What's the line between a sex object and a sexual/sexy character?

[DrOswald]

This is interesting. I'm attempting to compile a small database of female game characters. Any examples I should be considering, people?

[edit]

OK, I've had a crack at this. Since "attractiveness" and "sexualisation" are usually synonymous when talking about women in media, I've treated then as interchangeable. Likewise, I'm aware that "agency" in gaming is difficult to quantify as these are fictional characters we're talking about: their actions are predetermined; their appearance isn't accidental or their own choice, it's determined by the dev team, and so on. So, I've tried to gauge their perceived or presented agency of the character in the context of the game they appear in. Fighting game characters are tricky as they're hugely capable, yet spend half their time getting beaten up... anyway, here's my attempt.

Spoiler: Grid

Spoiler: Analysis

Thoughts?

Interesting idea, but very much incomplete. You missed all the sexy villainess characters, for example. Cia springs to mind.

Also, you massively miscategorized Zelda. She is, at very least, neutral in terms of active/passive, and that is only averaging it across all the games. In TP, for example, Zelda Leads the armies of Hyrule against Ganondorf. In OOT she spends 7 years independently fighting Ganondorf and is only captured in the very last moments of the game. In WW Zelda is a pirate captain, saves link more times than link saves her, is in generally a complete badass, and can even claim half credit for the final battle with Ganondorf. Zelda is hardly the passive character you have put her down as.

But in general, I think you did pretty well. It would be interesting to get a graph of male characters also.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

To think that a 3d render in a computer program is anything other than an object is silly.

 

[Emcee_N]

To think that a 3d render in a computer program is anything other than an object is silly.

No more so than any other fictional character whose every word and feeling and action is scripted. The great characters of literature only exist officially as words on a page, maybe a few pictures if the book is illustrated - so we dismiss their every motivation and thought and call them objects?

 

[DrOswald]

You're in luck. Anita is going to explain it to us all in her next video, entitled "Fighting Fuck Toys"

Spoiler

Apparently she's not a Bayonetta fan.

Sarcasm aside, I'm actually quite looking forward to this. Hopefully she will actually engage with those who think that (rightly or wrongly) that Bayonetta is a progressive character rather than just say "OMG her hair flies off when she does a finishing move".

Okay, this is something that's been bugging me for a while. Nothing to do with you in particular, just something I keep seeing and can't figure out.

Why does everyone keep calling her "Anita"? Do people not usually refer to public figures using their last names? You don't call President Obama "Barrack".

I can't speak for everyone, but I have a really hard time spelling Sarkeesian without it looking up.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

To think that a 3d render in a computer program is anything other than an object is silly.

No more so than any other fictional character whose every word and feeling and action is scripted. The great characters of literature only exist officially as words on a page, maybe a few pictures if the book is illustrated - so we dismiss their every motivation and thought and call them objects?

That is what they are, in a matte of speaking. Pieces to be moved about in order to tell a story.

 

[Guerilla]

There is no line because it's all made up bullshit. Feminists for years have been trying to demonize male sexuality by treating it as something dirty or immoral. Being attracted to a female because she has big breasts isn't bad, it's natural and completely normal. We like attractive women because they're humans we can interact with, if they were objects we wouldn't be. Some men are only interested in sex, some others mainly in relationships, neither group is worse than the other and both still care about how attractive a woman is.


So let's talk about videogames. SJWs and feminists are now using this same tactic to shame gamers and creators. Core gaming being mainly for males and made by males naturally has some games with attractive women. Apparently this is supposed to be controversial because God forbid men embracing their sexuality and making media that panders to their personal preferences, that's obviously immoral and shameful. So there comes the insulting accusations about viewing women as objects trying to guilt men to suppress their sexuality and be exactly like feminists want them to be: Neutered.

 

[DrOswald]

LOL leave it to gamers to diagram sexism. As amusing as it is I actually do like the chart and even agree with it for the most part. Would be interesting to see it with more characters added in.

Heh, thanks. Actually I'd quite like to do a "serious" version using much more data. I'd be happy to take on board any suggestions for more female characters you can think of, I just limited this to the first 30 or so that came to mind.

BTW in my experience Alex Vance is generally regarded as more attractive than Peach or Zelda. Or at least I see more people post about how she is sexy yet casual and rarely see peach or zelda come up.

Yeah, it's a bit subjective, and I suppose I'd need to let people vote on it to get an average placing. Alyx is definitely a "girl next door" kind of attractive but that appeals more to some people than Zelda's very stereotypical prettiness, I suppose.

LOL leave it to gamers to diagram sexism. As amusing as it is I actually do like the chart and even agree with it for the most part. Would be interesting to see it with more characters added in.

