What is with all the disrespect for western animation?

[Atmos Duality]

Eh, I liked western animation back before the last of the original Warner Bros crew died off; they had some truly awesome shows with Animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain, et al.
Today, I find it difficult to enjoy western "Humorous" cartoons simply because the setup and delivery revolves around overly heavy handed cyncism (South Park), or having the central character/theme be extremely annoying (Family Guy, American Dad, Aqua Teen Hunger Force).
On rare occasion, I find a show that gets that mixture just right (Venture Bros, the new Futurama...usually).

normally it's japanese animation that doesn't get respect and Pixar is highly regarded.

Funny, where I'm from, it's the polar opposite among my generation. Western animation gets shit all over because it ISN'T anime.

There has never been an american animated feature that could be compared to the likes of Akira, Ghost in the Shell or Princess Mononoke.

Yup, didn't take long for that to happen. Well, I hear the "Anime vs Western" storm coming in again, so I'm out.

 

[Lionsfan]

What do you mean? I think over here (in my area of the US) it's the Anime and other Eastern Animation's that don't ever get any respect and are seen as horrible things

Same, hell one of the assholes who used to go to my school saw me watching Haruhi Suzuyumiya and decided that it made me a pedophile.

Yay for tolerance

Yup, you tell someone you watch Simpsons or South Park every week and nobody bats an eye. But you say you watch something Anime and everybody (most people) just get a look in their eye like you need to be kept away from everyone else. Even though it's the exact same thing, just different styles of animation

 

[Spencer Petersen]

There is plenty of strong western animation, although not much for kids shows anymore, but I think the real problem is that it has been ghettoized by the mainstream movie viewing public as a distraction that is not comparable to the "real" genres. While I wont say that there are animated movies that unambiguously belong in best picture, I will say that the genre deserves much more attention than it currently gets. The existence of the "Best Animated Movie" is somewhat of a veiled insult, its kind of like saying "Best Movie About Alens" as it adds a qualifier that no other movie category has to deal with besides best foreign film, which is also just as ghettoized.

As far as television goes, the whole McFarlane Sunday night bore-fest hurt the perception as a whole by abandoning the principles of unique setting, coherent jokes and likable characters and instead going for cliche racial profiling, preachy virtues and awful animation quality. The Simpsons took a tumble in the last 8 years, but at least those creators went on to make Futurama, which is probably the best animated television show on right now.

 

[Jonluw]

Because Ratatouille and Up are family/kids' movies.
The problem is that in western society, animation is aimed at children. It doesn't help that you use Ratatouille - a film about a talking rat that wants to cook - as an example of a great animation film. Sure, it might be well made and fun for people of most ages, but it does not tackle particularly mature subjects with any seriousness.
A better example to use would be Persepolis [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persepolis_%28film%29]. (Note that it actually lost the acadamy award to Ratatouille)
There's a difference between making an animation that's enjoyable for adults as well as the kids it's aimed at (My little pony) and making a film that is aimed at a mature audience, like many anime are (I'm assuming anime is what you're comparing it to).

Western animation may be very good at times, but as long as you can't make an animated movie without it being jokes mainly aimed at children for the most part, you can't consider the western animation industry "good" from an artistic perspective.

Basically this [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimationAgeGhetto], I guess.

 

[Kahunaburger]

normally it's japanese animation that doesn't get respect and Pixar is highly regarded.

I would say it's more of a mentality among western (aka American) audiences that animation is for kids because in their entire history of animation when was something made for adults that wasn't a comedy? There has never been an american animated feature that could be compared to the likes of Akira, Ghost in the Shell or Princess Mononoke.

Up.

Come to think of it, the import filter might play a role. There's a lot of terrible, terrible anime that never sees the light of day in America.

 

[tehferret]

I really don't like the claim that animation isn't for adults however it is, to quote a previous poster, a mentality that westerners have. Going way back to animation's early roots, it was never thought of with kids or adults in mind but was meant to entertain.

Things like Looney Tunes and Merry Melodies were bundled with serials, news reels and movies as it was meant to entertain an entire audience. Hell, the original intention was to advertise music owned by Warner Bros.

Studios make what they think will be profitable and they know that producing family friendly animated features (which tend to be cheaper than live action) will pull in vast numbers of children and families while an adult only action flick will make next to nothing.

