What pushed your buttons in Mass Effect?

[Amnestic]

Ever Played Baulder's Gate 2 (SOA) ? That was fairly none linear, and it definitely wasn't lower quality depth or story telling for it.... yes I know it's Old, but we're talking about story telling here, and that game is second to none..... well sort of.

People keep saying BG2 was non-linear, but it wasn't. It was linear. You started it, left Chateau Irenicus, did sidequests and built a party 'til you got 15k gold. Chose either Bodhi or the Shadow Thieves, do a few more quests, go to Spellhold then (Optional: Sahaugin kingdom occurs now) Underdark, then you're back up top to kill Bodhi, then to Suldanesselesselesslar to kick Irenicus in the goolies.

Everything else is just sidequests, the above is the storyline. Entirely linear conclusion.

Don't get me wrong, I love BG2 to bits and there's nothing wrong with a linear RPG, but let's be honest here and recognise things for what they are.

 

[Jandau]

Ever Played Baulder's Gate 2 (SOA) ? That was fairly none linear, and it definitely wasn't lower quality depth or story telling for it.... yes I know it's Old, but we're talking about story telling here, and that game is second to none..... well sort of.

Not only did I play Baldur's Gate 2, but I happen to consider it the best game ever made. However...

1. It was linear. At the very least as linear as the Mass Effect games. It has the basic "Bioware RPG" structure with a linear start and ending, while the player is allowed to undertake the various tasks in the midgame in the sequence he chooses. Sure, you can go about your business as you please after you exit Irenicus' dungeon, but eventually you'll end up in Spellhold and from then, it's on the rails until the end, with the only optional part being the Sahuagin City. Likewise, Mass Effect 1 allowed you to do the four major planets in the midgame in any sequence you want, and Mass Effect 2 allows you to recruit your party members and go about various assignments in any sequence you like.

2. Nothing transferred from the first game. You left Imoen as a Thief in BG1? Too bad, she's a Mage now. In this regard, Mass Effect 2 is lightyears ahead. Shadows of Amn also didn't transfer much beyond your gear.

The problem here is that the more Cause-Effect you try to put into your game, the more content you have to make for every eventuality. Baldur's Gate series avoided this problem by simply moving you to a new land with each sequel. Mass Effect 2 leaves you in the same Galaxy and tries to work the consequences of your actions from the previous game into the sequel. This is a hard thing to do and while it's easy for gamers to whine how they want a totally different game depending on their actions in the previous one, try seeing it from the developer's perspective...

EDIT:

*snip*

Curse you Amnestic, you beat me to it!

 

[LordoftheShy]

1st: Planetary exploration in the Mako as said numerous times by others. Most planets were just plain awful, way too mountainous and almost no flat lands or hills. So many of the interest points to scout or minerals to mine were specifically placed in the heart of pain in the ass territory. Now and then you would see a planet that just looked gorgeous and was a joy to drive across, but I only discovered 1 or 2 of those. Granted, it may not be realistic to have every alien planet look like paradise, but I got sick of looking at black and gray volcanic ash planets or planets so covered in snow that I could barely define the features of the landscape. The controlls of the Mako were also a bit fuzzy for my tastes, it really didn't feel like you were driving an APC, rather trying to steer a paper airplane.

2nd: Serious lack of auto-saves. The game almost never auto-saved. I mean, for as long as I can remember while playing games I've been anal retentive with saving. Save every room while playing Half-Life, in towns of RPGs saving after every purchase, changing a menu item and then backtracking to save. What started because I was afraid to lose my save progress became a compulsion. And then auto-saves started appearing in games. O so glorious! I could play the game and not have to manually save because the game would save for me in logically and relevant areas and at reasonable intervals of time.

And then there was Mass Effect... I didn't have any problems for awhile into the game. I played a bit of the main story and then once the galactic map opened up I did every side quest I could before starting a main quest (I'm just awful like that). I had no deaths, no problems. And then I started Noveria. Was loving it, just couldn't put the controller down. About 2 hours later, I accidentally stumbled into the boss room for the planet, thinking a different side room was the boss room. Started the fight, was wasted from all the biotics, and promptly died. Okay, that sucks. I didn't save before I entered the room, but I should have at least one auto-save reasonably close. Nope. None. Nada. Last auto save, was from before my actual manual save when I first landed on the planet... 2 entire hours... gone. Granted you can save at any time, but saving took awhile and was a bit of a pain to access from the menu, that and I was having so much fun I just didn't bother to pause the game and save.

