What is being homophobic?

[101flyboy]

You are so smart I bet you believe everythign you say is true wait probably not you probably think some crazy stuff about people I bet alot of what you think about other people is the stuff in your head leaking out into the world you might not want that to happen because then you look crazy.

So when all else fails, turn to insults, I guess.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Homophobic is a dumb word. I don't know its etymology but it was probably made up as a label for anyone visibly against gays, which fear doesn't necessarily have anything to do with.

 

[Aglynugga]

You are so smart I bet you believe everythign you say is true wait probably not you probably think some crazy stuff about people I bet alot of what you think about other people is the stuff in your head leaking out into the world you might not want that to happen because then you look crazy.

So when all else fails, turn to insults, I guess.

You would have to guess because you did not read I said probably it is just my opinion but you probably think weird stuff about people and it shows because you write things that are just you thinking about other people what you have in your head. But that's ok everyone does that.

 

[101flyboy]

I tried to make sense of homosexuality for a long time. It's different than how I think, and it's big part of my nature to want to understand people who are different than I am. I had a friend in high school who was openly gay and very conflicted about it (this is in the "bible belt", in case you were curious). We were talking one day and he asked if I knew why he was gay. I didn't have an answer for him because at the time I was 14 and was still trying to figure out math, let alone relationships. It wasn't until much later that I realized that there really wasn't an answer, he was gay because he just was. Sadly we're no longer in contact. He was a few years older than me and moved as soon as he got the chance, and eventually we just drifted apart.

Although you didn't answer the question, there is no problem in that as you put it, he is who he is, because that's just who he is. What's important is that you were a truly supportive, accepting friend and that means a lot, especially given you lived in the Bible Belt. That's really major.

I had another friend in high school who was known for being rather promiscuous with the ladies, so it was a bit of a shocker when he "came out". We were working out one day, and being the curious person that I am, I asked "at what point did you know that you were gay?" His answer was a little surprising to me at first.

"I think I've always known. I just thought that if I was with enough girls, had enough sex, did all the things I was supposed to do, then I would be able to fix myself. Coming out really wasn't me realizing that I'm gay, it was me finally admitting it to myself."

The more I think about it, the more his answer makes sense to me. I still don't understand his sexuality, but I don't question it, and we're friends to this day.

That happens A LOT. In fact (not tooting the horn just saying) I can say I've been with guys who are ladies men, or are the guys that girls throw themselves on. And they think if they play the straight game that they'll be straight, or that others won't suspect they are gay. Of course it doesn't work that way. You can only lie forever. You can only deny forever. You can't change who you are innately. And you can portray the straight man image, but you're going to eventually slip up. Being gay, and considered attractive by peers, you see this dynamic. Some so-called straight guys checking their friend out on the sly, checking you out, and that no-one notices.

It's understandable you don't understand on an individual level. I don't really get the attraction to boobs and vagina. Because I don't find it appealing. But that's because I'm gay. It's not because there is something wrong or disgusting with boobs and vagina.

In the OP's case, he found a question that he wants to answer. Now he has to look inside himself and see if he's actually willing to answer it.

The the case with all forms of prejudice. That's the threat at work here. Do I really want to ask myself these tough questions? Am I ready to see the reflection in the mirror? People tend to like to blame others for their dilemmas, or not even admit they may have a problem. It takes a strong person to admit their weaknesses.

 

[Skootle13]

This thread is making little sense to me.

If I don't like seeing same sex couples kiss, I am homophobic. So then... Help me out with this:
I don't like seeing hetero couples kiss either. So then am I heterophobic (what would be the right word?) as well?

 

[101flyboy]

You are so smart I bet you believe everythign you say is true wait probably not you probably think some crazy stuff about people I bet alot of what you think about other people is the stuff in your head leaking out into the world you might not want that to happen because then you look crazy.

So when all else fails, turn to insults, I guess.

