What's with the MMO hate, you hateful haters?

[BloatedGuppy]

It'd be awesome that this has gone on for 6 pages, as there was actually some pretty good discussion in here, but it's been a flame war for about 2 pages now, which is unfortunate (if inevitable, this is the internet after all).

To clarify my position...

1. I do acknowledge that there is an element of skinner box psychological prodding going on in modern MMOs, but I don't think it's quite as all enveloping as has been suggested. The genre is changing, it's evolving. They're much less sinister than they used to be, and are much easier to play casually.

2. I do agree that the "bottomless" nature of the games, and the inherent competitiveness that comes from playing with other people, can make them compelling in a way that isn't always extremely healthy for those of us who have trouble knowing when enough is enough.

3. I disagree that they're "fake fun", and that the only reason to play them is addiction. I actually think there's some pretty good game play in some of them. Maybe not to everyone's specific taste, but nothing is. Too much is made of the repetitiveness. Any game can be boiled down in core repetitive actions if you want to disparage it.

4. I do think the developers need to be cognizant that people can develop some extremely unhealthy habits with these things, and takes steps to encourage that NOT TO HAPPEN. Some of them are doing really good in this regard. They can do better.

Akalabeth, you've argued passionately and relentlessly and you tired me right out. You've been a bit of a jerk, but then again I was a bit of a jerk too. I still disagree with you that stereotypes are okay, but I understand your perspective on the genre and I respect it, even if we're not in total agreement on every point.

Jessta, I'm sorry if you felt attacked. I took umbrage with your "this is why MMO players don't get the respect they think they deserve" comment and tried to make a point about using personal experience to make sweeping generalizations. This, apparently, went in like a personal attack. Dude, I think it's awesome that you took up exercise and turned your health around. More people need to follow your example. I'm sad that you had to put the genre down to do it, but you're not the first and won't be the last. Maybe some of the newer, gentler, friendlier breeds of MMO like Guild Wars 2 will fit better into your lifestyle.

 

[boag]

I agree with you example of the cars, that is a bullshit deal.

Now tell me, what kind of idiot without any self control would take that deal?

Cause if you know him, tell him i got a bridge to rent to him for 15 dollars a month.

The idea was to make his example closer to the difference between MMO deals and regular video game deals by warping the difference of that basic car deal he had brought out via putting features sported by MMOs into it.
IE.
You buy the deal for a shit load of cash to start with, but then you have to keep paying each month or all that money you paid in the first place goes to waste, meaning a lot of people will keep paying for it because they don't want to waste the 150 dollars they already paid for the game and all its expansions + the 15$ per month they have played.
and you have to put a lot in to get a little out is in reference to how MMOs make about 75% of their content out of repetitious fetch quests and parts you have to grind for hours on end to get through. (Putting a lot in like 50 gallons of gas to only get a little out of what you paid for like 1 mile of movement being analogous to putting four hours of gameplay in to only get as much fun out of it as you could get from 30 minutes in a well designed game for compelling you to play and not a well designed game for demanding that you play.)

Which if Dreach had actually been bothered to have read the original post of the thread it said, why do you hate MMOs and went on to ask why we didn't personally play them and that's my reasoning for hating MMOs and not personally playing them, not because they ruined my life, but because if I wanted to get into them I would have to throw my life away for them. of course I already understand if he sees this he isn't going to read the whole thing and is just going to say something along the lines of NO NO NO I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR CAREFULLY THOUGHT OUT REASONING, I HAVE A COMMONLY STATED COUNTER ARGUMENT THAT DOESN'T REALLY COUNTER ANYTHING YOU JUST SAID BUT CALLS YOU NAMES!

so you used and exagerated example, to get me to agree with your viewpoint, isnt that called a strawman argument?

Now, I completely agree that MMOS are desgined to be Time sinks with very frivolous ways to keep a gamer engaged. I for one fell for that during the Ragnarok Hey days, and recently did it again from early last year to late fall.

However, the idea of losing stuff is completely on the mind of the individual, its not the MMOs responsibility to say "Hey stop playing", which incidentally is something The S. Korean Government have started to do.

I strongly disagree with the point of, "they will ruin my life if I play them/ use up all my time/ etc etc" if you play them, because it denotes that people have no self responsibility and no self control, unless you were citing it directly for your case, and not generalizing.

If this is the case, then I withdraw my complaint, because you have a better perspective on what actions you will take, than some random person posting on the internet.


So clarifying, this is you own personal viewpoint on why "you" dont play MMos right?