Heh, thanks. Actually I'd quite like to do a "serious" version using much more data. I'd be happy to take on board any suggestions for more female characters you can think of, I just limited this to the first 30 or so that came to mind.

BTW in my experience Alex Vance is generally regarded as more attractive than Peach or Zelda. Or at least I see more people post about how she is sexy yet casual and rarely see peach or zelda come up.

Yeah, it's a bit subjective, and I suppose I'd need to let people vote on it to get an average placing. Alyx is definitely a "girl next door" kind of attractive but that appeals more to some people than Zelda's very stereotypical prettiness, I suppose.

Nariko from Heavenly Sword active/sexy. Same with Faith from mirrors edge but I bet she would fall mid-tier. Chloe and Elena from Uncharted would probably be attractive/ passive. Alpha Protocol's women would be more passives ranging in attractiveness based on players. Ditto with the inclusion of both Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

That would be a lot of work. Would be kinda cool to see where players voting ranked them as well as their roles.

I toyed around with the idea of blogging about 2 years ago and I still have the page. I could set up polls for a new character each week and we could collect data slowly like that. I would need some help deciding on characters, finding some pictures to post and ironing out the details.

 

[Emcee_N]

To think that a 3d render in a computer program is anything other than an object is silly.

No more so than any other fictional character whose every word and feeling and action is scripted. The great characters of literature only exist officially as words on a page, maybe a few pictures if the book is illustrated - so we dismiss their every motivation and thought and call them objects?

That is what they are, in a matte of speaking. Pieces to be moved about in order to tell a story.

And yet such characters are remebered for years, decades, centuries, even millenia.
Fact is we get invested in fictional characters, we feel for them or about them.
If the only thing we're meant to feel about them is lust, that's what I'd classify as a sex object.

 

[Hectix777]

This is interesting. I'm attempting to compile a small database of female game characters. Any examples I should be considering, people?

[edit]

OK, I've had a crack at this. Since "attractiveness" and "sexualisation" are usually synonymous when talking about women in media, I've treated then as interchangeable. Likewise, I'm aware that "agency" in gaming is difficult to quantify as these are fictional characters we're talking about: their actions are predetermined; their appearance isn't accidental or their own choice, it's determined by the dev team, and so on. So, I've tried to gauge their perceived or presented agency of the character in the context of the game they appear in. Fighting game characters are tricky as they're hugely capable, yet spend half their time getting beaten up... anyway, here's my attempt.

Spoiler: Grid

Spoiler: Analysis

Thoughts?

Personally, I feel Zelda should be higher on the list.

Wait is the active/passive axis referring to the player's control or they control themselves in the plot. Because Zelda does a hell of a lot more than Peach ever does.

Also on a side note, I would have included both Morrigans: Dragon Age Morrigan and Capcom Morrigan. One's a succubus and the other is a witch but sex appeal is a critical factor to them in some way.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

To think that a 3d render in a computer program is anything other than an object is silly.

No more so than any other fictional character whose every word and feeling and action is scripted. The great characters of literature only exist officially as words on a page, maybe a few pictures if the book is illustrated - so we dismiss their every motivation and thought and call them objects?

That is what they are, in a matte of speaking. Pieces to be moved about in order to tell a story.

And yet such characters are remebered for years, decades, centuries, even millenia.
Fact is we get invested in fictional characters, we feel for them or about them.
If the only thing we're meant to feel about them is lust, that's what I'd classify as a sex object.

And yet, they are still ultimately objects.

 

[Mid Boss]

Good question. What separates a character who is designed to be just a sex object between a character that owns and is comfortable with their sexuality? I know the Bond films use to be seen as pro-feminist because they women weren't afraid of sex. They weren't afraid to do it with people they wanted to simply for the pleasure of it. This was in a very pro-sex decade in our nation. But then the nation's views on sex swung back around to the "You're a slut if you don't cover up and if you enjoy sex" so many feminists turned on the Bond films saying that the women weren't empowered and were just there to be masturbation material.

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

I think if I just posted a picture of my penis, the viewer would have learned ...*snip

I don't think a picture of your penis could tell me more about you than the pictured The Kodu provided. I have never played DOA because I don't care about fighting games. However, I would have guessed just from the pictures alone that Tina is a wrestler, (Mostly because of the fringe on her arm mixed with the outfit.) Helena I would have guessed a noble or theatre actress, and Mila screams MMA fighter.