You would have to guess because you did not read I said probably it is just my opinion but you probably think weird stuff about people and it shows because you write things that are just you thinking about other people what you have in your head. But that's ok everyone does that.

I don't think weird stuff of people. In fact, the opposite is true. I tend to take people at face value. I tend to take what they say as a representation of what they are and how they operate. And from there I decide who I like, who I want to know more about, who I dislike.

You're right, everyone makes judgments. Everyone internalizes in their own way. I internalize more than most and whatever I believe from that is a reflection of what my "readings" of that person tell me to think.

 

[101flyboy]

This thread is making little sense to me.

If I don't like seeing same sex couples kiss, I am homophobic. So then... Help me out with this:
I don't like seeing hetero couples kiss either. So then am I heterophobic (what would be the right word?) as well?

You dislike PDA.

We're talking about people who are borderline fetishizing woman-woman sex, and intimacy, while also saying anything male-male is gross. That's not a "I don't like PDA" mentality. It's a "I don't like male homosexuality" mentality.

 

[101flyboy]

If you hae a problem with gay people, unless you also live in actual physical discomfort level compulsive fear of homosexuals, it's not a "phobia", you're a bigot. End of story. Hate the way 'phobia" is so misused.

In this case, it is homophobia. The word is clearly overused and used incorrectly, but not everyone who has this mentality in regards to having an irrational revulsion of same-sex intimacy are bigoted. A large portion, of course, yes. But not quite all. They're just insecure and have internalized issues they haven't addressed.

Now, when they go out of their way to blame gay people for those problems or not admit they have a problem, then I dismiss them as a bigot or as simply someone who really just isn't gay accepting.

 

[101flyboy]

No, I used it as an example because there are clear parallels. Physical affection between LOVERS is SEXUAL. Just because it is not sex does not mean it is not sexual. You will notice I also mentioned eating snails as an example, something people can understandably find disgusting but at the same time is completely culturally acceptable, and many are known to enjoy.

Human beings aren't snails. Human beings are not food.

Holding hands is SEXUAL? Greeting your partner with a kiss=sex? Um, no. First of all, you couldn't possibly know their intentions and whether or not it was sexual or not, whether they were behaving with sexualized intent when the kissed one another, or whether that kiss will turn into sex eventually. Making out is sexual, you can feel the sexual charge, you can read into it these two people are lusting one another. But basic physical affection between lovers is an expression of love.

TBH, you should address that mentality. It would save you a lot of unnecessary angst regarding your distaste of PDA. To jump from holding hands to penetrative sex is, again, projective disgust in a nutshell.

Two men having intercourse is something I am completely fine with, I just do not wish to witness it as it is a situation I would not personally want to be involved in. I do not want to watch someone who enjoys being whipped because I would not enjoy it. Nails on a chalk board, the person doing it probably has no problem but I will think back to how it made my nails feel and dislike remembering the sensation.

I totally get that but none of this has anything to do with kissing hahaha. I'm not laughing at you at all but it's just funny. We're talking about basic affection and you're bringing up male intercourse. Obviously, you wouldn't want to see two men fucking one another. Actually, I don't want to see anyone fucking one another up close, because sex is a personal thing and I'd feel like I'm intruding and sort of feel violated. There is no homophobia in that, but that's not what's being discussed.

Not every homosexual is flamboyant. I know many homosexuals who find flamboyance to be annoying yet it is (sadly) always associated with homosexuality. Lisping words, over-excitement, having in a way akin to a "valley girl".

That has nothing to do with men showing affection, though. Actually............no, it does, to a certain extent. The gay men=feminine=lesser men mentality. Misogyny. Homophobia is very much connected to misogyny, and so is projective disgust. Men taking and acting as women.

Most gay men aren't overtly fem, but even if they were...........so what? There is no shame in being fem. Plenty of straight men are more fem. Gay men across the board, fem and masculine, hate the fake ones, who put on a false character because they want attention. Fake guys who are insecure and aren't comfortable yet in their own skin. Can it be annoying? Yes. But we're talking about a HUMAN BEING. Not an act. Not a personality trait. Humans. And it certainly is NOT OK to reject a human being on the basis of one aspect of their personality that you a) don't understand and b) don't like because you don't understand.

