What's the point of the next generation?

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Zonkamatic

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Oct 31, 2013
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I would hope that, for the early part of the generation at least, that devs would stick with only a mild improvement on graphics and work on gameplay. I'd hate to regurgitate what Yahtzee said, but take Deus Ex. The game looked like arse. Because of that, most of the memory was spent on the depth of the mechanics. If Deus Ex: Human revolution was released this upcoming gen with exactly the same graphics, there would be a hell of a lot more room for adding depth to the gameplay.

From a purely graphical standpoint, new console gens do a hell of a lot of good for PC gamers, due to the unfortunate fact that, while gaming rigs almost always have better specs than consoles, games are designed with consoles in mind, so even graphical fidelity on the PC is limited by the specs of a current console.
 

Hero of Lime

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I do look forward to everything the new consoles offer other than better graphics at this point. The better AI, environments, and processing power should make games more interesting. On the other hand, many developers will probably put too much effort into the better graphics, and less on making the games as solid as possible.

Don't forget about the business side either, eventually with consoles, everyone who want to buy one, already has one. Thus they need to release a new and better product to stay in the market, and to keep the market alive.

All that being said, I have little interest in both new consoles at the moment. I will get PS4 sooner or later, and maybe an Xbox One down the line if Microsoft behaves itself, which is a big if at the moment.
 

Hero in a half shell

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Billy D Williams said:
There's been some good discussion, still right now it seems like 2/3 of the argument is graphics and as stated before is that worth $400?

HOWEVER, the argument of more RAM and being able to have destructible environments and such is a good, I'm still not sold on needing an entire new generation over that, at least not at this price but its definitely the best I've heard in the last few months.
Not just graphics, gameplay can massively improve with that as well, the biggest criticism of the game Hitman Absolution (apart from the Latex nuns) was that the levels were split up into too many sections. This had to be done because the hardware couldn't keep everything in memory. Same with all the large cities in Skyrim, which was easily fixed in the PC version by a mod that simply removes the loadscreen at the city gates and by doing so improves the gameplay experience by a huge margin.

The earlier Devil May Cry games often had 15-20 enemies on screen at once, and half the fun was experimenting with Dante juggling between all the enemies, pinballing off them with all his combos. The most recent game was only able to render about 6 at a time, again hurting the gameplay possibilities of the game.

This new gen will allow developers to create longer continuous levels, have more people on screen, each with more complex AIs than current gen can create and give an overall more interactive world, and while that doesn't guarantee better games, it sure removes a lot of the issues they may face.
 

Battenberg

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Aug 16, 2012
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In a word: POLYGONS!

Like a lot of other people have said the improved capablities of the consoles will allow for much greater enhancements in gaming than simply the graphics however I don't get the impression these will be utilised as much as the exciting new visuals; at least not by AAA game companies. The only feature that I think might be utilised is increased enemy/ character numbers at once and maybe AI and they'll probably only be improved for shooters because that seems to be all that matters now.

Smaller developers on the other hand may actually use the hardware improvements to make games that are better in all areas rather than than focusing on graphics etc. (I hope so anyway). Like the OP said if TLoU proved anything it's that the consoles we currently have are not holding back developers at all from making the games they want, publishers are.
 

Weaver

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Because consumer demand for graphics updates has lead to bigger player and weapon models so we can backface cull more of the screen. It's also lead to reduced enemy count in combat and a myriad of other design concessions (like shit AI) by developers simply to make the fucking game run on current hardware.

Cevat Yerli said they basically had to make Crysis 2 a linear shooter for it to work on consoles; which isn't necessarily the game they wanted to make.
 

skywolfblue

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Billy D Williams said:
and really not much new to bring to the table, why have a new generation?
It does bring a lot to the table in terms of processing power, and most importantly RAM.
More RAM means near-seamless environments, imagine skyrim without all the pop in.
More RAM means better physics and AI, and that leads to new methods and tools of gameplay that were previously too intensive.

As an example of "obvious gameplay benefit", look at how many MMO's are on the 360 and PS3... Not many, 512mb just isn't enough to handle a lot of different players onscreen. But there are quite a number of massively multiplayer games slated to hit the XBoxOne and PS4.
 

loc978

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They've pushed this generation's hardware to the breaking point (sectioning off cities in Fallout: New Vegas to avoid running out of RAM, Skyrim loading in small sections for the same reason, for LA Noire overheating and bricking systems, GTA V needing to stream simultaneously at full tilt from the hard drive and optical drive to keep up with texture pop-in, Crysis 3 being de-rezzed from 1080 to 480... et cetera)... the games you brought up in the OP only ran on that old hardware by being held together with the programming equivalent of chewing gum and string.

So I guess what the new generation brings to the table, for starters, is the horsepower to run current-gen games without a skin-of-your-teeth workaround.
 

