Thank you for that link, can't believe I didn't hear about that before, also can't believe Nintendo didn't sue their asses off.Grenge Di Origin said:
Ditto on Mother and WarioWare! Open the cupboard Nintendo! Let us in there!
What's with the extreme Nintendo Hate?
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Ditto on Mother and WarioWare! Open the cupboard Nintendo! Let us in there!
So, your response to seeing people complain about the way Nintendo is doing business is that they're all just biased?Sould1n said:
I would posit that this is a gaming site and that this means that the vistors here are likely to care enough about gaming to be considered hardcore gamers. As such, the Nintendo model of doing business has drifted somewhat away from our demographic and found themselves in the casual gaming stratosphere (before you disagree, understand that Nintendo has acknowledged that this is the way things have gone and is a priority to change this time around). There's nothing wrong with that, casual gaming absolutely has it's place in the world and Nintendo still delivers the big titles. My only complaint here has been that those big titles are the same names that have been around since before many of the posters here were born or while many were still in diapers. I don't mind seeing them, I'd like to see more of some titles done in a way that pays appropriate homage to their legacy. But what I want from Nintendo is some fresh ideas. The big new titles that I've been excited about over the past decade has been Sony or Microsoft dominated. Nintendo gave me No More Heroes and Red Steel, thus partially meeting my innermost desires to swing a sword in battle. I love their AAA new stuff. It's just extremely lacking and I don't think it's hateful to point that out.
Pointing out the flaws of an organization is necessary. Even your own beloved corporations. May I ask what other systems you own? My household is a gaming household. We own every console of this generation as well as my own power pc that I built myself. As such, I'm willing to see the weakness in all of those systems and I have no interest in any one being better than the other. I do personally put the PS3 at the top of my list this past generation, but moreso because I found it to be my favorite media system which isn't exactly fair in a gaming console comparison. I also enjoyed several of their exclusive titles like inFamous, Uncharted, MGS4, Little Big Planet, etc. I found the Xbox Kinect to be a fantastic party system (you haven't lived until you've played Fruit Ninja on a large plasma by slicing it with your shadow hand) but the Wii also had it's place with Mario Party (LOVE it) and Wii Sports. For non-exclusive single player games I also generally enjoy my pc. All of them have their function but I'm beginning to grow tired of playing as a plumber. Fond memories and all, but I'd like some other platformers and new Nintendo-esque characters and I don't think that's unfair to ask for.
I should probably leave this for a better time to comment, preferably one at not such a late hour when I've got work the next morning but I feel like responding to your reply quickly. Before I begin though I would just like to say thank you for quoting me, it's nice to be noticed.Lightknight said:
Now then, I had never once said that the reason people complain about the way Nintendo is doing business is that they're all just biased. My answer was to why I believe there is what people term a case of extreme Nintendo hatred on this site, not why there is legit criticism of the company. Nintendo are not perfect, and all companies make decisions that will be approved by some but disapproved by others. The demographic here tends to be formed of quite a few who dislike the decisions Nintendo has made, sometimes this is absurd hating of Nintendo's decisions because they are made by Nintendo and others are actual dislike of the decisions because they consider it a bad idea.
I never really understood the terminology of a hardcore gamer and a casual gamer. What defines them, the amount of time they put into a game, what games they play, their level of skill with a game? Also, who defines the amount of time needed to be spent to be considered a hardcore gamer, or what games count as hardcore? It's always been an odd, rather undefined terminology to me.
Anyway, as I said earlier, Nintendo is not perfect, and none of the big three are. There are criticisms to be laid against all of them though in regards to Nintendo I have few personal gripes myself. That's not to say I have none but I will state that I do like Nintendo more so than Sony and Microsoft. It's a matter of preference. I enjoy the fact that Nintendo continue to keep franchises such as Mario, Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Pokémon, and Kirby (my favourite) alive, and even keep them fresh. Be it splitting Kirby into ten of himself, changing the graphic style of Legend of Zelda, or having Mario going from platformer to sports game to mini-games, I love how they remain a part of my gaming life as they always have.
