What is it about Bioware that makes people insane?

[endtherapture]

KoTOR, BG2 and DA:O were all great games, among my favourites ever, but since 2010 Bioware has been a changed company with rushed games and dumbing down to the lowest common denominator.

Making a game function on a console controller with limited buttons is not dumbing down a game. It's optimizing it. And this is coming from an exclusive PC gamer.

Is Dragon Age 2 optimising a formula in Dragon Age Origins?

No. It's dumbing it down.

They didn't let us chose your companions armour. They essentially removed inventory management. They added some stupid dialogue wheel which makes dialogue a pick-the-colour exercise.
They didn't let you zoom out the camera. They added stupid wave based combat. They gave bosses "challenge" by giving them thousands of hit points as opposed to actual challenge.

Optimising it is changing the game so it's controlled more easier on a controller, perhaps by adding a radial menu, or making menus easier to navigate. You don't fucking remove inventory management for companions in the name of "optimisation". That's dumbing down.

Bioware admitted they dumbed the game down to appeal to CoD fans.

Do I have to bring up this again to show how fucking dumbed down Dragon Age 2 was?

Perhaps we could "optimise" the game by removing combat? And then remove dialogue. Yeah great idea.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Bethkesda games, whilst buggy, are eventually fixed by mods.

Um... I'm not sure about the rest of you, but having to get fan-made mods to fix a game sounds like a point against the game in any sane world.

Certainly not a big one. Bugs, unlike bad writing and fundamentally misguided design decisions, can be fixed.

Bugs are things that are objectively wrong with a game that everyone can see.

Bad writing or poor design decisions are entirely subjective and have no distinct definition. They are entirely up to personal opinion. I'm okay with someone saying they don't like a game, but the way this has been going on and on is just ridiculous.

Bugs don't drag down a game's long-term quality that much - most players never encounter them, and they will eventually be patched by the devs or the community. On the other hand, there's not much anyone can do about bad writing or bad core gameplay.

In other words, in a well-written book with typos, the typos don't interfere much with your appreciation of the book. In a poorly-written book with typos, the typos aren't what's causing the book to be bad.

 

[endtherapture]

KoTOR, BG2 and DA:O were all great games, among my favourites ever, but since 2010 Bioware has been a changed company with rushed games and dumbing down to the lowest common denominator.

Making a game function on a console controller with limited buttons is not dumbing down a game. It's optimizing it. And this is coming from an exclusive PC gamer.

Is Dragon Age 2 optimising a formula in Dragon Age Origins?

No. It's dumbing it down.

They didn't let us chose your companions armour. They essentially removed inventory management. They added some stupid dialogue wheel which makes dialogue a pick-the-colour exercise.
They didn't let you zoom out the camera. They added stupid wave based combat. They gave bosses "challenge" by giving them thousands of hit points as opposed to actual challenge.

Optimising it is changing the game so it's controlled more easier on a controller, perhaps by adding a radial menu, or making menus easier to navigate. You don't fucking remove inventory management for companions in the name of "optimisation". That's dumbing down.

Bioware admitted they dumbed the game down to appeal to CoD fans.

As a business venture, that seems rather sound.

So you don't have inventory management, and the dialogue is now on a wheel instead of on a list? You can't zoom out the camera to the same isometric viewpoint as the first game? Bosses take the MMO standpoint of "Lot of hitpoints, let's see how long you survive?"

Boo fucking hoo!

In fact, that's not even dumbing down a game. That's designing a different game style. I've actually thought for years that BioWare needed to try a different game style beyond "Let's see how long we can stretch Baldur's Gate past the point it stopped selling."

And by the way, if you think designing a game to appeal to people who enjoy Call of Duty is dumbing down a game to appeal to stupid people, then you're just a prick. Have fun in your fucking fallout shelter while you scream about how games are dead.

You know why Bioware is failing?. It's because it's not catering to it's fans. It's fans like deep adventure games, with inventory management and stuff. Much of it's audience are older people, or people who grew up playing complex RPGs. I'm personally angry because I don't want everything to be fucking simple. I also don't want everything to be like a fucking MMO. I don't like MMOs. I liked tactical combat about positioning, Dragon Age Origins gave me that, and DA2 ruined that.

