what would be the perfect moral choice/karma system?

[tiredinnuendo]

We already have the perfect karmic system. MMO's.

Your appearence doesn't change and the things that you're capable of stay broadly the same, but if you're a dickhole, you're only going to get to hang around other dickholes. If you ninja, you don't raid.

MMOs are admittedly a very tribal society generally, and some tribes tolerate more than others, but if you make a bad name for yourself it sticks with you and there are consequences to that.

The problem with preprogramed responses to different actions means that the only impact a moral choice system really has is that you're forced to replay the game to see all the cinemas. How you act determining who you are is something that requires a living, breathing society around you and the inability to repair it with the Wand of Save/Load.

- J

 

[soren7550]

Leaning on what Yahtzee has said before, most karma/moral choices games has is just too black & white. The choice is either too good or too evil.

The only game that I've seen that has some middle ground when it comes to choice is Mass Effect.

 

[A random person]

It's simple: give NPC's reactions to certain things you do. If you try to kill someone, they will try to defend themselves and other people present will also try to defend the person you tried to kill. Some people, for whatever reason, might help you in trying to kill said someone. This would carry over to other actions; having people do certain things in response to whatever you do. And while there would be no karma meter, you might develop a reputation as good or bad in the game.

 

[Irridium]

Wow your a bastard lol. I hate being bad in games idunno why and I hated anderson even more

I am a bastard, and I love every second of it.

I fixed it. I opted to do the opposite.

Spoiler: I..

saved the council but still put Anderson in charge. I couldn't bring myself to kill the council.

Spoiler: I also...

have many variations of the end game where either Udina or Anderson is elected or in charge of everyone when the counsel dies. I'm going to have some fun with Mass Effect 2

 

[Soxafloppin]

There should be a karma bar, that goes from one to twenty, and the game should have twenty endings.

 

[Beltom]

The only game where i've seen some good moral choices are in Fallout 3. In "The Pitt" you have to:

Spoiler

decide whether to kidnap the slaver leader's baby daughter, who holds the key to the cure for some weird disease they have there, or leave the baby and trust the slaver leader when he says that he will distribute the cure when it is ready

Also in the "Oasis" quest you have to:

Spoiler

Decide whether or not to do as Harold asks and kill him, side with the one treeminder and stunt his growth, or side with another treeminder and increase his growth.

Those events would have been perfect if it wasn't for the fact that Fallout 3 labels some choices as evil and other as good, when they can interpreting as either from diffrent points of view.
I think that we need more moral choice encounters like those mentioned above, but don't tack an arbitrary "this is wrong and this is right" effect onto your decisions. Instead, just change the way in which certain NPCs react to you after the event, e.g: those who thing you did good praise you and will help you, while those who think you did evil will shun you and refuse to aid you.

 

[DreamKing]

We already have the perfect karmic system. MMO's.

Your appearence doesn't change and the things that you're capable of stay broadly the same, but if you're a dickhole, you're only going to get to hang around other dickholes. If you ninja, you don't raid.

MMOs are admittedly a very tribal society generally, and some tribes tolerate more than others, but if you make a bad name for yourself it sticks with you and there are consequences to that.

The problem with preprogramed responses to different actions means that the only impact a moral choice system really has is that you're forced to replay the game to see all the cinemas. How you act determining who you are is something that requires a living, breathing society around you and the inability to repair it with the Wand of Save/Load.

- J

I would think that this would only apply to other players. Out of the games I've played, the NPCs still repeat the same few lines over and over and there is no way to tell if someone is a jerk or a saint. Mostly likely, unless you are following someone or met up with them by some freak chance, your experience with most people in a MMO is going to very limited. First impressions aside, we can't tell what else they are doing in-game.

I think that Fable II's moral choice system was a step in the right direction. You could be saving slaves and killing bandits but you could be corrupt and leech the money off of your tenants. The only bad thing was that no matter what your alignment was, the villagers did nothing but comment on how evil/good you were and there was little change in the enemy types.

I think that there is such a stark difference between moral choices is because of the basic rules of civilization affect the most of the choices in games today. Start going to grey areas, people might start to complain that they want to play as an evil character but find themselves playing as a good character and vice versa.

 

[RebelRising]

I think that, as far as RPGs go, a system based on personality or approach is superior to a moral choice system. Think of it like this:

Moral Choice:

Good/Bad - Good guys get the most benefits, and bad guys get to kill more people, but ultimately receive less benefits. You end up polarizing a number of people with exact opposite moral persuasions. End up with only slightly differentiated conclusions at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Personality/Outlook:

Hard-lining/Manipulative/Appeasing/Direct/Beating-around-the-bush/Intimidating/Sympathetic/Charming/Soft-spoken/Evasive/Sarcastic/etc. - You have a lot more outcomes. Conversations are more varied, you can appeal to wider range of personalities, and you can combine certain aspects to build up stronger alliances each time.

 

[iblis666]

the system from neverwinter nights 2 wasnt bad but really needed more choices, some things should have had more impact, and you should have been able give you intent choices such as "Sure i will help you kill that evil group of demonic god worshipers after all its what any good person would do"(after all i really want to bathe in their blood, weaken their evil god for my evil god, and take all their treasure)

 

[LordCraigus]

There should be no 'system', just give the player the moral choice with no in-game rewards/penalties for making it, this is the only way to make sure the choice is dictated by the player's morality alone.

