What's with the MMO hate, you hateful haters?

[BloatedGuppy]

Why would I do that, no one else is. You're assuming I'm on some anti-WoW campaign, or, some "people are addicted to video games" campaign. The only reason I'm even responding in this thread is because you and the OP are being dicks to a guy who's made a positive change in his life.

And both you and the OP are in the illusion-filled fantasy world where video games play no factor in a person's life. There's a difference between being the sole cause of something, and being a contributing factor. I'm sorry, but video games, or ANY ACTIVITY you do has an influence on who you are. To say that video games are blameless in all respects, is a lie quite frankly.

Whoa, why am I getting dragged back into your little flame-fest? I'm sorry I argued for personal responsibility. I guess that makes me a "dick". But since we're on the topic...

Stereotypes exist for a reason. Because there is some element of truth to them.

Yep, they serve a purpose for lazy, prejudiced people. It allows them to make sweeping generalizations.

Just stop already. Between the name calling, the ridiculous over-reactions, and your bizarre advocacy for stereotypes, the thread is now thoroughly derailed. You have your opinion, Draech has his opinion, clearly no one is the slightest bit willing to change their opinions.

Drop it.

 

[VladG]

The combination of "skinner box" psychological manipulation and a competitive "I want to be better than them" atmosphere (max DPS in groups, pwning in PVP, etc) makes MMOs in particular exceedingly addictive for many people.

A game like CoD or BF employs some RPG elements like leveling up, but you can be lvl 5 and still pwn anything. The only incentive to keep playing besides enjoyment are to unlock new things, which is a little bit addicting, but it's not like a skinner box where every single thing you kill *might* give you an uber item. That makes it almost like gambling.

So, basically, I'm totally in agreement with @Abhorrent. People that have gone down the rabbit hole know how evil it can be, and therefore hate the genre.

Personally I don't exactly hate it, but I'm not going to be playing any MMOs.

I don't feel that way about MMOs... I've sunk many, many hours in WoW (semi-hardcore raiding guild for 1 year, raiding some 15 hours a week plus a couple more years in more relaxed guilds) I've played around with other MMOs, EVE, Tabula Rasa and I've given them all up. Indeed I can no longer afford to sink so much time into them. But I don't hate them for it.

I think it's more of a fear that they are indeed as addictive as crack that makes people stay away from them. A sort of mass hysteria (exaggeration for comedic purpose) They think that if they will pick up an MMO they will end up homeless, all because they couldn't pry themselves away from the game. They aren't that bad in reality. Just because some people DO get themselves addicted, that's a reflection on the person, not the game.

Oh, I'm not challenging the Skinner Box techniques they employ, I'm just saying they aren't THAT effective unless you already have a very addictive personality.

It might also have to do with the quality of internet connections. From what I hear they aren't that great in the U.S. and playing with high latency is never fun. So people stay away from online games.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

No you're a dick because instead of taking the balanced, fair approach and saying to Jessta that while games weren't the sole cause of him being a rutt, they may have been a contributing factor. Instead, what you said was that roughly 'games are blameless, it was all your fault, look at me, I play video games and I'm still awesome'. That's being a dick.

Nice paraphrasing.

Yep, I said his behavior was his responsibility. Jessta himself says:

On the final part of the discussion, Video games ARE NOT addictive nor was I trying to say video games are addictive.

...so, yeah. He's acknowledging that it's his personal responsibility. Nowhere did I say he was a bad person. Nowhere did I say I was awesome. Didn't say any of those things. Said it was his personal responsibility. I'm sorry if you find the concept of personal responsibility terrifying, but there it is.

You complain about name calling when just a moment before you passively-suggest that I'm "lazy and prejudiced"? Hahaha. You're a riot.

Nice paraphrasing. Did I say you were lazy and prejudiced? No, I said stereotypes are lazy and prejudiced. And they are. And you can run in circles all day trying to defend them because you're using them to prop up your argument, but they are. If you're comfortable with that, that's on you.