Veylon

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I don't remember there being a point to the current gen. Last time around, a big deal was made that faster processors and more RAM would allow larger game worlds and more complex gameplay. Destructible environments! Advanced AI! Worlds that respond to your actions! I didn't hold my breath then and I won't now.
 

The White Hunter

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Oct 19, 2011
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More RAm will allow the next Elder Scrolls to not have to write major disasters into the timeline of every major town and city of it's region in the lore just to shrink it all down to fit into the pitiful memory pools of the current gen without needing a loading screen every 2 minutes.

And thus I will be happy.
 

The White Hunter

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Weaver said:
Because consumer demand for graphics updates has lead to bigger player and weapon models so we can backface cull more of the screen. It's also lead to reduced enemy count in combat and a myriad of other design concessions (like shit AI) by developers simply to make the fucking game run on current hardware.

Cevat Yerli said they basically had to make Crysis 2 a linear shooter for it to work on consoles; which isn't necessarily the game they wanted to make.
So that's why Crysis 3 is so linear and short.

Still fun though. And they did eventually get Crysis 1 working on the consoles, though I have no idea how they did that as I still have issues running it on my PC.
 

Objectable

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You see, Star Trek was getting popular again, especially after the success of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. So CBS, who owned the rights to the Star Trek TV Show (But not the movies) Decided to make another series, bringing back Gene Roddenbury, getting new talent, and even getting a relatively big name star:


LeVar Burton! The star of the famous miniseries Roots!
c
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Dexter111 said:
It has been 8 years, this was the longest "console cycle" ever.
This is true, and quite honestly I'm surprised that this generation has lasted as long as it has. It used to be you wouldn't see much more than half that much time go by before some new, more powerful console storm onto the market, even if some of them outright failed.

XMark said:
But what I'm really looking forward to is the increases in AI and physics that the new hardware will allow.
It would be nice, but how many devs are actually going to implement that, rather than just letting us count the hairs of the stubble on the face of the same-old white, brown-haired, angry-looking protagonist of the same-old brown-corridor military shooter? You can't put a sexy screenshot of improved AI in an advertisement.
 

RandV80

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Eh I was asking the same thing 7 years ago, but the industry thrives of this sort of thing and there will always be a younger generation of gamers to get excited about this sort of thing. Along with day 1 enthusiasts of course.
 

Jason Rayes

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I think even more than graphics processing power and the amount of ram, its the sheer computing power behind the CPU that powers it all that is going to make a difference in what we see from the next generation. What that raw power will be capable of behind the scenes, apart from better AI, more realistic simulation of physics and other CPU intensive processes, I have no idea as yet, we have yet to see what these machines are capable of.

We can't even really judge by the release games just what the next gen is going to be able to produce, you just need to look at the first round of PS3 and 360 games and compare them to the final games we are seeing of this generation to see just how far developers can push a platform given time and experience. Would you say there was no point going from PS2/Xbox to PS3/360, or argue that you can see no difference in current games beyond the graphics they are capable of? I for one would not argue that, but if you did, well, you are entitled to your opinion.

I'm never an early adopter, I prefer to give it a good year to let dev's get to grips with the new hardware, but speaking for myself, the point of the next generation is pushing things forward. My first console was an Atari 2600 and I look from then and all that has been up until now. Then I look to the future and I can't wait to see what it brings.
 

masticina

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Right lets start:
- First of all the first batch of games on a newer console tend to be weaker then games that come out 2 years later. Just look at any console launch and the first 1-2 years things are improving quickly. So you can't judge the next generation on what the games can offer right now.

- Second as others point out. 7 years is along time for a console cycle. And last 2 years the game developers really been complaining haven't they. If the PS4 and Xbox One came out on year earlier highly probably GTA V would be a next gen title. Now they had to pull all the tricks out of the board to make GTA V actually work on the older consoles. Hence why the issues with installation and requiring a disc to be there.

- Third, yes more ram allows at first for better graphics BUT give it 2 years and allot of other things also improve. The AI for instance can get a boost, the Physics Engine also needs memory, in shooters so far all the crumbling buildings and destruction is all pre planned. Yes even a certain 4th title is still limited in where you can cause damage. Will this generation fix it? Who knows..but with more resources at least we will get close to cause and effect.

- Fourth, filling up a world. Oh yes Skyrim is awesome but.. eh where are the beasties. Mmm rather empty like isn't it? Think of how much better skyrim would be with more memory more processing power. Oh yes.. we already can with PC-Mods!

So yeah we need that new console cycle to keep things moving ahead. Graphically the jump won't be huge. But it will be there.. I mean I could like a fallout with better textures and shaders. I am not a graphics whore but I tell you, it could look better.
 

