What role should player skill have in RPG combat?

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Eccentric Lich

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I really prefer action RPGs to turn based ones. I think it helps with immersion and makes combat more stimulating than just watching a character perform for you.

That said, I agree that stats should play an important role in RPGs since they are what makes your character what it is and helps determine what kind of enemies you can take on. Though with action combat, it also allows a skilled player to challenge the odds and take on stronger enemies for higher reward should you prove to be good enough at the game. Or if you're not good enough, just level up a bit to decrease the difficulty. It's the best of both worlds.
 

M-E-D The Poet

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Nalgas D. Lemur said:
Nyaoku said:
SageRuffin said:
Nyaoku said:
It's an rpg. A role-playing game. That means you are suppost to take turns. That means that reflexes should be out of the picture.
Excuse me, but... what?

A role-playing game is just that: playing a role. Thus, at its core, combat has little if any correlation with the core element (playing a role). By your definition, anything that has you take turns - from checkers to poker to even Mario Party - means that it's an RPG.

Anyone else reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. I can't wait to see this...
I don't mean to offend you but personally, I consider those to be RPG games as well. Mario Party's a mix of a lot of stuff though. Not really sure what to call it.
Those aren't RPGs. Checkers is a board game. Mario Party is basically the digital evolution of board games and the creator of the party game genre. What you seem to like or be talking about is turn-based games, which is a much broader section of games, so much so that it's not even a genre but more of a gameplay descriptor. Some RPGs are turn-based games. For a long time, most or nearly all of them fell into that category, but as computing power has increased over the years and more things can be calculated and displayed in real time, different variations on real time, turn-based, and hybrids of the two have been explored for many different genres.

You could try to argue that it's a matter of opinion, because the borders of what is and isn't an RPG are somewhat fuzzy, but you've gone so far that it's like arguing that RPGs should be considered a vegetable, or the color blue is an RPG. At that point it stops being a reasonable difference of opinion and is just silly. Heh.
what this guy said

I mean we've even had turn based shooters , I'm looking at you metal gear acid
 

Zen Toombs

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TehCookie said:
I like to have both in my games. If you have skill as a gamer you can take on an enemy at a lower level and if you lack all skill then level up to make up for it.
This is essentially my view. If there is too much focus on player skill then I tend to do poorly in the game. While I am pretty decent at twitch gameplay, I'm not fantastic at it. It is nice for the game to adjust to your skill set; if you're good at the gameplay, you can just breeze on through it and if you're bad at the gameplay, you can gain skill in and out of the game through something like[footnote]but less boring than[/footnote] grinding. Everyone wins!
 

Torrasque

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Well, player "skill" is just the stuff that you have control over at any point of the game. That can be when you time your swings in Skyrim, when you use your aoe abilities in Dragon Age, or if you flank enemies in Mass Effect. I'd say that combat skill is similar to non-combat skill in that the more you know = the better you are at the game, but combat skill is more flexible. If you make a random build in Skyrim, your combat skill can still make it work. The stats and points you put into abilities/talents/attributes/equipment do depend on skill as well, but that skill is more about knowledge of the game rather than "oh man, you made a heavy calvary unit instead of spearmen? damn dude you've got some skills!"

As for your question, I think it depends on the game.
If you are bad at combat in Skyrim, you should stay the hell away from dragons and forsworn.
If you are bad at combat in Ogre Battle 64, then you should try to out-stat the enemy as much as possible so it is a non-issue (even if your parties are 2 clerics with 3 imps or something completely silly)
If you are bad at combat in FFVIII, then you are going to have a very difficult game.

I think that if a game has combat in it and you beat it despite being terrible at the combat, either the game didn't do it's job and challenge you at a big part of the game, but that still depends on the game. I've had friends play WoW more than myself and never kill another player or very rarely kill something themselves, they just heal all the time or do other quests that don't require slaying X number of Y.
 

Bluelaughter

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Dec 7, 2010
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There really is too wide a definition of 'player skill'. As said above, different games will pander to different types of it. Eg action/reaction time skill, number crunching skill, higher-level strategy like figuring out tactics or attack plans, etc.

If player skill isn't a factor, then what's the point?
 

Zantos

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It kind of defies the point of stats if it's all skill based, but entirely stat based games can be incredibly dull. I like somewhere in the middle, I need to sort out my loadout and strategy, but it's weighed in mostly on my stats. The Witcher did a pretty good job of that I thought.
 

Gylukios

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Dec 3, 2008
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Xanadu84 said:
Should movies be funny or sad? Should food be sweet or savory? Should stories be short or long? To answer your question, skill should have ever imaginable role. Just in different games.
Challenge Accepted. Movies should always be funny, nobody pays money to see someone else's miserable life (at least I don't). Food should be savory, your drink should be sweet. Stories should be short, but feel long.