So what I'm seeing more or less is, I'm OK with gay men who pass as straight or who aren't TOO gay. That's not acceptance. Everyone should try not prejudging people and get to know them first.

Whatever it is supposedly called matters not. There is nothing homophobic or wrong about finding the actions of two humans unappealing.

That's what you want to believe because you don't want to admit you may have internalized homophobia issues, and you don't want to accept you may be the one with the issue. Unfortunately for you, research has been done on this subject, and it's clear this projective disgust mentality is born from homophobia. You can either address it or it will fester and likely get worse.

 

[101flyboy]

There are several degrees of homophobia, honestly.

I respect your honesty and I'm sorry whatever occurred in your childhood has left scars. I disagree, though, with you more or less saying low level/moderate homophobia is acceptable. It is not acceptable whatsoever. It's unhealthy, to the homophobe, to homosexual persons, and to society. Very unhealthy. We should all strive to better ourselves in the end and that means working at admitting to yourself you have internalized issues you need to deal with.

Homophobia=Irrational fear of, aversion towards, discrimination/hatred of homosexuality/homosexuals.

Yes, Aaron, you have homophobic tendencies. You can be homophobic and not anti-gay. It is homophobia to be disgusted by same-sex kissing between two guys, hand holding. It is prejudice. Is it bigotry? No. But it's an irrational discomfort. There is nothing actually inherently disgusting about it.

Hit the nail on the head, this man.

Thank you Andy!

 

[Abomination]

No, I used it as an example because there are clear parallels. Physical affection between LOVERS is SEXUAL. Just because it is not sex does not mean it is not sexual. You will notice I also mentioned eating snails as an example, something people can understandably find disgusting but at the same time is completely culturally acceptable, and many are known to enjoy.

Human beings aren't snails. Human beings are not food.

Your inability/refusal to compare the analogy between being disgusted at someone eating snails and being disgusted at watching two men kiss leads me to believe you are simply taking the Mickey.

Investigate what an 'analogy' is. Before that I can not converse with you.

 

[Samantha Burt]

Here's my question: Is harmless homophobia alright?

Of course. Harmless homophobia is, tautologically, harmless. If something hurts no-one, but helps a person find happiness/comfort, then there is nothing wrong with it. Someone finding me and my fiancée to be an unsettling concept has as much right to that feeling as we have to be in love. I'm not going to stop them if they don't stop me; live and let live, etc.

 

[101flyboy]

No, I used it as an example because there are clear parallels. Physical affection between LOVERS is SEXUAL. Just because it is not sex does not mean it is not sexual. You will notice I also mentioned eating snails as an example, something people can understandably find disgusting but at the same time is completely culturally acceptable, and many are known to enjoy.

Human beings aren't snails. Human beings are not food.

Your inability/refusal to compare the analogy between being disgusted at someone eating snails and being disgusted at watching two men kiss leads me to believe you are simply taking the Mickey.

Investigate what an 'analogy' is. Before that I can not converse with you.

False analogy AKA logical fallacy. Look that up and you'll see why I won't engage you on comparing eating a snail to a human being showing affection to another human being.

 

[Abomination]

No, I used it as an example because there are clear parallels. Physical affection between LOVERS is SEXUAL. Just because it is not sex does not mean it is not sexual. You will notice I also mentioned eating snails as an example, something people can understandably find disgusting but at the same time is completely culturally acceptable, and many are known to enjoy.

Human beings aren't snails. Human beings are not food.

Your inability/refusal to compare the analogy between being disgusted at someone eating snails and being disgusted at watching two men kiss leads me to believe you are simply taking the Mickey.

Investigate what an 'analogy' is. Before that I can not converse with you.