Thankfully most games have auto-saves down by now, and Bioware fixed this issue, at least in Dragon Age where it auto-saves quite often and exactly where you would want it to. I haven't gotten ME2 yet, so hopefully it saves more often. Hopefully FFXIII has good save points in it as well. Because going for over an hour before you can save again, is just retarded in this day and age (I'm looking at you FFXII!)

 

[Knight Templar]

You know the moment I saw your title one thing popped into mind. My "Dead Scientists" experience? Uh, "Dead Scientists". In fact I think I only finished that twice, every other time I got stuck in a hole and went to blow up Geth instead. The Mako was a wonderful thing, the places where your drove it were not.

In fact the only places where the mako was fun to drive where hills and open plains, which I avoided whenever posssible out of a constant but well founded fear of Thresher Maws. I HATE Threshers they ruined the Mako for me.

It's not about whether I like a game or not, flooding the forums with threads about a single game is overkill.

Then why do you keep posting in these threads?

 

[Amnestic]

In fact the only places where the mako was fun to drive where hills and open plains, which I avoided whenever posssible out of a constant but well founded fear of Thresher Maws. I HATE Threshers they ruined the Mako for me.

Real Shepards kill Thresher Maws on foot, solo, with a pistol, on Insanity.

I mean, I would do it with my team but they always end up getting themselves killed.

 

[Grigori361]

I would disagree, firstly, things carrying over from the first game or not don't matter, we are talking about a Game here as in stand alone, not as in " Nothing transferred from the first game ".

Secondly, recall all those unique quests that depended on your class, as well as various consequences from them, Take the ranger quests, you can get kicked out of the town, the mage quests you can sacrifice peoples lives to make some kick ass gear, stuff like that, nuance stuff Non linear? I don't see you being able to slave off some faceless members of your crew in exchange for say Huge cash, or amazing one of a kind weapons. That's what I call choice.

Another thing, there was a lot more freedom about who to have in your party, as well as balancing the different people in your adventuring group, ever try to keep minsc and edwin in the same party too long? Try it, just watch.

And the romantics? Please.... you can have a KID with someone in that game.... or was that the expansion? mmm nevermind that was TOB,.. anyways... back to the non linear vs linear bits... yes it was linear at all essential story telling points, but there was a far bot more choice on how to do it then I saw in mass effect or really any game since.. I mean that completely optional harp stuff with jaheria? absolutely amazingly done. But you don't even have to drag that emotionally disturbed wench around... if you'd rather you can loot corpses and pillage magical dungeon ruins with edwim and korgoth.... much more freedom in my opinion.

But this really is all a matter of opinion and what each one of us places importance on withing the context of choice, as per most semantic debates we are both right so far as I'm able to tell.

Ever Played Baulder's Gate 2 (SOA) ? That was fairly none linear, and it definitely wasn't lower quality depth or story telling for it.... yes I know it's Old, but we're talking about story telling here, and that game is second to none..... well sort of.

Not only did I play Baldur's Gate 2, but I happen to consider it the best game ever made. However...

1. It was linear. At the very least as linear as the Mass Effect games. It has the basic "Bioware RPG" structure with a linear start and ending, while the player is allowed to undertake the various tasks in the midgame in the sequence he chooses. Sure, you can go about your business as you please after you exit Irenicus' dungeon, but eventually you'll end up in Spellhold and from then, it's on the rails until the end, with the only optional part being the Sahuagin City. Likewise, Mass Effect 1 allowed you to do the four major planets in the midgame in any sequence you want, and Mass Effect 2 allows you to recruit your party members and go about various assignments in any sequence you like.

2. Nothing transferred from the first game. You left Imoen as a Thief in BG1? Too bad, she's a Mage now. In this regard, Mass Effect 2 is lightyears ahead. Shadows of Amn also didn't transfer much beyond your gear.