 

[jaeger138]

Well, I'm not sure that Karma systems will ever work. Our conscience and 'moral compass' relies on us being put in a situation where we need to choose based on our ethics. A videogame is too far removed for us to care. No matter how much we refer to the character we control as 'I' it doesn't make us fell like we're in the game. So in that world, we couldn't care less about whether what we do is good or bad, it more often depends on the rewards, either in-game or in terms of fun. We often choose the evil option because we know it's unnaceptable to do so in real life, but in a videogame we can just start over if we didn't get as much xp as we would have gotten had we opted to help the kid cross the road.

If we want to improve karma systems though, I think that a character has to be built by the player ground up. We choose the personality from the start and the experience changes based on that personality. Rather than making a choice of whether or not to be bad or good, we're attempting to keep within the character's personality. For example, if we make a character that is a saint and do something bad, the consequences are much worse than if that character was already bad. And once you build up a reputation based on your morals there's no escaping it by doing a few nice things. This way, the game experience is different every time you create a different personality for your character. It's not as dynamic in terms of changing the experience in-game but it means a different experience each time.

Also, widening the possibilties from saint or sinner would be good. Maybe we do something bad and good comes from it or vice versa, but in it's current form, karma systems often only give us the two options, and it's unrealistic and dull. Maybe I want to help the kid cross the road, but he gets hit by a car and everyone thinks I did it. Maybe I kill him and steal his items and tell everyone he got hit by a car, they mourn him and I'm rewarded for trying to save him even though I'm the one that caused the grief. Maybe my character feels so guilty that he has an adverse side effect for a few in-game days, like panic attacks or hallucinations. It's by no means perfect but I think it's an improvement.

 

[HotShooter]

Make it so that there is not meter but that each choice made something change beside abilities, as well as being able to make more than 2 choices that are as simple as black and white, but be able to make choices that weren't nearly as clear cut. Also, being able to change being good or bad near completely with a simple choice would be nice, such as being really good to people so they trust you but in the end make a choice to kill them all, or be bad to get close to the antagonist but then in the end choose to overthrow them. I kind of liked Shadow the Hedgehog's choice system in that you could do what I stated above but the fact that the endings (not the real one) had to be good or bad made it flawed.

 

[IxionIndustries]

One that has thousands of choices, so you don't wind up with just black & white.. Only shades of gray..

 

[the9ame]

Not to put a downer on the whole thing but karma systems are a load of horse shit. Gaming generally means that when you go on missions you have to kill people and steal things thats the black and white of it and if you do that in the real world its "bad" karma regardless of whether it helps you save the worldz and all that other good stuff.

 

[Random Argument Man]

I would like to see the Good, bad and neutral element mixed with the subtle, passive, chaotic element in an RPG.


I think it would bring a fresh feeling to the moral system than being a saint or a douche.

 

[barryween]

Mass Effect 2 should have a good, in depth one. I want a karma system that really matters, one where your character will only think of answers based on Karma, so bad characters can't say good stuff (unless they lie) and I want games to change dynamically based on karma, like missions and stuff.

 

[Nageck]

The best way to do it would to be to apply more consequences to the right choice. For example, in Fallout 3, whenever you finish a quest it almost always finishes the same way regardless of the choices you made. In a game with a moral choice system someone who always picks the moral high road should have a weaker character, meaning everyone will have to pick the ethically wrong choice sometimes or risk losing the game.

 

[KapnKerfuffle]

My personal preference is
- Have being good be a bit harder than being bad. Being bad should be the easier, more seductive side. One game that really held to this was Black and White. It was a right ***** to be super good.

-Have the world change in a very tangible way as a result of your actions. If you do stuff for an evil god, let there be more monster appear and terrorize the land. Let the sky get darker. Have tyrant's empires expand. Have whole bands of mercs come after you. Have sobbing, misery all around as a result of your bastard-ness.

- Have more dialog choices. Most people agree, one of the frustrating things about Fallout 3 was you dialog choices were short little snippets of either do-gooder or douche-nozzle. No shades of gray. I think the old Baldur's gate dialog trees did this best. You should have the option of surly anti-hero or chipper, two-face sociopath. And I really don't mind if the game doesn't have an audio response for every answer. Text is just fine if it's more interesting.

 

[Tales of Golden Sun]

I don't think there will ever be a good karma system.
Complicated things like 'good' and 'evil' can't be measured.
Heck, just try to define them! It's impossible!

Also, hidden motives can't be judged, because they are hidden.

For instance:
Saving people from robbers and defeating huge monsters will make you a hero in the people's minds. However, they just don't know that you're doing it to gain power so you can smuggle drugs or whatever. Any karma meter would say you're next to Buddha, whilst you're actually a dirty bastard.

Or:
The entire world sees you as a monster that should be exterminated because you've killed a lot of people, puppies and kittens. However, the world doesn't know that you're doing it to allow your once hated race to be accepted by the rest of the world, because a common enemy unites. A karma meter would say that you are pure evil, whilst you are actually sacrificing yourself for your people, and thus are a true hero.

 

[CmdrGoob]

The game that I think has the best morality and karma system I've ever seen is The Witcher, because it doesn't have a morality or karma system. It gives you important decisions but doesn't boil them down to some stupid, facile black and white good vs evil choice so it can give you points and hold your hand and tell you if you're doing good or evil. You have to figure out what the moral significance of your actions are yourself.