What is the balance between a challange or too easy/too hard ?

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370999

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Kahunaburger said:
+1 to the various points made about fake difficulty.

HP sponges are not hard, enemy waves are not hard, grinding is not hard, and ducking back into cover every half second is not hard. They're just tedious.
I always thought one of the most elegant game solution to this was Dragon age:Origins and turning off friendly fire at lower difficulties. It's incredibly simple and easy to implement mechanically but it does dramatically affect how tactic play out in the game.

I'm a huge pansy though so I like me games easy. At least for the first run through, I scale the difficulty up after a few playthoughs.
 

FoolKiller

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TestECull said:
If the enemy is harder to bring down, and you can't take as much damage before you die, the difficulty is higher. It's that bloody simple. Broken AI and/or bad level design, which is going to be every video you link to attempt to disprove that, does not change that fact.
Actually, the point being made is that people want a better challenge. It is true that it is harder, but not from a skill point of view so much as a patience point of view. Something like Gears of War just means I have to duck after every two shots instead of ten shots.

I just find these types of difficulty boring and tiresome.
 

Kahunaburger

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370999 said:
Kahunaburger said:
+1 to the various points made about fake difficulty.

HP sponges are not hard, enemy waves are not hard, grinding is not hard, and ducking back into cover every half second is not hard. They're just tedious.
I always thought one of the most elegant game solution to this was Dragon age:Origins and turning off friendly fire at lower difficulties. It's incredibly simple and easy to implement mechanically but it does dramatically affect how tactic play out in the game.

I'm a huge pansy though so I like me games easy. At least for the first run through, I scale the difficulty up after a few playthoughs.
Yeah, I agree. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of things Dragon Age: Origins does re: difficulty, but I think that adding/removing that additional layer of complexity is a really good idea.
 

Rheinmetall

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May 13, 2011
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FoolKiller said:
I think that no single one of these is to blame for a so-called too easy game. I just think that their uses need to be well thought out. I find that many game designers don't understand (or don't have the time to emphasize) the difference between difficulty and challenge.

The main issue is that while we keep mentioning all these problems, I have rarely seen any one come up with useful solutions. And any solutions that seem to be good, seem difficult to execute which would leave the game makers from using them.
I don't know if you have played Dark Souls, but actually it gives some solutions to these problems. It has the needed tutorial at the start, and that's all of it, from there on you have to discover things by yourself, no hints and no arrows, which I thought that worked pretty well. It's an open world game but it doesn't have any maps, still I never felt lost in the game, because the environments were very different the one from each other. No save points, because it had a constant autosave feature, but with a catch: you couldn't save and then load your progress, what was done could not be undone, which I also found as a great idea. Also it had a health bar, but there was no need to collect health items in your way, because you had a given number of healing items that would last for a good portion of the game and they were automatically refilled after a visit to a checkpoint. If it sounds too easy it isn't, because each time you recharged your health and healing items, all the enemies of the area respawned! :)

Besides Dark Souls, I can think of a few other games that offered some solutions:

Resident Evil games before RE Outbreak: Ink cartridges that you collected in the game and represented the number of saves that you could make. It was a balanced and good solution. Tomb Raider 3 was a variation of ink cartridges, because you could save anywhere you wanted in the world as long as you possesed a save crystal; good idea, but the problem was that the save crystals were scarce, which made the game really difficult towards the end, to a point that you needed to restart form the beginning only to make a better managament of the damn crystals. :(

Metal Gear Solid (definately the first one, probably all of them): You could equip your health items and as long as you had them equipped (and they hadn't run out) you had no danger of dying. Of course you had to constantly switch the rations with the key cards in the course, but I thought it was a small step forward beyond the classic med-kits that you used by opening your inventory each time.

Tomb Raider games made by Core, before the "lifting" of Crystal Dynamics. No maps also, and fairly open games too, especially TR 3 & 4. Again like Dark Souls there was no real need for maps, because each area had a very distinctive looks. Theoretically Uncharted, which for the time being is a linear game, in a future open world installment it could play perfectly without a map too, because of the great level of detail in the environments. In games like Silent Hill and Resident Evil maps are more necessary I agree, because it's the nature of the game: explore rooms, find keys, unlock doors etc. Though in the last area of Silent Hill, which was called "Nowhere" there wasn't any map either. This seemed frustrating at first, but with some patience you could make your way out.

Action-driving games, like GTA would be a pain without the GPS indeed.
 

Something Amyss

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Kahunaburger said:
If you'll read the post I was responding to, you will notice that the commenter in question was stating that "Well with the lack of instruction manuals and the demands of increased immersion, the tutorial needs to be there."
I already did. I still think it's dumb. Would it make you feel better if I commented to the prior post, too, rather than the economy of covering the two at once?
 

Something Amyss

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TestECull said:
You've got a game that isn't considered quite easy? I watched TB stream it and he was never in any danger either despite being on hardmode.
You mean the example that was okay with you up to the point that I pointed out your assertion of new strategies was wrong?