The problem here is that the more Cause-Effect you try to put into your game, the more content you have to make for every eventuality. Baldur's Gate series avoided this problem by simply moving you to a new land with each sequel. Mass Effect 2 leaves you in the same Galaxy and tries to work the consequences of your actions from the previous game into the sequel. This is a hard thing to do and while it's easy for gamers to whine how they want a totally different game depending on their actions in the previous one, try seeing it from the developer's perspective...

EDIT:

*snip*

Curse you Amnestic, you beat me to it!

 

[Walkchalk]

The fact that it was Microsoft exclusive. Damn you Bioware for hating me and my Playstation ways!

 

[The Unskilled78]

the massive amount of loading
also, that (on the console version) you could only put one power on a hot-key at a time.

 

[olee12343]

The lack of smart, intelligent teammates. I mean, you can only shoot at the wall a number of times before you SHOULD realize that Shepard is getting his ass torn apart.

 

[ChipSandwich]

-Getting sabotaged with a pistol-only class
-Fighting in the Mako on Insanity
-Every gun is the same

Good game, though

 

[gigastrike]

Hi, I'm a kroagan. I'ma gonna turn on invincibility and charge at you at 20mph now. (I swear, nothing short of lift or neural shock stops that.)

 

[Tarkand]

The absurd amount of threads that it spawned on these forums..?

One of the greatest game of this console generation creating a lot of thread, who would have thought!

 

[RN7]

The game murdering contact glitches. And every other glitch, but mostly the contact glitches.

If I brushed passed a character or piece of terrain a little too fast, shepard and friends will get the notion that it's a great idea to...stand ontop of it! with no way down! besides dying or restarting.

And sometimes when one of my team gets a little too close to impassable terrain, they must take to the skies and freeze the game!

 

[Nabirius]

Most of the time driving the Mako was not that hard or annoying, but there was this one red planet that had nothing but massive mountains with a very short valley on the other side and then more mountains. And randomly the Mako just couldn't get up some of the paths, so I would have to go back down again the trip from one side of the planet to the other was infuriatingly long. And in the Feros colony mission I would hit terrain and instantly be sent into and abyss of death.

Also the game was to damn easy, in order to unlock the best weapons you have to have 1 million credits, a got some advice to just save up for the entire first play through if I wanted to get it on my first play through. Before the final mission I had over 4 million, just from killing things. I would just shoot a Geth and get 16000 credits or more and some equipment that I could sell.

Also humans were so underpowered compared to the other species. Tali got a shotgun, but she was also by far the best tech person in the game even if she only had pistols because she had all-but-impregnable shields even in her basic armor with no upgrades she got 6 bars. But no class demonstrates this better than the Krogan Battlemaster. They have both the Assault Rifle and Shotgun, which is probably the best combination in the game, and with out an achievement is only open to Soldiers. But they also most of the useful Biotic powers (with the exception of singularity, but they may have been missing lift as well. On top of all that they can wear Heavy Armor, what the hell?

But by far the most annoying part of Mass Effect was Tali. Let me be clear, I like Tali, she is my favorite character. What annoyed me was I only learned that she was not a romantic option after I had intentionally ignored the other two romantic interests. This was probably my fault but still, it ticked me off.

Although for that large rant I just made I still really liked Mass Effect, it was not with out it's share of problems but I was one of the few games that had such a good story.

 

[Amnestic]

I would disagree, firstly, things carrying over from the first game or not don't matter, we are talking about a Game here as in stand alone, not as in " Nothing transferred from the first game ".

Agreed. Irrelevant to whether BG2 is liner or not.

Secondly, recall all those unique quests that depended on your class, as well as various consequences from them, Take the ranger quests, you can get kicked out of the town, the mage quests you can sacrifice peoples lives to make some kick ass gear, stuff like that, nuance stuff Non linear? I don't see you being able to slave off some faceless members of your crew in exchange for say Huge cash, or amazing one of a kind weapons. That's what I call choice.