The only problem is that you ASSUME that I believe everyone fits that mold, when in fact I know a guy who plays WoW and is shaped like a beanpole. So the problem is not that I recognize stereotypes as having an element of truth, the problem is you assume I believe the stereotype to its fullest extent. So once you get past the problem of assuming things I do and do not believe, let me know.

From paraphrasing to mind reading. I'm not assuming anything about you. I'm responding to things you say. Your ardent refusal to accept that personal responsibility is a real thing. Your bizarre enthusiasm for stereotyping. Your repeated abuse of ad hominem attacks when you get frustrated.

You notice Jessta and I aren't exchanging posts any more? That's because we have nothing to argue about. Jessta took my comment about personal responsibility as a personal attack, that's unfortunate, but as he's not crawling up my ass about it any more I expect he's gotten over it. He clarified his position, I've got no issue with anything he has to say. He and Draech are having their own slap and tickle fight completely independently of me. This is all you now, fighting a battle against the twin bogeymen of "Personal responsibility is good" and "Stereotypes are bad". Good on you. I guess everyone needs their causes.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Hell this whole thread is basically just a fanboy (ie you) trolling people who don't like his favourite past time.

Ad hominem attacks.

You either have a bad memory, or you're a liar.

Ad hominem attacks.

Ahhh, I'm so sorry that your thread didn't turn out the way you wanted it to. Do you want a tissue?

I'm fine thanks.

 

[BoogityBoogityMan]

these comments are to no one in particular:

1) you are not as smart as you think you are

2) with regard to medical/biological issues, people have a natural tendency to blame the sufferer for their condition, eg obesity. It is only with a clear scientific understanding of the biological systems involved does that propensity disappear. Did you know people used to blame cancer suffers for their cancer? Google cancer "personality & blame" or "illness as metaphor".

3)addiction is a complicated issue that defies simple generalizations from uneducated laypeople, especially those who cannot engage in critical self reflection.

I've always liked the word idiot, if you use it in a Freudian way, as in "stop being an ID-iot".

 

[Soxafloppin]

I just don't think that being an MMO is an excuse to have gameplay that is utter shit.

But thats just my 2 cents.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I just don't think that being an MMO is an excuse to have gameplay that is utter shit.

But thats just my 2 cents.

Ah, but it may not have gameplay that's utter shit.
The most popular modern MMOs have very GOOD gameplay, but the problem lies in the extreme degree of repetition cheapening the effect.

When you're taking actions that aren't challenging or interesting, and every encounter plays the same, it's objectively BORING. It's a rational, and well-known part of human nature for people to become bored with doing the same shit over and over.

Which is why the Skinner-Box trap is so dangerous, because it effectively convinces gamers to accept the boredom and assume that it will all be worthwhile, when they could literally be doing ANYTHING BETTER. The majority of their time will be spent doing quests to get ready for raids or "bigger quests", yet the whole time the quest is always the same.

To be fair, on rare occasion a player may encounter a quest that isn't copy-pasta and requires some actual interaction or thought. But compared to the monolith of grind, these bright spots of actual gameplay are very rare.

As the last bit of insult to injury, MMOs by their nature PROVIDE NO CLOSURE.
They don't want to because they're a service; their very nature assumes a greater Fixed Cost for their existence and that means charging players something: either a subscription "License to Grind" or (in the case of Free-To-Play MMOs) for convenience "License to break free of the grind for a short while".
If they provided closure, the player would lose interest, despite (potentially) being satisfied with the game as a whole, and they can't have that!

So in either case, it all comes back to grind. Grind ruins good gameplay.

 

[BoogityBoogityMan]

/snip/ the hedonistic part of our nature.

It boils down to the McDonalds argument.

Do you think it is McDonalds fault that it was used as your happy place and you got fat?

My OPINION is that it is your own fault.

Let's take a look at obesity since you brought up McDonalds.

Obesity research has been a failure with regard to coming up with treatments. It has approx a 95% failure rate, and a failure rate that high in any treatment regime means that the treatment does not work.