MrBaskerville

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I don't see much reason for an upgrade, mostly because i rarely play any high end AAA games, i lean towards smaller japanese titles and they aren't really going to benefit from better hardware anyway. At the moment a new console generation just means that there are fewer games released for my ps3, which kinda sucks.

I mostly look for gameplay in games, and that's not really that dependent on hardware, so that's one of the reasons i'm fairly unexcited about the impending generation.
 

Joccaren

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Ok, so your examples of games proving what consoles can do are;
-Skyrim, the game that didn't exactly work on the PS3 as the PS3 had too little RAM to effectively run it after a set number of hours. The PS3s hardware left many unable to play the game, and Bethesda had to do serious optimization work to try and let them do so. In addition, Skyrim was rather meh. 1-3 enemies on screen at a time, terrible textures, enemy AI is idiotic, low level of detail with things such as clutter and vegetation, loading screens everywhere, and a near completely static world with no consequences for any of your actions. Yeah... Gee consoles can do so much. They can't even run a mediocre game.
-GTA V. The game that required a hard drive install and a disk in the tray to run properly. Screws over digital distribution, and those who don't have the hard drive space to install it. Haven't properly played the game myself as its not out for PC yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were similar to Skyrim with a better written main storyline and a couple of shader effects on top. Again, this simply showcases the limitations of consoles, requiring dual streaming to play new games made exclusively for consoles.
-Crysis 3. Umm... What? If graphics is your argument than you should look at PC vs Console comparisons, hell, Crysis 1 PC vs Crysis 3 console comparisons. The graphics on current gen consoles are actually quite poor, and the amount of depth that was in Crysis 1 that was sacrificed in 2 and 3 in order to get them to run better on consoles... Yeah, no showing me that consoles are useful. I guess you could argue some of its enemy AI was better than average, though that doesn't really say much, but otherwise... Why is this an example? The Crysis series has gone from the 'But can it run Crysis?' pride of PC gaming to something that I often here criticized for being 'consolified'. Simplified and linearised for the sake of consoles. That's hardly supportive of your 'We don't need a new generation' argument.

Simply put, the current generation is out of date. Better hardware will yield better results in a number of ways;
RAM:
Perhaps the most obvious area for improvement. Current consoles have a grand total of 512Mb of RAM. 256 of this is for graphics, 256 of this is for system. This means that all the textures in the game have to load on 256Mb of RAM. That is maybe 20 individual textures of a high quality - that means sky, each different terrain texture [Beach counts as different to pavement], each building's unique texture, useable door's unique texture, one texture for every unique looking character, if there is equipment a texture for that, water texture, cloud texture, rock textures for each different type of rock, tree textures for each different type of tree - the number of textures a game needs is phenomenal, and greatly surpasses the 20 limit imposed by using high quality textures on 256Mb RAM. And textures aren't the only thing that RAM is needed for either, meshes for models, shader information - anything to do with graphics can be delegated to the GPUs RAM. Have you ever found it annoying that there's only 5 types of tree in a whole world? 5 types of Rock? 5 types of building? Textures pop in after 10 seconds or so with 1995 era textures? Some games work around this by working with horrible low quality textures, of which they can use more without stressing the system, but even they are limited. If you ever find it annoying that half the objects in a game seem to be cloned from other objects, this is the reason it is such.
Beyond the graphics side of things, however, comes more gameplay. Gameplay these days: Linear corridors. Small levels. Up to 5, maybe 8 enemies on screen at a time. Non-destructible environment. Despawning and respawning items, vehicles and equipment. Whilst some of these are also gameplay decisions, they are all limitations of current console hardware. FPS games these days are linear corridor shoot fests as the 256Mb system memory isn't enough to load anything else. Sandbox worlds are filled with loading screens as, were they not, the game wouldn't be able to handle the transition from the overworld to a city or dungeon without crashing on a console. The limited ram means the system can't remember several entities if there are too many on screen. Item positions can't be permanently saved when dropped as keeping track of that in the memory takes it away from other things like characters and the world itself. Environments can't be destroyed as consoles would have trouble remembering which parts had and hadn't been destroyed, and in what way. All the "Shooters are all the same" stuff that is said these days is a symptom of console's being outdated. This has leaked across to PC games now, where titles that were originally great on the PC - like Battlefield - have been simplified down to an empty, open map, and a few hotspots of conflict for the sake of consoles. Proper terrain destruction was removed from BF3 at first because it was highly exploitable in the Beta, however once they had fixed that they decided not to re-implement it as it was taxing on console systems. Basically, level design and gameplay mechanics have to take a hit as consoles can't handle large maps with large numbers of enemies.
RAM also allows for multitasking so whilst you're playing Skyrim, your console is installing the latest GTA V update. With low RAM you can't do this without a large drop in performance in whatever game you're playing. Of course, such drops are ubiquitous in console gaming these days, and a lot of people have gotten used to it. Just because you expect games to lag now doesn't mean they have to.