A picture of a penis can tell you a lot about someone. Hygiene, grooming, Masturbation habits, if they are right handed or left handed-all that goes along with those distinctions, if that person will pierce or tattoo their penis-which says a lot more about that person than a tribal tattoo on their arm. Again though, a lot does not mean all about that person's personality. Because again I never said such a thing.

I never played DOA either, but my guess is all of those women are fighters in a fighting tournament. Some dress to fight others dress in opera stage attire. Which I guess says, she takes her opera career into her hobby as a fighter. Workaholic.

What exactly separates someone who was created to be eye candy from someone who is much more than that?

This quote is from your post, posted as a quote, implying that I said the sentence, I did not. This is another example of you presenting your argument as a counter argument to something I said. If you feel that you would like to make a point, I would appreciate not being misrepresented while you do so.

 

[Bruce]

-snip-

So... you're saying my sister is just eye candy? She's sexy (And knows it, and wears outfits that show it off), but is also strongly celibate and pretty serious. And plays rugby.

No, I am saying she has reasons for the way she dresses that satisfy her, and it is part of who she is in a way that isn't invisible to her or the people around her.

With a sex-objectified type character in a game, the "sexiness" really just comes down to the character model, and is not expressed in the character themselves.

 

[Scow2]

-snip-

So... you're saying my sister is just eye candy? She's sexy (And knows it, and wears outfits that show it off), but is also strongly celibate and pretty serious. And plays rugby.

No, I am saying she has reasons for the way she dresses that satisfy her, and it is part of who she is in a way that isn't invisible to her or the people around her.

With a sex-objectified type character in a game, the "sexiness" really just comes down to the character model, and is not expressed in the character themselves.

Except the reasons she wears what she does is invisible to her and the people around her beyond 'because she does'. Asking why she wears hot shorts, tube tops, and heels gets the same reaction as asking why an Anyman wears a T-shirt, cargo shorts, and sneakers.

As for characters in fighting games being underdressed... I usually find them all to be overdressed. When I see MMA, Boxers, and Wrestlers, I tend to see a lot of skin and very little clothing worn.

 

[LaoJim]

Okay, this is something that's been bugging me for a while. Nothing to do with you in particular, just something I keep seeing and can't figure out.

Why does everyone keep calling her "Anita"? Do people not usually refer to public figures using their last names? You don't call President Obama "Barrack".

There's nothing particularly sinister going on. Firstly

I have a really hard time spelling Sarkeesian without it looking up.

Secondly people tend to use media celebrities first names when a) they want to demonstrate closeness to that person, b) when there is no chance of them being confused with anyone else. Thus on this site people commonly refer to Jim, Bob or Lisa without needing a surname because everyone knows who they are and they feel friends with them. Greg on the other hand often gets referred to as Tito because, despite being the editor, he's not such a public face. In gaming there is only one "Anita" who matters at the moment.

I'll admit in my post I was being somewhat factitious in my previous post. By calling her Anita I was gently implying that her next video would be like an old friend dropping by for a quiet chat with a group of likeminded individuals rather than the total shitstorm that is likely to result when she inevitably dares to criticises the gaming community's favourite pole-dancing bondage witch. If I was mocking the president of the USA I might very well say something like "Poor Barrack, it's all gone a bit wrong hasn't it". It's possibly worth noting that British people, including myself, tend not to afford the same amount of respect to our politicians that Armeican's do.

Thirdly, despite how the content of her videos is presented, Ms Sarkeesian not (or is barely) an academic as she doesn't hold a doctor's degree or university position, and from what I can see has only one publication (in a volume called "Fanpires: Audience Consumption of the Modern Vampire"). She's not then automatically deserving of the level of respect that is sometimes (though decreasingly these days) accorded to politicians, academics and other high status individuals. If I was according her appropriate academic respect I could have called her Ms Sarkeesian M.A. which could be seen as being equally mocking in its own way given the context.

Needless to say I hadn't thought of any of this when I typed my first post, "Anita" just seemed natural.

 

[Batou667]

Nariko from Heavenly Sword active/sexy. Same with Faith from mirrors edge but I bet she would fall mid-tier. Chloe and Elena from Uncharted would probably be attractive/ passive. Alpha Protocol's women would be more passives ranging in attractiveness based on players. Ditto with the inclusion of both Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

That would be a lot of work. Would be kinda cool to see where players voting ranked them as well as their roles.

Good suggestions. Yeah, finding out how people view characters could be an interesting experiment in itself.

Interesting idea, but very much incomplete. You missed all the sexy villainess characters, for example. Cia springs to mind.