I'm not saying CoD fans are stupid, but CoD fans...want to play CoD. They don't want to play a fantasy RPG. If they did they wouldn't buy Dragon Age and that's where Bioware is failing. They're abandoning their old fans to try and exploit a market that will never play their game.

And I fail to see how changing your games style half way through a series is a good thing like you say? If the next CoD game was a point and click adventure game there would be complete outrage. Even taking multiplayer out of the game would cause outrage.

And anyway variety is the spice of life. Why should all RPG games be like MMOs? Why should all Bioware games be like Mass Effect 2?

 

[Kahunaburger]

And by the way, if you think designing a game to appeal to people who enjoy Call of Duty is dumbing down a game to appeal to stupid people, then you're just a prick. Have fun in your fucking fallout shelter while you scream about how games are dead.

To be fair, Call of Duty is pretty infamous for "dumbed down" shooting, through mechanics that lower the amount of skill and player agency involved in gameplay. So when an RPG developer says "we want Call of Duty's audience," the community is in fact pretty justified in wondering if this entails the introduction of similar mechanics (minimized role of player skill, extreme linearity, emphasis on spectacle over substance, etc) to the ones we see in CoD.

Personally, I won't be screaming about anything in my fallout shelter because I'm too busy playing awesome games like Brogue, Grimrock, Witcher 2 EE, and, soon enough, Wasteland 2. Games in general are doing fine, and the RPG genre shows hints of being on the verge of a comeback. It would be nice if the people who brought us BG2 would be part of that comeback, but it's not like Bioware's the only game in town right now.

 

[RipperjackAU]

... There's Bioware's problem!

 

[Kahunaburger]

And by the way, if you think designing a game to appeal to people who enjoy Call of Duty is dumbing down a game to appeal to stupid people, then you're just a prick. Have fun in your fucking fallout shelter while you scream about how games are dead.

To be fair, Call of Duty is pretty infamous for "dumbed down" shooting, through mechanics that lower the amount of skill and player agency involved in gameplay.

To be fair, it's hard to be complex with an object that, in real life, amounts to "point the end at the thing you want dead and press the button." Call of Duty is simple because guns in real life are the easiest weapon to use.

Depth/complexity depends on [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q2EtUe1_NE] the shooter. [http://imageshack.us/f/525/armacontrols2vh3.jpg/]

I look at everything from the last few BioWare games that people ***** about, namely DA2 and Mass Effect 3, and I can safely say this:

None of these whiny, tantrum throwing, douchebags would be saying a word is "EA" wasn't stamped on the box. And that's even more pathetic.

The issues people have with the writing and gameplay of Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 are legitimate issues. Those games, particularly Dragon Age 2, have massive flaws in core game design and the writing, and players are entitled (see what I did there?) to their opinions about those games.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

None of these whiny, tantrum throwing, douchebags would be saying a word is "EA" wasn't stamped on the box. And that's even more pathetic.

This is yet another thread where the people criticizing Bioware are being totally reasonable and their detractors are throwing around insults. Every thread I've seen on the subject is like this. And for the record, people did complain about Bioware titles quite vocally in the pre-EA years, although the complaints have amplified with the growth of a wider audience. And perhaps with the shift in game quality, but I suppose that's begging the question. I actually do think the complaints are more visible because the audience is bigger.

 

[Imbechile]

For me, Bioware is that one dev that releases some okay-to-good games, some hilariously bad games, and gets praised to the sky for no apparent reason. Add to that a fanbase with a tendency to over-invest to an epic degree in the bad-to-mediocre romantic subplots, and you have a winning recipe for something that is fun to laugh at.

Exactly this. Thank you for sparing me all of the typing.

but for some reason, Bioware is not allowed to slip.

The are allowed to slip. Until Mass effect 2 and Dragon age 2 there was a lot of love for Bioware(like A LOT, especially on this website).
The problem is that Bioware are continiously slipping these 2 years. First it was Mass effect 2 with the cut stats, then came DA2(objectively a shit game) whom the press gave 5+ 10/10 scores. Now Mass effect 3's ending, ..... Add to all of that the numerous comments from Bioware and it's employees in which the act like self-righteous dicks and you will see from where all of the hate comes from.