However, if you read the literature, in the last 4 or 5 years, the beginnings of real progress have started to appear. And you know what, it has nothing to with blame or willpower or moral weakness. Insulin resistance syndrome (genetic + environmental factors) leads a %tage of the population into obesity, diabetes, etc. It is no coincidence that once potatoes, sugar, rice, soft drinks, etc enter into a populations food supply, problems ensue.

For example, their is ample evidence that the Inuit whose diet consisted 90%+ of fatty caribou meat and no vegetables (they didn't think plants were proper foodd for humans), had virtually no obscenity, diabetes, or heart disease. With the introduction of potatoes, rice, four, sugar, etc, that all changed.

Now researchers are coming to realize that low fat high carb diets can cause insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome in susceptible people. An actual medical condition that leads inevitably to obesity and makes weight loss virtually impossible for 95%, even on near starvation levels of calories.

Now if McDonlads and other companies knew that adding high fructose corn syrup etc to their products would cause people to exhibit addictive behavior wtr to their products, in full knowledge that their products are harmful, how is that any different than what the tobacco companies did? And who is to blame again?

[just a side note, I remember reading the writing of an early 20th century anthropologist who studied the some South Dakota natives who had been transitioned from a traditional hunter gatherer diet to bread sugar coffee and salted meat being provided by the govt because there was nothing left to hunt. This diet cause an explosion of obesity in the population. During one extended period of famine (govt officials used to steal some of the food, or replace it with rotten food), there were these pictures of really fat mothers holding malnourished babies. The common belief was that these women were taking their babies food, otherwise why how else could they be fat when their was a huge food shortage? Talk about being judged! Anyway, there is plenty of evidence to show that a person can be fat while starving.]

 

[boag]

And again you remove all responsibility from yourself.

McDonalds make you fat, but blaming McDonalds on one being overweight then everyone is a victim. There is personal responsibility. You want to say "WoW ruined your life" when in fact it enabled you to ruin your life, just like EVERYTHING else in the world. Overindulgence is a personal problem.

My kid brother got in a slump because he got into the whole "Fast and the Furious" lifestyle thing. Wasted tons of money on cars and accessories. Would you blame the cars? He overindulged and lived beyond his resources and it nearly cost him his apartment, but is it the fault of the cars or him?

According to your logic its the cars

Same scenario, different medium.

No because as I said before, IT NEVER RUINED MY LIFE, I saw how it was affecting my life and removed it, the scenario here would be more like someone asking, why don't you eat fast food? and someone replying with, because it will make me fat and even then this is if Mcdonalds required that you pay for 15 dollars worth of food every time you went to eat there. Ya, I understand video games can cause these problems but I hate MMOs because these aren't just problems they can cause, these are problems they WILL cause. Either that or sap away my bank account while I'm not looking.
And ya I would blame the cars IF the cars required him to buy a new one each and every month or lose all of his previous cars and they required him to use 50 gallons for the mile and didn't come with lockable doors so he had to buy those as accessories. In that case damn straight I would blame that kind of deal, that's a bullshit deal I think that's a perfectly reasonable kind of deal to hate. You might note I didn't say I hate VIDEO GAMES for these reasons, these are things that are EXCLUSIVE to MMOs, and even then only to the big main stream MMOs because at the end of the day mainstream MMOs will not deliver what you payed for unless you pay more.
And its people like you who are a lot more to blame that people come in with that shitty logic where they super demonize gaming and blame it for things like shoot outs because you are, right now, representing the gaming industry as a regular person who plays games, and you are down right refusing to see they have problems. This is the reason people see it as an addiction and not a compulsion to, if you refuse to admit that they can cause any problems at all then they will think of their own problems they might present rather than try to deal with the problems that are right there in front of you. Pot heads and drug addicts do this same thing where they get all defensive and refuse to admit there's problems caused by their addictions and that's why gaming is commonly falsely associated with addiction.
Also, stop making shitty analogies that only share one or two common factors of the situation and ignore the rest, it would be like if I said, All video games are the same as Crack cocaine because they cost lots of money and have frequently returning customers. They simply ARE NOT the same thing.

I agree with you example of the cars, that is a bullshit deal.