On Topic: The problem I have with stat and skill-build type games is that I always end up thinking about my character's builds before playing the game or while I'm not playing it so as to not screw up the build. If I have a build in mind, much of the game is spent in annoyance as I try to complete the build, and then the rest of the game is spent laughably cutting down everything in my way. One half of the game spent in annoyance and anticipation and one half spent in boredom means I didn't really get to play the game and certainly didn't enjoy it.
 

RJ 17

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Nov 27, 2011
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Yeah, gotta say that all combat systems will seem flawed to some people. Personally I found the combat system in Dark Souls to be absolutely atrocious with very poor controls and that's the primary reason I gave up on it, then there's plenty of people out there who will swear on their mother's graves that it's the best thing ever.

It all comes down to personal preference basically.
 

Shavon513

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I wasn't a huge fan of the Kingdoms of Amalur demo, either. It wasn't the button mashing, flippy style of combat that turned me off, however. I couldn't get into the story, get attached to my character, and the game felt...cartoon-ish, almost as if it was a game meant for kids. In fact, it's potentially a good way to introduce young teens into rpgs.

I think rpgs should be geared towards players who love story, characters, worlds and want a lot of room to create their own journey in the game world (without actually being the developer!). The game shouldn't reward people who have better reaction time (go play a shooter or some button mashing action or platforming game, instead, if that's what you're looking for.) or have accurate, twitchy fingers. Rpg's should be stat and skill based. The player should figure out from codex, journal, and mission entries and logs how to build a good character, how to solve missions and puzzles, without the game handing them the answers.

Just imo, of course. Games aren't quite built this way anymore, it seems, anyway.
 

ecoho

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i think the first fable had it right. make the game reward being skiled but make it so its not required to be skilled to play.
 

Naeras

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My favorite RPGs are the ones where the combat actually required skill, with stats and weapons being either a strategic choice or a carrot on a stick. See Tales of Symphonia and Dark Souls as examples.

The turn-based approach can also work if the tactical elements of the game are up to it, but other than that, deciding combat based on stats alone is just boring, imo. Dice rolls shouldn't win the combat. Players using the characters and the class correctly should win the combat.
 

Condiments

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I'm quite frustrated with the gaming community on this subject, as lot of people would opt to say, "Yeah numbers and strategic thinking are boring, lets have dumbed down hack and slash games with some dumbed down RPG elements."

More character driven RPGs abstract direct player involvement from things like swinging your sword because the gameplay wants you to focus on different things. Its inherently more cerebral in nature, akin to strategy games. You certainly don't complain about not being able to control every unit's firing rate when you're playing starcraft, because you're too busy building bases, and ordering troops around.

Lets see more diversity in our games, and less of the same ol' crap. I like action games to, but I don't like playing them all the time. Get out of your gamer box for once.
 

Something Amyss

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somonels said:
The point of RPGs is they use the character's skill instead of yours.
So, just out of curiosity, do you intentionally make mad decisions when a character has low intelligence or a similar stat?
 

Xaryn Mar

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Zachary Amaranth said:
somonels said:
The point of RPGs is they use the character's skill instead of yours.
So, just out of curiosity, do you intentionally make mad decisions when a character has low intelligence or a similar stat?
I for one do. That is what roleplaying is after all.
I do the same when tabletop roleplaying.

As to the OT: The players skill at twitch/targeting etc. should not play any role in a true RPG. The stats and abilities of the character(s) you are controlling should. After all you are not playing yourself but the character.
 

Duskflamer

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The only player skill that should come into play is the player's ability to analyze the situation and direct their characters accordingly, as well as properly preparing their characters before a battle. Leave me needing to be accurate to the shooters, leave my needing to memorize attack combos to fighting games, just let me be the general commanding my troops, and let the troops' ability determine the outcome of my decisions.
 

DementedSheep

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Depends on the game. I usually only like heavily stat based combat if you are controlling an entire party.
When they blend rpg and action I don't mind damage, critical hit chance, whether or not you can use a weapon, cooldown times, how easy it is to hit (for example crosshair sway) and of course which skills you have access to being stat based but I hate it when you line up a shot or hit someone in the face with a sword but it misses because of a dice throw and I prefer to be dodging and blocking myself.
 

TD_Knight

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Dec 22, 2011
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Depends on what type of an RPG you want. And since the term 'RPG' means a lot to different people, you're probably not going to get a great deal of consensus on the whole skill-based vs stat-based gameplay argument.

Someone who mainly plays turn-based RPGs or RPGs with pause and play mechanics would probably be opposed to skill-based gameplay, since they'd feel 'true' RPGs were the ones they played way back on the PC in the 90s and early noughties.

Also, the definition of 'skill' seems kind of loose.

You could have a great deal of skill when playing puzzle games, but less so when playing some sort of arena-FPS.

Likewise, you could be skillful at number crunching the heck out of some D&D-esque RPG until your character/party is a hilariously broken, Cthulhu slaying wrecking crew, but if you have terribad reflexes and hand-eye coordination then you're not going to be good at lightgun games.