I will admit though that perhaps it is getting to the point where we are getting too much of the bigger Nintendo franchises, or rather we are not getting enough of the other Nintendo franchises. It may surprise you but Nintendo have been creating new IP's such as Pushmo/Crashmo and Dillon's Rolling Western... they've just been on the Eshop only... and not being promoted enough as new IPs. It's strange as well, a bit more work and they could have been proper physical releases, not just downloads, and I do think that is something Nintendo should address. When they create new IP's they should promote them better.
Also, while the likes of Mario and such are being kept in the public eye there are many Nintendo IP's that are not being used much, or are being left forgotten. It's been a long while since the last F-Zero game, Balloon Fight is a great series that doesn't pop up much, why is Punch-Out one of the only Retro First Party Nintendo Titles to get a revival, Ice Climbers keeping appearing in Super Smash Bros but they haven't got a new game yet. Rather than create new IP's I would love to see Nintendo make fresh instalments for a lot of their older IP's. Another thing that would be cool to see would be for Nintendo franchises other than Mario to appear in other genres and styles. We've have a few cases (Metroid Pinball for instance) but when it comes time for a sport or racing or party or RPG game it is often the Mario cast used... why not use the Kirby or Panel de Pon (I'd like to see Lip surface overseas) for a party game, have a horseback racing game using the Legend of Zelda characters, make a 2-D or 3-D beat em' up using F-Zero or Punch-Out characters. Nintendo already have plenty of amazing and wonderful franchises, series, and characters, but they don't utilise enough of them. I enjoy the games they release, and I enjoy seeing Mario appear as often as he does, but I think for a while some of the bigger series should stick to their main series games and allow some of the older titles to either resurface or be utilised for planned games that don't need Mario to appear in it.
More points of yours to reply to I have, such as your question about what other systems I own? Well luckily for me I live in a house with three brothers so when it comes to game systems we tend to have quite a few. Counting them all, including handhelds we have the Amiga, SNES, Sega Mega Drive, N64, Playstation, Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube, Wii, Xbox 360, PS3, WiiU, Gameboy, Gameboy Colour, Gameboy Advance, DS, PSP, and 3DS. It is safe to say, even though I'm not the one to purchase certain games, I have played across a fair range of games and consoles. In regards to the generation of Wii, PS3, and Xbox 360, my favourite game console is the one I own, the Wii. I have a decent sized library of first party games for it, games of which I can continue to play on my WiiU as I await releases for said consoles (and I know of a few Wii games I do not own but want to try if need be), and while I will admit that Nintendo's poor third party support is a problem and one of which I hope they can improve upon, a great many of the third party games I desired and enjoyed were on or available on the Wii. These titles include Muramasa the Demon Blade, A Boy and his Blob, Red Steel 1 and 2, No More Heroes, Dragonball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 2 and 3, Sonic Colours, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing, and a few others to which I could all play on my Wii.
I will also profess though that I'm grateful for having the PS3 and 360 in my household so that I can enjoy some of the games that are not available on the Wii. I absolutely love Eternal Sonata and Asura's Wrath, Dead or Alive 4 got me into the DoA series and thus I also obtained Dead or Alive 5, the Ratchet and Clank series is always good fun, BlazBlue is a game series I love to play, Playstation All-Stars is terrific, and anime based delights such as One Piece: Pirate Warriors and Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 3 are pleasing to own. If one only owns one console then inevitably they are going to miss out on some games, exclusives are for the most part what make you choose one system over another, but luckily I do not have to worry about that problem. If I had to decide on only one console, it will always be Nintendo because Kirby will always be loved and Super Smash Bros continues to keep me up long through the night.
So to conclude, I was not saying that bias is the only reason that people criticise Nintendo but in my personal opinion I believe it is a certain bias on this site that stimulates the extreme hatred for Nintendo that springs up here. Legit criticism is always interesting to see, notably in how others want to see a company progress. I personally like the direction Nintendo has been going but there are always things I'm going want to see them do or do differently and I imagine that's the same for any fan of any company.
Nintendo. Where to begin....
Being a die hard Sonic fan, I am obliged to despise the fat red plumber and anything he appears in but, as the blue wonder has tripped at the first hurdle, I find myself warming to the exploits of this hairy hero.