Now tell me, what kind of idiot without any self control would take that deal?

Cause if you know him, tell him i got a bridge to rent to him for 15 dollars a month.

 

[boag]

/snip/ the hedonistic part of our nature.

It boils down to the McDonalds argument.

Do you think it is McDonalds fault that it was used as your happy place and you got fat?

My OPINION is that it is your own fault.

Let's take a look at obesity since you brought up McDonalds.

Obesity research has been a failure with regard to coming up with treatments. It has approx a 95% failure rate, and a failure rate that high in any treatment regime means that the treatment does not work.

However, if you read the literature, in the last 4 or 5 years, the beginnings of real progress have started to appear. And you know what, it has nothing to with blame or willpower or moral weakness. Insulin resistance syndrome (genetic + environmental factors) leads a %tage of the population into obesity, diabetes, etc. It is no coincidence that once potatoes, sugar, rice, soft drinks, etc enter into a populations food supply, problems ensue.

For example, their is ample evidence that the Inuit whose diet consisted 90%+ of fatty caribou meat and no vegetables (they didn't think plants were proper foodd for humans), had virtually no obscenity, diabetes, or heart disease. With the introduction of potatoes, rice, four, sugar, etc, that all changed.

Now researchers are coming to realize that low fat high carb diets can cause insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome in susceptible people. An actual medical condition that leads inevitably to obesity and makes weight loss virtually impossible for 95%, even on near starvation levels of calories.

Now if McDonlads and other companies knew that adding high fructose corn syrup etc to their products would cause people to exhibit addictive behavior wtr to their products, in full knowledge that their products are harmful, how is that any different than what the tobacco companies did? And who is to blame again?

[just a side note, I remember reading the writing of an early 20th century anthropologist who studied the some South Dakota natives who had been transitioned from a traditional hunter gatherer diet to bread sugar coffee and salted meat being provided by the govt because there was nothing left to hunt. This diet cause an explosion of obesity in the population. During one extended period of famine (govt officials used to steal some of the food, or replace it with rotten food), there were these pictures of really fat mothers holding malnourished babies. The common belief was that these women were taking their babies food, otherwise why how else could they be fat when their was a huge food shortage? Talk about being judged! Anyway, there is plenty of evidence to show that a person can be fat while starving.]

Rice contributes to obesity?

This is news to me, do you have a link I can follow up, I find this very interesting.

 

[Jessta]

I agree with you example of the cars, that is a bullshit deal.

Now tell me, what kind of idiot without any self control would take that deal?

Cause if you know him, tell him i got a bridge to rent to him for 15 dollars a month.

The idea was to make his example closer to the difference between MMO deals and regular video game deals by warping the difference of that basic car deal he had brought out via putting features sported by MMOs into it.
IE.
You buy the deal for a shit load of cash to start with, but then you have to keep paying each month or all that money you paid in the first place goes to waste, meaning a lot of people will keep paying for it because they don't want to waste the 150 dollars they already paid for the game and all its expansions + the 15$ per month they have played.
and you have to put a lot in to get a little out is in reference to how MMOs make about 75% of their content out of repetitious fetch quests and parts you have to grind for hours on end to get through. (Putting a lot in like 50 gallons of gas to only get a little out of what you paid for like 1 mile of movement being analogous to putting four hours of gameplay in to only get as much fun out of it as you could get from 30 minutes in a well designed game for compelling you to play and not a well designed game for demanding that you play.)

Which if Dreach had actually been bothered to have read the original post of the thread it said, why do you hate MMOs and went on to ask why we didn't personally play them and that's my reasoning for hating MMOs and not personally playing them, not because they ruined my life, but because if I wanted to get into them I would have to throw my life away for them. of course I already understand if he sees this he isn't going to read the whole thing and is just going to say something along the lines of NO NO NO I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR CAREFULLY THOUGHT OUT REASONING, I HAVE A COMMONLY STATED COUNTER ARGUMENT THAT DOESN'T REALLY COUNTER ANYTHING YOU JUST SAID BUT CALLS YOU NAMES!