 

[Pearwood]

Bioware have a niche appeal amongst gamers, they've been trying to reach a broader audience lately. That's probably a good decision for them but it still sucks for us fans who like the old way. And people don't take disappointment well on the internet.

 

[endtherapture]

You know why Bioware is failing?.

But its not failing. Its making tons and tons of money and making games millions of people like. The people who are complaining are not the people bioware is catering to. They are still doing fine but much like nintendo did with the wii they have moved on to a different audience.

Well it's failing to produce games without giant amounts of outrage.

 

[penguindude42]

Anything I would've said is down here.

... There's Bioware's problem!

 

[tippy2k2]

They are allowed to slip. Until Mass effect 2 and Dragon age 2 there was a lot of love for Bioware(like A LOT, especially on this website).
The problem is that Bioware are continiously slipping these 2 years. First it was Mass effect 2 with the cut stats, then came DA2(objectively a shit game) whom the press gave 5+ 10/10 scores. Now Mass effect 3's ending, ..... Add to all of that the numerous comments from Bioware and it's employees in which the act like self-righteous dicks and you will see from where all of the hate comes from.

Objectively a shit game? If that's not an oxymoron, I don't know what is.

Everything that you just said is subjective:
-Mass Effect 2 stat cuts; subjective, some people like the streamlining
-Dragon Age 2 a shit game; 100% subjective, I liked Dragon Age 2 a lot. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114732-We-Reveal-Your-Picks-for-the-12th-Game-of-Christmas (50 games were put in a pile to be voted by this community and DA2 was voted #12)
-Mass Effect 3 ending; subjective. While I'd agree that MORE people think it's shit than not shit, this doesn't make the game bad and there are some who like the ending

I said it earlier and I'll say it again: This is the vocal (and very loud) minority crying about how terrible Bioware is. The company still manages to sell a shit ton of product AND continues to win all these popularity contests.

The next game is going to be their big test since the ME3 ending might actually have the majority for people who don't like it. However, if I had to throw money down in Vegas for what game is going to be a big hit, I wouldn't think twice about throwing it down on Bioware (While I'm at this strange bookie taking video game bets, I'll throw a bet on Madden and Call of Duty becoming top sellers too, both games that the majority of this board loathe).

 

[Kahunaburger]

subjective

This argument always cracks me up. It's like the last refuge of the defenders of Dragon Age 2, Twilight, Eragon, etc. Of course value judgments are subjective. That doesn't mean that one thing you like isn't, according to commonly accepted standards by which fiction is weighed, terrible.

 

[tippy2k2]

subjective

This argument always cracks me up. It's like the last refuge of the defenders of Dragon Age 2, Twilight, Eragon, etc. Of course value judgments are subjective. That doesn't mean that one thing you like isn't, according to commonly accepted standards by which fiction is weighed, terrible.

What community are we talking about? If the community dictates "objective quality", then:

Mass Effect 2: 96 on Metacritic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect_2#Reception
Dragon Age 2: 82 on Metacritic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Age_2#Reception
Mass Effect 3: 93 on Metacritic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect_3#Reception

*I've included a link to Wikipedia for each if you want more opinions than Metacritic...8/10 (EDIT: Whoops, there's a 7.8 in there; well that's proof that Bioware sucks, right?) I believe is the worst for all three games from one reviewer.

Does that not work? How about rankings on The Escapist?

Mass Effect 2: 5 stars by The Escapist
Dragon Age 2: 5 stars by The Escapist (and ranked #12 in "Game of the Year" by the community)
Mass Effect 3: 4.5 stars by The Escapist
Bioware: Runner up in 2010, 2011, and 2012 March Madness contest (2009; can't find the full results but it got to the final two for sure there as well)

Does that no work? How about sales?

I can't find any "Official" numbers for any of the games but I'm sure we can all agree "A Shit Ton" as this number.

You can believe whatever you want of their games (and the company as a whole) but don't sit here and tell me that I'm hiding behind the "It's my opinion!" shield. I said it once...twice...maybe three by now and I'll say it again: Vocal Minority.