CPU:
Another area of improvement. The CPU will allow for larger maps, more enemies on screen, better graphics, realistic physics simulations, destructible environments, better AI, greater persistence, increased performance, better multitasking - quite literally everything can be improved with a CPU upgrade. A CPU upgrade on its own, however, will result in bottlenecks elsewhere. Not upgrading the CPU results in a bottleneck at the CPU. The CPU has to process everything that happens in game - on screen or no. The more that happens at one time, the more stressed the CPU is. This is another reason consoles are normally stuck with 4-10 enemies on screen at once. The CPU can't think for any more of them at the same time, whilst its processing player inputs and turning them into actions, calculating persistence of items, receiving information to send to the GPU to draw, calculating the physics with which the player should drop after having jumped, how that car handles, the amount of damage that gun has - literally everything going on in game. Why are weapons in console games simple hitscan weapons that deal the same damage at any range a lot of the time? Because calculating a projectile's path, and calculating its reduced damage based on even a simple factor like distance, is taxing for console CPUs. Some games do both, some do one or another, a lot do neither.
Basically, if you want ANYTHING to improve in a console game, you need to upgrade the CPU.

GPU:
What it says on the box. Better graphics performance, less strain on CPU and RAM as the GPU takes near the entirety of graphics processing onto itself, rather than delegating some tasks to the rest of the system as it isn't strong enough to.

Optimisation:
Presently it costs a lot of money and time to optimise games for consoles. They use strange architectures - especially the PS3 - and have very low power hardware, and thus devs have to spend an inordinate amount of time optimising games for this. Making it take complete use of the PS3s CELL CPU with a different sub-CPU for each different type of calculation, ensuring the appropriate calculations are sent to the appropriate one of six cells for processing. Reducing texture size so the console's aren't strained. Increasing the size of things like guns on screen so that the console won't have to draw what's behind them, meaning a gun that takes up 1/3rd of your screen is favourable as its easier for the CPU to draw. And even with this, it doesn't always work out. Case in point; Skyrim on the PS3.
All next gen consoles, however, will utilise PC X86 architecture. This makes porting from PC to console and vice versa a lot easier. It also means devs don't have to waste time programming for several different architectures for a multi-platform release. X86 is also a well known architecture that has been around for a LONG time. It been around since 1978 from memory. It should be very familiar in most devs heads as to how it works, seeing as a lot of courses for programming likely focused around it and the PC.
Additionally, the new consoles have more power than Devs know what to do with. This means they don't have to find ways to decrease the amount of resources the game uses by exorbitant amounts, and can spend the time they'd normally spend on that finding and fixing bugs and glitches, or expanding the game.
The new architecture, whilst meaningless for us, will make dev's lives a lot easier, likely result in decreased development time and budget requirements, and easier multiplatform and ports.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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SkarKrow said:
So that's why Crysis 3 is so linear and short.

Still fun though. And they did eventually get Crysis 1 working on the consoles, though I have no idea how they did that as I still have issues running it on my PC.
Check comparisson videos between the two. They used ultra low res textures, removed about 80% of clutter in environments, and all round made it look slightly better than your typical console game, leaving only the gameplay as Crysis.
These, for example, are the exact same scene in each game. You wouldn't believe it on first look, but taking a closer examination reveals it to be true;

[Granted in the Xbox 360 version he has walked an extra few steps down the path, but that's not what one should be noticing =P]
 

EternallyBored

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Jun 17, 2013
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You say it's not worth $400 hundred dollars and that they should hold off a year or two to drop the price? Err hate to break it to you but that's going to happen anyway, why should the entire console delay it's launch just to lower its price right out of the gate. In 2 years the price will have already gone down, the early adopters will have helped identify and iron out the major bugs and issues, and the game makers will already have experience making and releasing games on the system.

Here's a plan that works exactly like you suggested, how about instead of delaying the entire generation just to fit your expectations of what's "too expensive" or "not worth it", you just wait two years to buy the console at a reduced price. By that time any patches and major hardware issues should be fixed, the online components will have adapted for the load, and there will even be a backlog of games to work through so you won't even have to worry about not having any games to play on your new system. See it's truly the best of both worlds.

On a serious note, yeah $400 and $500 new consoles makes this one of the cheaper generation launch prices. Couple that with the 8 year turn around and this is pretty much the longest we've ever had to wait for a new generation. The current consoles were doing all kinds of workarounds already in order to hide the limitations of the system, and this was effecting PC gaming too, since people don't really make games like Crysis very often, that can push even today's computers, basically any game released on cosole and PC is purposely hobbled because it was designed for limited console hardware.

I'm really just not seeing the downside here, the 360 and PS3 have pretty much been pushed to their limits, this is actually a pretty good time for a new generation, hell some people would say it's overdue.