Those are choices. It's not non-linearity. You still follow the same path whether you save one guy or sell him for 500 gold. Unique class quests don't offer a non-linear experience, it's just optional sidequests decided by your class choice at the start (or not decided, if you mod the game to remove the class restrictions).

Another thing, there was a lot more freedom about who to have in your party, as well as balancing the different people in your adventuring group, ever try to keep minsc and edwin in the same party too long? Try it, just watch.

Again, not non-linear. It's just party choice. The only real story-affecting character was Yoshimo but that doesn't change anything but a few pieces of dialogue and adds an opponent to one fight you had to do anyway. Even your choices with Imoen didn't really affect the path of the game.

And the romantics? Please.... you can have a KID with someone in that game.... or was that the expansion? mmm nevermind that was TOB,.. anyways... back to the non linear vs linear bits... yes it was linear at all essential story telling points, but there was a far bot more choice on how to do it then I saw in mass effect or really any game since.. I mean that completely optional harp stuff with jaheria? absolutely amazingly done. But you don't even have to drag that emotionally disturbed wench around... if you'd rather you can loot corpses and pillage magical dungeon ruins with edwim and korgoth.... much more freedom in my opinion.

Again, sidequests. Having a bunch of sidequests doesn't make the game's story non-linear, that's not how it works. The story still follows plot to plot point in a predictable way. You get two binary choices along the way which can differ, that being either to pay Bodhi money or to pay the Shadow Thieves, and then to either go with Saemon Havarian and see the Sahaugin City (and then go to the Underdark) or just bypass it all and teleport to the Underdark.

Baldur's Gate 2 is a strictly linear game with one path and one path alone to the ending. If doing Jaheira's Harper quests let you commandeer a ship to Brynnlaw, or assisting the Cowled Wizards with their sphere would give you a teleport scroll to get there, or if doing quests for Helm and/or the Radiant Heart could earn you the trust of the temple enough to get you there...then you might have a point.

Hell, what happens if you could just get Imoen killed in Chateau Irenicus and cut off her entire part of the story? As it stands, her getting to critical health in the Chateau just has her run away. If we could kill her, it'd screw over the entire Spellhold plot. Bodhi would lose her chance at a new soul.

Maybe instead of infiltrating into the Underdark you could lure the Illithid and Beholders into a joint attack on the city to create distraction enough for you to simply fight through and steal the eggs, bypassing the whole malarky with the Drow. Maybe you don't even need the eggs. I mean, the main idea is that you're getting the eggs for the Dragon, right? Why not just side with the Drow to get to the surface? They clearly know a path. I bet the Svniflebrlerifnbberin gnomes do too. They're diggers after all. Hell, why do we even need to go to the Underdark? The only reason we ended up there is because of the binary Saemon/Portal choice. Couldn't we just teleport back to Athkatla? Over Chapters 2/3 I earned the respect of countless organisations from the Druids of Trademeet to the Priests of Helm to the Cowled Wizards to the Shadow Thieves. I even command an armed force from de'Arnise Keep. Why can't I have these guys scour the country to find what I need?

That's what it would mean to have a non-linear storyline. Baldur's Gate 2 does not have one. That's fine, really. I still love the game to pieces and hold it as one of the best ever.

 

[SpireOfFire]

mining for minerals.

the most tedious activity since getting a job in fable 2.

 

[Grigori361]

Not to rain on your parade, but you can just kill your way out of the underdark, try it some time, it's been a while, but I seem to recall killing that pompous dragon and using some items from her dessicated body to open the way back "upstairs", and to be honest I don't see a fundamental difference between these "choices" and your "non-linear" example except for the scale... my argument to make it perfectly clear is that the game BG2 (the ONLY BG 2, that dark alliance crap can kiss my hairy unshaven asscrack) has non-linear within it, not to say that it Isn't linear, but it's also non-linear... despite the structure of the words they aren't mutually exclusive entirely. I think 'non-linear' and 'choice' may perhaps mean more or less the same principal being applied on differing scales?