I always saw Nintendo as the yapping puppy in the 'Console Wars', running around like a child on a sugar high, as the PS3 and Xbox 360 locked horns in the boxing ring. Occasionally, the Wii would throw us a curve ball and bring out something fun and quirky, but mostly, it was either a kid friendly cavalcade of mediocrity or an exercise simulator, which is the cardinal sin in video games.
Nintendo panders to the casual crowd and, being the 'leet, uber-competitive, 15th prestige, trigger-happy dolt' I am, I don't much care for Nintendo, on a purely moral standpoint.
I'll give them Wario Ware: Smooth Moves, though. That shit was insane.
Being a die hard Sonic fan, I am obliged to despise the fat red plumber and anything he appears in but, as the blue wonder has tripped at the first hurdle, I find myself warming to the exploits of this hairy hero.
I always saw Nintendo as the yapping puppy in the 'Console Wars', running around like a child on a sugar high, as the PS3 and Xbox 360 locked horns in the boxing ring. Occasionally, the Wii would throw us a curve ball and bring out something fun and quirky, but mostly, it was either a kid friendly cavalcade of mediocrity or an exercise simulator, which is the cardinal sin in video games.
Nintendo panders to the casual crowd and, being the 'leet, uber-competitive, 15th prestige, trigger-happy dolt' I am, I don't much care for Nintendo, on a purely moral standpoint.
I'll give them Wario Ware: Smooth Moves, though. That shit was insane.
Haha. You formed your thoughts coherently, as such that warranted reading. Thank you for responding. Never know when a thread is about to die.Sould1n said:
I can agree with that. But the term "extreme" is a relative issue. I am unhappy with Nintendo and will likely stop buying their products unless they step up the innovation where new IPs are concerned. While you may not feel that this qualifies as hate (and I would agree), several people would categorize any disdain with their business practices as just being a hater.
Generally speaking, it's about story involvement (plot) and game mechanic. Wii Sports really isn't about a plot of any kind. It's something you can just hop into and then hop out of without any context of backstory. For example, FPS games involve a lot more coordination than say, angry birds. Fruit Ninja? Extremely casual but hella fun. So enjoyment is not a factor and there's nothing wrong with casual games. I just get more enjoyment out of actual plot based games than the "junk food" games that I consider casual. To that effect, my library is filled with hardcore games moreso than casual games. I may consider casual games to be more like one-off TV episodes with hardcore games to be high production movies. They're both entertainment and they both have a valuable place in the world but are not the same thing. I'd also say that some titles blur the line between casual and hardcore gaming, in case you were wondering that.
Now, with that in mind, which consoles do you think lend themselves more to hardcore gaming? If you don't think Nintendo then your ignoring what they themselves know and have admitted. The disparity in processing power really harmed the Wii's ability to be competitive in the hardcore market. It isn't that Nintendo didn't want Skyrim on their console, it's that Skyrim was already scraping the bottom of the barrel with the ps3 and 360 and certainly couldn't have scaled so far down as the Wii's processing capabilities. You can know that this is their line of thinking because the moment the WiiU came out, a lot of those AAA hardcore games came with it. They knew they were missing out on those sales and wanted in.
You see, I read that and say, yeah, those are good brands that have succeeded in the test of time and sales. But I see them and realize that those five titles/IPs are what one really good developer could produce over a few decades and not what a major platform like Nintendo should have. They should literally have dozens of third party developers pumping these titles out alongside what they do themselves. Those titles you mentioned, not one of them are newer than the 90's. Truth be told, Nintendo lost exclusivity (or in some cases, any access at all) to a lot of their biggest titles that we have to be thankful to them for introducing or making successful. But Sony and Microsoft (perhaps out of necessity) have pumped out a tremendous number of really enticing IPs in the few years they've been around.
Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania, Prince of Persia (failed on the pc in NA, succeeded when Nintendo gained access). These titles blew up once they left Nintendo but owe their start to Nintendo. But keep in mind, we're still talking the 80's and 90's here.