 

[Imbechile]

They are allowed to slip. Until Mass effect 2 and Dragon age 2 there was a lot of love for Bioware(like A LOT, especially on this website).
The problem is that Bioware are continiously slipping these 2 years. First it was Mass effect 2 with the cut stats, then came DA2(objectively a shit game) whom the press gave 5+ 10/10 scores. Now Mass effect 3's ending, ..... Add to all of that the numerous comments from Bioware and it's employees in which the act like self-righteous dicks and you will see from where all of the hate comes from.

Objectively a shit game? If that's not an oxymoron, I don't know what is.

Everything that you just said is subjective:
-Mass Effect 2 stat cuts; subjective, some people like the streamlining
-Dragon Age 2 a shit game; 100% subjective, I liked Dragon Age 2 a lot. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114732-We-Reveal-Your-Picks-for-the-12th-Game-of-Christmas (50 games were put in a pile to be voted by this community and DA2 was voted #12)
-Mass Effect 3 ending; subjective. While I'd agree that MORE people think it's shit than not shit, this doesn't make the game bad and there are some who like the ending

I said it earlier and I'll say it again: This is the vocal (and very loud) minority crying about how terrible Bioware is. The company still manages to sell a shit ton of product AND continues to win all these popularity contests.

The next game is going to be their big test since the ME3 ending might actually have the majority for people who don't like it. However, if I had to throw money down in Vegas for what game is going to be a big hit, I wouldn't think twice about throwing it down on Bioware (While I'm at this strange bookie taking video game bets, I'll throw a bet on Madden and Call of Duty becoming top sellers too, both games that the majority of this board loathe).

So are you saying that true objective judgment doesn't exist?

 

[tippy2k2]

So are you saying that true objective judgment doesn't exist?

No, true objective judgement does exist.

Does the game work?
Are there game-breaking bugs (or even a lot of little bugs that ruin the experience)?
Is there variety? (even that's a bit subjective as to "how much is enough")
EDIT: Objective things need to be provable

ANYTHING referring to how fun it is or how much enjoyment you get out of it is subjective (which all three of your arguments were based on this factor).

Just like it's my subjective opinion that Bioware is still a great company and the shots I took against the other "Fan favored three" are reasons that I don't like those companies as much (not hate, just like Blizzard, Obsidian, and Valve less than I could)

 

[Kahunaburger]

subjective

This argument always cracks me up. It's like the last refuge of the defenders of Dragon Age 2, Twilight, Eragon, etc. Of course value judgments are subjective. That doesn't mean that one thing you like isn't, according to commonly accepted standards by which fiction is weighed, terrible.

What community are we talking about? If the community dictates "objective quality", then:

Mass Effect 2: 96 on Metacritic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect_2#Reception
Dragon Age 2: 82 on Metacritic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Age_2#Reception
Mass Effect 3: 93 on Metacritic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect_3#Reception

*I've included a link to Wikipedia for each if you want more opinions than Metacritic...8/10 (EDIT: Whoops, there's a 7.8 in there; well that's proof that Bioware sucks, right?) I believe is the worst for all three games from one reviewer.

Does that not work? How about rankings on The Escapist?

Mass Effect 2: 5 stars by The Escapist
Dragon Age 2: 5 stars by The Escapist (and ranked #12 in "Game of the Year" by the community)
Mass Effect 3: 4.5 stars by The Escapist
Bioware: Runner up in 2010, 2011, and 2012 March Madness contest (2009; can't find the full results but it got to the final two for sure there as well)

Does that no work? How about sales?

I can't find any "Official" numbers for any of the games but I'm sure we can all agree "A Shit Ton" as this number.

You can believe whatever you want of their games (and the company as a whole) but don't sit here and tell me that I'm hiding behind the "It's my opinion!" shield. I said it once...twice...maybe three by now and I'll say it again: Vocal Minority.

I enjoy the fact that you're bringing up numerical ratings from some highly questionable reviews as if that will somehow convince me That One Thing You Like is good. I can point you to a wide variety of rave Twilight reviews of similar journalistic integrity to sources that are factored into Metacritic scores, but that won't make Twilight good by commonly held standards by which books are judged.