False analogy AKA logical fallacy. Look that up and you'll see why I won't engage you on comparing eating a snail to a human being showing affection to another human being.

No, it is NOT a false analogy. When seeking to emulate the feeling of disgust one might have at observing one thing they know is not wrong but still causes them pause has parallels between both. Watching someone eat snails and two homosexual men kiss (as was mentioned in the first post of this thread, stop trying to say this isn't about kissing and is about holding hands, this entire thread spawned on the premise of watching two homosexual men kiss) causes the exact same feeling of discontent in both situations in individuals.

Do not just call "logical fallacy" without explaining WHY it is a logical fallacy. Both involve humans partaking in an action deemed strange (or maybe the better term is "queer") by society. Both spawn a sense of involuntary revolution. Both do not directly harm the viewer, participant or any part of society as a whole. Please explain how this is a false analogy.

 

[Mr F.]

Okay firstly let me clear up where I'm coming from, I'm your typical heterosexual male aged in his 20's. And I have a dilemma - you see, I absolutely love the sight of two women kissing or getting it on. It's rather arousing, if not simply plain damn sexy as hell.
But the sight of two GUYS kissing makes my brain have a fucking seizure. I can't help it.

The definition of homophobia is "holding prejudice against homosexuals", but I hold no prejudice against a guy I meet if he tells me he's gay. Whatever, doesn't bother me, I'd still treat him the same as I treat anyone else. BUT if I saw the same guy engaging in something romantic...even something as simple as holding hands in a "we are obviously lovers" fashion with another guy...I feel the need to look away, something simply clicks in my mind and yells "oh god why did I have to see that??". An image of two guys kissing, even on the internet, makes me immediately get rid of that image as fast as my fingers allow me to and spend the next few minutes recovering from the shock of seeing such a thing, my mind desperately trying to trash that image into a virtual bin.

But I still find the sight of lesbians damn, damn sexy.

You see, what I'm asking here is why the word "homophobic" has one single definition, when I GUARANTEE you that a sizable chunk of the world's population could be classified as "homophobic" when it comes to homosexuals of their own gender, and not bothered at all by the idea of the OPPOSITE sex engaging in homosexual acts.

Case in point, I bet a lot of women find the idea of two guys getting it on quite sexy/arousing. It has to be true judging by all the stuff I find on DeviantArt (yes, that site, deal with it ) drawn-up by female artists, and all the comments by female fans. And I've known plenty of females who could literally puke at the very thought of two girls kissing yelling "oh god disgusting!!", something that would be a welcome sight by a lot of guys. They could be called homophobic because they dislike the idea of lesbians...okay, dislike is a strong word, but they will still make them uneasy or uncomfortable. But it's only natural, is it not??

Thoughts?

And of course, what would be an Escapist discussion be without a slightly relevant video

Spoiler

Firstly, how old are you?

Secondly... Get over yourself.

Seriously, if the thought of two guys doing anything even moderately romantic makes your brain react like that it just comes across like you have some hella issues you need sorting. And I do not mean that in a mean way whatsoever. But seriously, if you cannot function when around homosexual men it kinda indicates that you have some issues to get over.

I assume you do not live in a very large city?

Cause if so you would spend the majority of your time recovering from random glimpses of happy gay couples.

 

[Ren_Li]

I'm going to put mindset and irrational hate aside for this because that's a totally different ball park to knee-jerk disgust.

Here's the thing. There's a lot of people you're not going to be attracted to. For heterosexual men that includes men. Is your reaction more severe than to romantic behaviour between members of any other group you're not attracted to?

Let's use family members as an example, because I don't know what turns you off with the ladies and I don't want to be judgmental.
Does seeing, say, your parents, holding hands, bother you as much as it bothers you to see two men holding hands? If the answer is "no" then your issue with two men holding hands is that it's a sign of homosexuality, and NOT two people you're unattracted to being romantic.
Same with chaste peck kisses.