Also, you massively miscategorized Zelda. She is, at very least, neutral in terms of active/passive, and that is only averaging it across all the games. In TP, for example, Zelda Leads the armies of Hyrule against Ganondorf. In OOT she spends 7 years independently fighting Ganondorf and is only captured in the very last moments of the game. In WW Zelda is a pirate captain, saves link more times than link saves her, is in generally a complete badass, and can even claim half credit for the final battle with Ganondorf. Zelda is hardly the passive character you have put her down as.

But in general, I think you did pretty well. It would be interesting to get a graph of male characters also.

Thanks! Yeah, I had a bit of trouble deciding where many of the female villains should go, because many of them are ambiguously attractive. (Mileena has a hot body, but a hideous face. Myrrah looks nice enough, but her overall appearance is more intimidating than alluring. Etc.) But yeah, I didn't consider any "siren" or "succubus"-type characters yet.

Full disclosure: I've never played a Zelda game, so I assumed Zelda was typically a damsel. Possibly for some long-running series we'd need to look at different incarnations of the same character, as I started doing withe Cortana (her appearance and role changes from game to game).

I toyed around with the idea of blogging about 2 years ago and I still have the page. I could set up polls for a new character each week and we could collect data slowly like that. I would need some help deciding on characters, finding some pictures to post and ironing out the details.

It's a good idea, but it could take a very long time - I was envisioning using perhaps up to 100 female characters (about 3 times the number I used so far) to get plenty of data points, so even in a rotation of 2 a week it'd take about a year to finish - and it'd be difficult to maintain peoples interest and participation over that timescale. I'm looking into free online survey sites...

Also on a side note, I would have included both Morrigans: Dragon Age Morrigan and Capcom Morrigan. One's a succubus and the other is a witch but sex appeal is a critical factor to them in some way.

Good suggestions, thanks!

 

[Netrigan]

It's kind of like the old definition of pornography... you know it when you see it.

And there's no universal agreement.

Really it comes down to whether women like it in large enough numbers. Its much more about appealing to what women find sexy and fun rather than just defining it by men. Like all fashion its more of a feeling than a set of objective rules. Sometimes its down to attitude.

 

[Savagezion]

I think if I just posted a picture of my penis, the viewer would have learned ...*snip

I don't think a picture of your penis could tell me more about you than the pictured The Kodu provided. I have never played DOA because I don't care about fighting games. However, I would have guessed just from the pictures alone that Tina is a wrestler, (Mostly because of the fringe on her arm mixed with the outfit.) Helena I would have guessed a noble or theatre actress, and Mila screams MMA fighter.

A picture of a penis can tell you a lot about someone. Hygiene, grooming, Masturbation habits, if they are right handed or left handed-all that goes along with those distinctions, if that person will pierce or tattoo their penis-which says a lot more about that person than a tribal tattoo on their arm. Again though, a lot does not mean all about that person's personality. Because again I never said such a thing.

I never played DOA either, but my guess is all of those women are fighters in a fighting tournament. Some dress to fight others dress in opera stage attire. Which I guess says, she takes her opera career into her hobby as a fighter. Workaholic.

You almost sound serious. A picture of a penis can't tell you shit about someone. By your logic every character in every game should run around naked so we can see their genitals so we can better understand them because apparently genitals tell us more about someone than the clothes they wear. Your clinging aweful hard to your hyperbolic statement, which makes me think you weren't being hyperbolic.

Most of that crap you said about dicks are just not true and are just common misconceptions. Basically urban legends. Right handed or left? Do you really believe that? Even the myth says "not everyone". Source please. Kodu was making a point about how often DOA characters are brought up in these discussions as fan service. because everyone likes to jump on the jiggle physics train as proof sexism exists.

Again:

When I ask what does any of this say about her character, I am speaking of her personality.

If you are calling for character studies of any and all characters of accused of sexism, good luck with that. Why don't you instead focus on the term sexism and come at it from the other direction. It seems nowdays people have made up their own definitions of sexism to try and obscure its meaning. However, if you make sexism a subjective term, then it is insane to berate and fire people over it. That would be like berating people and firing them for liking "bad" movies because "bad" is subjective. Sexism is not subjective.

This quote is from your post, posted as a quote, implying that I said the sentence, I did not. This is another example of you presenting your argument as a counter argument to something I said. If you feel that you would like to make a point, I would appreciate not being misrepresented while you do so.

Well, as you can tell from my posts towards you, I have to guess whatever your point is. I made the mistake of assuming you agreed with the OP by going against Kodu's point. So am I to take it you don't agree with him, yet you don't agree with Kodu? Seems your argument just shifts whenever you need it to. You have yet to make a post with a clear point. Other than "a picture of a person's penis shows more about that person than a picture of them", which I disagree with and have to say, its starting to sound like you have a weird fixation on dicks. I started out merely saying that The Kodu had a point with his posts. Essentially, backing up his point. I have seen those discussion he was referring to. Any criticism of DOA characters could be thrown at any fighting game.