It is a huge generalisation to say that western studios has never made something with adults being the key demographic. Beowulf being a recent example, I don't think anyone can claim that that movie would be suitable for 8 year olds (and yes, performance capture is, by definition, animation). The French movie Persepolis, the British film version of Watership Down, Animal Farm, South Park Bigger, Longer and Uncut, the DC animated line is more aimed at the teenage market and so on and so forth.

At the same time I don't think you can say that Eastern animation (and it would be best sticking with Japanese animation here) is made purely for adults. The Japanese tend to break their audiences down much more and target many more specific types of audience, which tends to be divided more by interest than age and they treat younger viewers with more respect. A previous poster suggested "Princess Mononoke" was made for adults (and while I cannot speak for the other films s/he mentioned) this isn't the case. Miyazaki see's his films as family films - amusingly he believes that it is not good for children to see more than one movie a year so when they do see one it should be fantastic - much like any Disney, or Dreamworks or Pixar movies you care to mention.

In my opinion it is a great shame that, here in the west, we see cartoons as something that is meant purely for kids (which isn't helped by all of the horrible, horrible stuff that is shown on Cartoon Network and the likes these days) it is a fantastic art form that has the potential to do anything, any genre, for any audience.

 

[tehferret]

I really don't like the claim that animation isn't for adults however it is, to quote a previous poster, a mentality that westerners have. Going way back to animation's early roots, it was never thought of with kids or adults in mind but was meant to entertain.

Things like Looney Tunes and Merry Melodies were bundled with serials, news reels and movies as it was meant to entertain an entire audience. Hell, the original intention was to advertise music owned by Warner Bros.

Studios make what they think will be profitable and they know that producing family friendly animated features (which tend to be cheaper than live action) will pull in vast numbers of children and families while an adult only action flick will make next to nothing.

It is a huge generalisation to say that western studios has never made something with adults being the key demographic. Beowulf being a recent example, I don't think anyone can claim that that movie would be suitable for 8 year olds (and yes, performance capture is, by definition, animation). The French movie Persepolis, the British film version of Watership Down, Animal Farm, South Park Bigger, Longer and Uncut, the DC animated line is more aimed at the teenage market and so on and so forth.

At the same time I don't think you can say that Eastern animation (and it would be best sticking with Japanese animation here) is made purely for adults. The Japanese tend to break their audiences down much more and target many more specific types of audience, which tends to be divided more by interest than age and they treat younger viewers with more respect. A previous poster suggested "Princess Mononoke" was made for adults (and while I cannot speak for the other films s/he mentioned) this isn't the case. Miyazaki see's his films as family films - amusingly he believes that it is not good for children to see more than one movie a year so when they do see one it should be fantastic - much like any Disney, or Dreamworks or Pixar movies you care to mention.

In my opinion it is a great shame that, here in the west, we see cartoons as something that is meant purely for kids (which isn't helped by all of the horrible, horrible stuff that is shown on Cartoon Network and the likes these days) it is a fantastic art form that has the potential to do anything, any genre, for any audience.

 

[Alon Shechter]

When I meet someone that DARES to diss on The Jungle Book, The Lion King or Bambi's animations I will....
Well with the new rules I'll get banned for saying what I'd do, so ya'll can imagine what I'd do to him.

 

[Shodan1980]

The X-Men cartoon, Batman, and ReBoot (end of series 2 onwards). There's your awesome western animation right there

 

[Artina89]

One of my friends looks down on western animation because it is not "intellectually challenging" enough, but I strongly disagree. If anything, I watch cartoons for escapism, I don't want to be taxed when I am watching a cartoon. Anyway, like I have said before, I don't have the energy to decipher the ending to Neon genesis evangelion. Give me The grim adventures of Billy and Mandy any day over anime. I don't want to offend anyone but that is genuinely how I feel. I overwhelmingly prefer Aqua teen hunger force, The grim adventures of Billy and Mandy, Archer and Lucy, the daughter of the devil over programmes such as Blackjack, Neon genesis evangelion, Bleach and Naruto. I do have a special place in my heart for Astro boy though, as I used to watch it before I went to school.

 

[Midnight Crossroads]

I think I heard it was like this:

Japanese animation was forced to grow up, so it often deals with more mature themes. Japan was too dirt poor to realize their vision using film, so they turned to animation to pick up the slack. It stuck around as the Japanese film industry evolved because everyone was used to seeing animation being used in such a way. This allowed animation to explore lots of new ground.