For example, you state that "If doing Jaheira's Harper quests let you commandeer a ship to Brynnlaw" it would qualify, but if it just got you to the same place I don't think it would count to you, because you consider the whole Sahaugin just a matter of choice, but think about it, it's just another way to get somewhere. I don't see a principal difference between that example and the "commandeer a ship" idea, yes all they are is "choices" but you seem to be rather selective, and arbitrary with those that qualify and those that do not. On the other hand, it may just be me.


On a side note... is that really how you spell it? I never could get the name of the deep gnomes down properly.

I would disagree, firstly, things carrying over from the first game or not don't matter, we are talking about a Game here as in stand alone, not as in " Nothing transferred from the first game ".

Agreed. Irrelevant to whether BG2 is liner or not.

Secondly, recall all those unique quests that depended on your class, as well as various consequences from them, Take the ranger quests, you can get kicked out of the town, the mage quests you can sacrifice peoples lives to make some kick ass gear, stuff like that, nuance stuff Non linear? I don't see you being able to slave off some faceless members of your crew in exchange for say Huge cash, or amazing one of a kind weapons. That's what I call choice.

Those are choices. It's not non-linearity. You still follow the same path whether you save one guy or sell him for 500 gold. Unique class quests don't offer a non-linear experience, it's just optional sidequests decided by your class choice at the start (or not decided, if you mod the game to remove the class restrictions).

Another thing, there was a lot more freedom about who to have in your party, as well as balancing the different people in your adventuring group, ever try to keep minsc and edwin in the same party too long? Try it, just watch.

Again, not non-linear. It's just party choice. The only real story-affecting character was Yoshimo but that doesn't change anything but a few pieces of dialogue and adds an opponent to one fight you had to do anyway. Even your choices with Imoen didn't really affect the path of the game.

And the romantics? Please.... you can have a KID with someone in that game.... or was that the expansion? mmm nevermind that was TOB,.. anyways... back to the non linear vs linear bits... yes it was linear at all essential story telling points, but there was a far bot more choice on how to do it then I saw in mass effect or really any game since.. I mean that completely optional harp stuff with jaheria? absolutely amazingly done. But you don't even have to drag that emotionally disturbed wench around... if you'd rather you can loot corpses and pillage magical dungeon ruins with edwim and korgoth.... much more freedom in my opinion.

Again, sidequests. Having a bunch of sidequests doesn't make the game's story non-linear, that's not how it works. The story still follows plot to plot point in a predictable way. You get two binary choices along the way which can differ, that being either to pay Bodhi money or to pay the Shadow Thieves, and then to either go with Saemon Havarian and see the Sahaugin City (and then go to the Underdark) or just bypass it all and teleport to the Underdark.

Baldur's Gate 2 is a strictly linear game with one path and one path alone to the ending. If doing Jaheira's Harper quests let you commandeer a ship to Brynnlaw, or assisting the Cowled Wizards with their sphere would give you a teleport scroll to get there, or if doing quests for Helm and/or the Radiant Heart could earn you the trust of the temple enough to get you there...then you might have a point.

Hell, what happens if you could just get Imoen killed in Chateau Irenicus and cut off her entire part of the story? As it stands, her getting to critical health in the Chateau just has her run away. If we could kill her, it'd screw over the entire Spellhold plot. Bodhi would lose her chance at a new soul.

Maybe instead of infiltrating into the Underdark you could lure the Illithid and Beholders into a joint attack on the city to create distraction enough for you to simply fight through and steal the eggs, bypassing the whole malarky with the Drow. Maybe you don't even need the eggs. I mean, the main idea is that you're getting the eggs for the Dragon, right? Why not just side with the Drow to get to the surface? They clearly know a path. I bet the Svniflebrlerifnbberin gnomes do too. They're diggers after all. Hell, why do we even need to go to the Underdark? The only reason we ended up there is because of the binary Saemon/Portal choice. Couldn't we just teleport back to Athkatla? Over Chapters 2/3 I earned the respect of countless organisations from the Druids of Trademeet to the Priests of Helm to the Cowled Wizards to the Shadow Thieves. I even command an armed force from de'Arnise Keep. Why can't I have these guys scour the country to find what I need?

That's what it would mean to have a non-linear storyline. Baldur's Gate 2 does not have one. That's fine, really. I still love the game to pieces and hold it as one of the best ever.