it would only do damage. They're just people, they can do whatever the flip they. We shouldn't tell them how to live their lives. I make no distinction between a straight or gay man, nor women. nor black or white or whatever. I treat people the same way they treat me. If you're nice, I'll be nice. If you're a d***, I'll return the favour.
The fact that the word still exists disgusts me. Homophobic. scared of gays. To loosely quote Morgan Freeman: "You're not afraid, you're just a d***". We've evolved as a species beyond the need for petty racism and stupidity. Everyone who's homophobic, xenophobic, should look at themselves first.

To avoid other mayor stuff, I don't think Homosexuality is wrong. I don't like to see 2 men kiss, but I don't think it's wrong. It's just an opinion. Like my hate for broccoli, my devotion to cake, my fondness of gaming and my interest in drawing. And my fear for the imminent zombie/robot/vampire/evildoer uprising.
I rephrased some bits to reflect my thoughts better, as explained on the next page's first page

*DEATH TO ALL BROCCOLIIIIIIIIIIIIIII*

 

[repeating integers]

*homosnipsual*
I am intolerant of homophobia. I will always be intolerant of homophobia. I will always be intolerant towards those who lack tolerance themselves against gay people. Intolerance doesn't receive tolerance. That's not what tolerance entails.

The whole thing is reminding me of this [http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=60578].

Certain posters in this thread may son find themselves in similar positions on that site.

 

[Crazy]

I love and tolerate each and every one of my subjects equally, bar some exceptions. Their sexuality is not relevant to me, if they are gay or straight.

But I bet everyone here loves lesbians, so a lot things are moot.