Nobody wants to be exposed to people they're completely unattracted to being intimate. That is NORMAL. Being turned off by seeing gay men doing something which would also repulse you if you caught (again, JUST as an example) your parents doing it is normal and totally not homophobic.
Being turned off by gay men doing something that you would be okay with ANY OTHER adult couple doing IS, because your issue is that they're gay. Of course it's not a reaction you're choosing to have, but that doesn't change the fact- or the reason- that you're having it.

I hope my post is coherent. It's a tricky subject and a tricky point to have to make, and I tend to be rambly at the best of times.

Oh, and kudos to being able to question your reasons for your reactions and wanting to understand yourself better.

:EDITED: I noticed a few other posts on making out. Again, same rules apply. I'd be pretty turned off by watching my parents, or my grandparents, or my brother and his lady, make out. It would also repulse me to see people of certain groups do so. In case you're wondering, the elderly and the obese. I have nothing against those people as individuals, but I don't want to see them make out any more than I want to see family members make out, because I'm NOT attracted to them. It's not ageist or fatist (is that the term?), it's simply not being attracted to them. So if a person is repulsed by watching their family members OR gay guys make out? Not homophobic.
Making out is seen as sexual and intimate and is a different thing to chaste kisses and holding hands. Some people are uncomfortable with anyone making out around them, because of the level of intimacy implied in such behaviour.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

There are several degrees of homophobia, honestly.

I respect your honesty and I'm sorry whatever occurred in your childhood has left scars. I disagree, though, with you more or less saying low level/moderate homophobia is acceptable. It is not acceptable whatsoever. It's unhealthy, to the homophobe, to homosexual persons, and to society. Very unhealthy. We should all strive to better ourselves in the end and that means working at admitting to yourself you have internalized issues you need to deal with.

You do realise that you're coming off as more of a bigot than the supposedly homophobic people you're spouting about? They're made uncomfortable by gay acts of affection, but they are perfectly willing and happy to ignore that minor feeling of discomfort for the sake of the homosexual people involved. That seems reasonable to me.

Whereas what you're saying is that these people ought to change what is essentially, to them, a gut reaction. Whether that reaction is caused by an innate psychological aversion or societal indoctrination, it is still going to be really fucking difficult to get rid of it completely. And you're saying they should do that anyway, giving absolutely no reason why? "It's unhealthy" does not qualify as a reason because there is no backup whatsoever to that claim.

You would do well to accept something closer to this philosophy:

Here's my question: Is harmless homophobia alright?

Of course. Harmless homophobia is, tautologically, harmless. If something hurts no-one, but helps a person find happiness/comfort, then there is nothing wrong with it. Someone finding me and my fiancée to be an unsettling concept has as much right to that feeling as we have to be in love. I'm not going to stop them if they don't stop me; live and let live, etc.

Otherwise you're just causing a problem for other people. You're being intolerant, in other words. Tolerance does not mean being a blank slate with absolutely no preferences or aversions. In an ideal world, yes, we'd aim for something like this, but the fact of the matter is that human beings do not work like that. So what tolerance means, in the real world, is letting other people do what they want to do in spite of whatever preferences or aversions you might have.

 

[Daveman]

Yeah it weirds me out seeing two guys kissing. But that's my issue, not theirs. People cracking their knuckles makes me want to puke but I don't think we need to ban it.

 

[maninahat]

There are many things straight couples engage in that would make me uncomfortable but that doesn't mean I'm prejudiced against straight people. We all have different preferences, as long as we're not stopping anyone doing anything that isn't harmful then whoo hoo.

Good point well made. I remember Nick Griffin complaining about how gays in public "look creepy", to which a gay in the audience shouted out "the feeling is mutual!"

Spoiler: {For reference, Nick Griffin looks like this):

People have natural, instinctive reactions to certain situations, and some of them are unpleasant or negative. As long as they don't make important decisions off of the back of such behaviour or treat their disgust as universal/valid, keeping it to themselves, I don't see a problem.