In the West, it wasn't so important because the US and, eventually, Europe had strong film industries. Animation, while it could be made for an adult, never had the prominence next to other works. It was mostly reserved for comedy, which is never given the respect it deserves, or Disney. There were a few smaller studios making mature films, but they were never held up. The people grew up, but the cartoons didn't, so they told themselves it was purely for children. Even today, there really isn't a place to put adult style cartoons. It would feel weird to see a serious cartoon in a prime time slot next to another serious drama. The best of the West that's not a major film is usually either about capes or stuff like Archer. Intelligent, but useless without comedy.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

It isn't just Western Animation. In North America, ALL animation is discriminated against. Wah wah, cartoons are for kids. Wah wah, all western shows are copying anime! Wah wah, all anime is turning kids into pedophiles. Wah wah, a cartoon winning best picture?! Not in our lifetime.


And that is just the social stigma. Then you get the weeaboos and Japanophiles who convince themselves that western stuff MUST be shit in comparison to the almighty anime, apparently ignorant of the fact that Osamu Tezuka was inspired by Disney.

Note that that last one only applies to the stupidest of people, like some of the fanatics on ANN, so don't get all riled up about it.

 

[demoman_chaos]

If you want good western animation, go back a few decades when it was not all CG. Things like Popeye, Betty Boop, Looney Tunes, Transformers, He-Man, GI Joe, Snagglepuss, Flintstones (the cartoon, not the cereal and vitamins), Jetsons, Hong Kong Phooey, Underdog, Tom & Jerry, Molly Moo Cow, etc. Also can't forget all the super heroes like Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Fantastic Four, etc.

 

[brunothepig]

You picked Ratatouille as an example? Really? You're on the right track, it is Pixar, but still.
Anyway, I don't really see a lot of disrespect for western animation. The only problem I see is a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that it's just for kids.

I'm with a few of the other posters. Eastern animation seems to get a lot more disrespect than western.

 

[Bleedingskye]

Because most of it is crap.


I mean, for crying out loud, when a show like Adventure Time is praised like crazy, I can't help but think that people are just that desperate for something good.

But it's not like it's all crap. Look at Avatar: The Last Airbender, or... um... I don't know, Spongebob isn't too bad, even though it's gone downhill since the movie.


I miss the days of Hey Arnold! and The Wild Thornberrys where you learned lessons while being entertained.

I can't understand Adventure Time. My daughter watches it and loves it, I just don't get it there are some hilarious little bits but it's completely ridiculous and really doesn't serve any purpose.

I can't wait for The Legend of Kora, or whatever the title is for the new Avatar series, I loved that show.

totally miss AHHH! Real Monsters and Rocko's Modern Life

 

[ZeroMachine]

Because most of it is crap.

The only company to output western animation of a good quality every time they release something is Pixar. Compared to them, most of it really is crap.

I mean, for crying out loud, when a show like Adventure Time is praised like crazy, I can't help but think that people are just that desperate for something good.

But it's not like it's all crap. Look at Avatar: The Last Airbender, or... um... I don't know, Spongebob isn't too bad, even though it's gone downhill since the movie.

It's just that, with very rare exception, children's shows never tackle mature subjects anymore, and most of the time when they do they do it horribly.

I miss the days of Hey Arnold! and The Wild Thornberrys where you learned lessons while being entertained.

For the record: I also dislike most anime. The only animes I really, really enjoy are Dragonball/DBZ and Full Metal Alchemist (not Brotherhood).

2 things

<youtube=CuuK7QQCkrw>
Not all other cg movies blow.

And why no brotherhood love. I mean yes they handle hughes badly, but the fight scenes are better and you get a bunch of new and interesting characters. I respect your right to have an opinion, but its a damn good ride.

Two responses:

Never said all others were crap. Hence "most".

Brotherhood's pacing isn't anywhere near as enjoyable for me as the original anime's, and Brotherhood's "jokes" (for lack of a better term) were too constant. The first had a good balance... funny moments, but overall, still very serious.

But it's all personal preference.

 

[Marik2]

[

Yup, you tell someone you watch Simpsons or South Park every week and nobody bats an eye. But you say you watch something Anime and everybody (most people) just get a look in their eye like you need to be kept away from everyone else. Even though it's the exact same thing, just different styles of animation

Its cuz of the weeboos, they ruin everything.

I hear more people complaining about anime having big eyes than I do about western animation.

Which is funny cuz anime actually took the big eyes from western animation