That is what they are, in a matte of speaking. Pieces to be moved about in order to tell a story.

They are also people in a manner of speaking. It depends on what manner we are speaking in. You and I are also both "objects" in a manner of speaking.

There is no line because it's all made up bullshit. Feminists for years have been trying to demonize male sexuality by treating it as something dirty or immoral. Being attracted to a female because she has big breasts isn't bad, it's natural and completely normal. We like attractive women because they're humans we can interact with, if they were objects we wouldn't be. Some men are only interested in sex, some others mainly in relationships, neither group is worse than the other and both still care about how attractive a woman is.


So let's talk about videogames. SJWs and feminists are now using this same tactic to shame gamers and creators. Core gaming being mainly for males and made by males naturally has some games with attractive women. Apparently this is supposed to be controversial because God forbid men embracing their sexuality and making media that panders to their personal preferences, that's obviously immoral and shameful. So there comes the insulting accusations about viewing women as objects trying to guilt men to suppress their sexuality and be exactly like feminists want them to be: Neutered.

Just quoted for truth. Nature is sexist. It's why and how we all have repoduced for thousands of years. I find it funny because growing up and seeing Madonna lead a sort of female revolution in the 80s after the sexual revolution of the 70s where prior women were not allowed to express their sexuality but instead had to come off as 'pure' or be slut shamed. This is a reason I can't take feminism seriously today. It's all about labels and God help you if you are a man.

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

snip

Your are very right I have yet to make a clear argument. Where to draw the line, between sex object and sexual sexy character. The closest I came was when I riddled the question. If this topic was called What's the line between sex object and a sexual sexy personality, then the question would answer itself. This was suppose to imply, that personality of a sexual sexy character is where the metaphorical line gets drawn between sex object and sexual sexy character. A character with a sexual personality, is different than a character that's personality is for sex.

The fact that I had not made a argument, only a riddle eluding to it, is why it could not have changed dependent on my needs. That sounds complicated, because if I didn't declared Personality is the line between sex object and sexual sexy character, then I could easily go back and say cleavage is the line between sex object and sexual sexy character. And hey, that's cheating, I have to stay true to this metaphor of an abstract. Never change my mind, adapt, evolve. Oh, and so despicable the way I morph my argument that I did not make. If only I had made it.

The moment I have been dreading, my one true answer that I now commit to the stone. Sexual sexy personality is not only the distinction between sexual sexy character and sex object. Sexual sexy personality is also the distinction between sexual sexy character and Sexy character, as well as sexual sexy character and sexual character. Oh, and object and sex object. Personality is important thing I guess.

I have never played DOA and only the demo for Bayonetta, so I can not speak on the character having this or that personality, further more so that both are franchises now. I can not agree with the OP on his assessments of the DOA characters or Bayonetta, for that reason. When judging DOA and Bayonetta I am going with my expediences with the characters. I can take his assessment into consideration, but only as it applies to the topic. Meaning my experiences with the characters has not changed, only my consideration of other peoples experience has been modified as applies to the topic in which the other person's experience has touched on. By modified I do not mean accepted or incorporated, though this could very well happen as well.

That being said. I am not sure the OP, has made an argument that I could agree or disagree with. I was under the impression he was asking questions. Questions on personality of characters. He does go on to talking about appearance which is forgivable, but he states at the beginning. That the questions he poses have more to do with writing and design.

With this in mind, The Kudo's picture post comes out of no where attempting to prove a point not brought up in this topic. I have never heard this phantom argument he was attempting to prove, until he attempted to bring it up in his reply to my post. In fact I still have not heard it. Am I getting it correct, some people think that DOA characters don't look like real life representations of real life opera singer/fighters, yet Nathan Drake looks exactly like a real life adventurer? This argument is one that I do not disagree or agree with, I do not actually care about that argument at all. I go on to explain that character and character can be confusing.

Absolutely serious about the penis thing. But you are right there are special little snow flake penises that march to the beat own their own drum.

 

[BarkBarker]

being sexy isn't something you have to make a show of. You don't gotta be told this person is attractive anymore than you do in real life. They are, or they aren't. A sex object suffers from objectification, treating a person as a thing, without any regard for their dignity. As I see it there are a few tells to when they are being objectified, such as being treated: as a means to an end or a tool, as if they lack agency, of being owned by another, as if they are easily replaceable or if this is no concern for their feelings.