Here's an article on the subject of why Nintendo lost money in 2011 (hint they didn't produce good titles that year):
http://kotaku.com/5908312/theory-no-5-about-why-nintendo-lost-money-last-year
Again, I don't think it's that there's too much of the big titles. They can wear the heck out of them if they want. The problem is that there aren't other titles. Miyamoto explained this once, saying that if there's an already existing character that would fit in a new game then it makes sense to them to use the already known character. This is a failure to understanding longterm success. The first game probably won't sell as well but if it's good enough to be a new IP then you'll start having another money maker going forward and can release it alongside new iterations of the old titles. Paper Mario? Why not create a new character for it that could then have their own spin offs too? They get good ideas and then just roll them up into the sea that is the already existing IPs and if you're tired of playing as a Italian stereotype plumber than you're shit out of luck.
The answer is because they are afraid of the risk. They know that their legacy is their strongest selling point and they're afraid to stop leaning on that so heavily. I understand that line of thinking and Mario is a darn safe bet, but this will wear down the appeal. Slowly, but surely.
As for Pushmo/Crahsmo and Dillon's Rolling Western, those are great. But to be honest I'm talking about the console here. The system that the biggest titles will always be released on. I'm a grown man who enjoys videogames. When I'm gaming at home, I play on my consoles or my pc. When I'm at work, I work or use the internet as I'm doing now. If I'm driving, I'm controlling the car and can't play the DS. If my wife is driving, I'm talking with her. When I travel, I take my laptop or my PSP or my Vita because I can also enjoy movies and other media on those devices as well as good games that generally cater more efficiently to adults. I would anticipate that Nintendo has many more years in the handheld market as long as they keep innovating with those titles in the way that they should be doing with with the console. I am wary of the iOS market for them though. There's a lot of great content for tablets and smart phones and I'm not 100% sure that Nintendo wouldn't be better off selling their wares there. At least their old titles.
Agreed, they need to farm their other existing IPs a little more as well. Other companies have been immensly better at doing this like I mentioned above. Hell, Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy 7 sold me on the original playstation more than anything else at the time and those started with Nintendo.
Yes, I've mentioned Red Steel and No More Heroes as wonderful examples of hardcore gaming that Nintendo should be producing more of. They then immediately lost exclusivity of no more heroes to both the PS3 and the 360.
A boy and his blob is great and IS an example of Nintendo revisiting their underused backlog (A boy and his blob came out in 1989 in North America).
Many of those other titles are also available on the other consoles. Muramasa is actually available on the PS Vita of all things with additional scenes so I'm not sure where its future lies. Dragon Ball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 2 and 3 were available on both the ps2 and Wii and most subsequent releases have now gone firmly away from Nintendo to the ps3 and 360 only (Except for Revenge of King Piccolo). The only one that scored really high, Budokai 3 was only on the ps2. Most Sega games are available on every system imagineable.
It sounds like you have some drastically different tastes in games than I do. Imagine you're not such a big fan of fighting games or cartoony games and consider what Nintendo offers then.
Let me ask you this, if Nintendo went full time into Software development and dropped their foray into home consoles. What do you feel like you'd lose if you could play their big titles on the other consoles?
I apologize for reducing your argument so far then. I find that I've grown out of or have grown tired of a lot of Nintendo's titles. The IPs I've really enjoyed with much more complex stories are also far and few in between (Zelda). I've found Nintendo to be extremely kid friendly but pretty ill-suited to cater to my wants. They've taken a significant step with their WiiU launch titles but we're likely going to be right in the same place when the next consoles come out where the huge AAA games aren't playable on the WiiU (For example, it's only got 2GB of Ram, 1GB of which is dedicated just to the OS. It's perhaps twice as powerful as the ps3 or 360 but not multiple times like the ps4 has shaped up to be). I am disappointed with them. Even if I'm willing to shoulder it off on feeling like they're catering to kids and not my demographic, I'm still finding myself growing more to like games like Little Big Planet, Ni No Kuni (I know it's available in Japan for the DS but there are no plans to localize the DS version), Viva Pinata. Those games feel like they should have been Nintendo, but they're not. I mean, heck, Ni No Kuni is Pokemon meets studio Ghibli. Team Ico's work also strikes me as Nintendo for some reason, never figured out why I associate the two but I love them.
I'm honestly just beginning to think of Nintendo as one software developing company. A large one, but just one. As such, it's hard to justify buying an entire console for one software company.