Yeah.

I can't really name a game where I've had to change strategies for a harder difficulty any time in recent history. If I thought for a while, I might come up with one, but it would certainly be the minority. Maybe I'm just super hardcore or something. Except, of course, I'm really not.

It's also kind of dumb to indicate this game is super easy. It's no easier than Oblivion or Fallout 3 or Gears of War, but people just run through it as fact. Nobody busts those game's balls; it's just a cop-out to whine about Amalur. It's especially dumb since, for all the complaints and boasting, only about 5% of people have actually got the Hard mode Achievement. Weird how EVERYONE cakewalked through the hard mode in under 20 hours with one arm tied behind their back, but so few relatively have actually unlocked the related award.

Yeah, so sue me for using the most recent example of a game I'm playing. It doesn't change much, since my prior play experience isn't really much different. And it isn't any more valid to toss out casual dismissal based on a game where the boasts don't seem to be backed by...Well, anything.

If you don't need to block 90% of the time playing a game about sword-and-shield combat, which I might remind you NECESSITATES USING A SHIELD TO BLOCK ATTACKS AS PART OF THE COMBAT DISCIPLINE, then chances are the game is broken. It'd be like a first person shooter that forgets to model reloading, something shooters grew out of 20 years ago.
I rarely block in most games with shields. Gee, they must all be too easy.

Try again, and drop the condescending bullshit this time. It just makes you sound like an arse, and I can't even attempt to take you seriously with you acting like that.
You mean, stop using the exact same tactics you're using? Gotcha. Nothing hypocritical about that.

Maybe lead by example. For example, despite the ridiculous comments you've made, I'm still taking you seriously. It'd be easy to decide you're just a joker and start in with massive intellectual dishonesty, but I'm not planning to. Perhaps behaving yourself would be more conducive to me listening to your proseltysing about behaviour.
 

Kahunaburger

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I can't really name a game where I've had to change strategies for a harder difficulty any time in recent history. If I thought for a while, I might come up with one, but it would certainly be the minority. Maybe I'm just super hardcore or something. Except, of course, I'm really not.
Halo's a pretty good example of how to scale difficulty. Smarter enemies require additional layers of strategy, as do turning on skulls. Even Dragon Age: Origins did something like this by turning friendly fire on, and that game was staggeringly inept in terms of difficulty balance otherwise. Many games don't require this, and, as TestECull said, it's a known problem with difficulty settings in gaming.
 

Launcelot111

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I feel like a lot has to do with relative damage these days. Look how everyone thinks that Zelda games are too easy these days, and in that case, the strongest enemy attacks will only do at most a heart of damage. Compare that to historically difficult games like Contra or Ghosts and goblins where you could only survive a handful of enemy hits over the course of the entire game. Conversely, if your attacks are too strong or too weak in relation to the enemies and their number or amount of damage, then that changes difficulty too. I feel that the most successful implementations of difficulty should demand more intensive use of skills or tactics rather than just changing damage or adding enemies.

A somewhat connected idea is not rewarding success enough. For example, Uncharted 2 has heavily armored guys with shotguns who march right towards you. Every other enemy can be quickly dispatched with a headshot, which is tough and demands skill. The armored guys ignore headshots and march on, eventually driving you out of cover, which is pretty much the only tool for staying alive. Or how Final Fantasy VII rewards you for staying alive with Limit Breaks which are very strong in relation to the enemies, but FF XII's equivalent are immensely costly in terms of MP and do very little damage against the millions of HP of later bosses. Showing skill or using the best attacks should be adequately rewarded or else you're just being cheap

What is difficult is often constrained to certain genres as well. Bullet hell games throw tons of attacks at you, but they counter that with tight controls and small hitboxes to make it tough but fair. Applying bullet hell attacks to a 3d action game is unfair difficulty because you are not given the same tools to deal with the attack. Just like how 3d playforming, or worse, 1st person platforming, is much worse because you lack the tools of perspective that allow Super Mario World or Rayman to demand tighter timing and reflexes.
 

Bostur

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370999 said:
Kahunaburger said:
+1 to the various points made about fake difficulty.

HP sponges are not hard, enemy waves are not hard, grinding is not hard, and ducking back into cover every half second is not hard. They're just tedious.
I always thought one of the most elegant game solution to this was Dragon age:Origins and turning off friendly fire at lower difficulties. It's incredibly simple and easy to implement mechanically but it does dramatically affect how tactic play out in the game.

I'm a huge pansy though so I like me games easy. At least for the first run through, I scale the difficulty up after a few playthoughs.
Agreed, although I think it's better to separate some features like friendly fire from the difficulty settings. Some older RPGs had a checkbox for friendly fire, New Vegas had its hardcore mode.

And my favorite example, Silent Service.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/silent-service/screenshots/gameShotId,307573/

It had reality settings that could be toggled individually. These kind of settings can be combined with traditional difficulty settings.