 

[SweetShark]

Well, to put it simple for me:

-I don't have so much time to play for many hours an MMO game.
-I DON'T want to start playing an MMO for this specific reason.
-In my opinion I believe is a theft that they ask for more money. When you buy a game, I expect after that to play it for free. That why I respect some MMO that they do that, pay once, play for free all the time.
-I have a wallet and I am over 20 years old.......and still DON'T want to play and MMO!!!
-When I DON'T play an MMO or all the MMO in general, is doesn't mean that I HATE them!!!! I just DON'T CARE about them!!!
-I DON'T care about you if you enjoy MMO games. I accept others opinions like a mature person and I have a problem with that.
-I care about YOU that you judge the others for the different opinions they have. Accept their opinions like an adult and don't care about them.

That all.

 

[Jessta]

so you used and exagerated example, to get me to agree with your viewpoint, isnt that called a strawman argument?

Now, I completely agree that MMOS are desgined to be Time sinks with very frivolous ways to keep a gamer engaged. I for one fell for that during the Ragnarok Hey days, and recently did it again from early last year to late fall.

However, the idea of losing stuff is completely on the mind of the individual, its not the MMOs responsibility to say "Hey stop playing", which incidentally is something The S. Korean Government have started to do.

I strongly disagree with the point of, "they will ruin my life if I play them/ use up all my time/ etc etc" if you play them, because it denotes that people have no self responsibility and no self control, unless you were citing it directly for your case, and not generalizing.

If this is the case, then I withdraw my complaint, because you have a better perspective on what actions you will take, than some random person posting on the internet.


So clarifying, this is you own personal viewpoint on why "you" dont play MMos right?

A. It was originally YOU who had starting saying gaining weight, becoming annoyed and losing time is what is considered LIFE RUINING.

B. Actually you tried to warp what I was saying by using an analogy that didn't fit the situation so I warped the the analogy to fit the situation by adding in the elements that I was originally referring to.

C. The self control thing is a pretty legitimate statement, in that I'm just self controlling my self away from MMOs because they are total time sinks in a similar manner as I self control myself away from walking into heavy traffic because its not a very good idea. When you ask someone why they don't do MMOs, and they respond, its a VERY stupid answer to say, Well then that's your fault for playing MMOS! I think an analogy that you actually used was by comparing them to fatty foods, and in this case it actually kind of works because fatty foods work in a somewhat similar manner in that you give up a lot to use them but in the end don't get much in return in the shape of nourishment or fulfillment. (although they aren't as all or nothing as MMOs in that you can just nibble on a cheeseburger and you'll still only be paying for one cheeseburger but with an MMO if you just decide to put say half an hour a day into it you will get ABSOLUTELY NO WHERE because any dungeon requires at least an hour+)

D. Its not the MMOs job to say hey stop playing that's true. It's my job, and that's why I'm not playing, why ask people why they don't play MMOS then counter with that kind of argument? it just doesn't make any sense.

E. Damn straight these are my personal views, it's not like I'm giving you your personal views now am I? that doesn't mean they are any less true. Its not like I just said, MMOS EAT YOUR WALLET AND TIME either. I gave perfectly valid reasons and actual examples (Not analogies, which, by the way, are NOT the same thing as examples) of how it works and how I came to my conclusions. Just because you decided to ignore said examples and reasons and go straight for attacking the opinion behind them doesn't make them any less existent.

PS. If you wanted a pros cons list without personal opinions and emotions being involved you shouldn't have used words like YOU (which makes it look like you are asking for peoples personal opinions) or HATE (which makes it look like you are curious about their emotions on the the matter) in the description, rather you should have said something like, why are MMOS unpopular? If you had said that I would have probably said something like:
Slow paced repetitive combat
Extremely boring and uninspired quests/objectives
Huge open world set up for you to look at but not really effect in anyway. (Frustrating)
Socialization is rolled under the carpet for minimaxing (You'll see people dump their friends from participating with them because they are missing a couple pieces of gear or they aren't the right class and strangers on those games all have the single minded approach of using you to further their own fantasy life and beyond that couldn't give a shit)
Biggest example of a Skinners box approach EVER (Evil)
horribly over priced, end up being more expensive than any other form of gaming.
Giant time sink
Tailored for obsession and unaccommodating to casual play (How our big ass argument started in the first place.)
Online play only (Not as big an issue but it's still an issue)
Have to continually worry about trolls, flamers, hackers, spammers, ninjas, and the rest of the scum of the net which tacks on Aggravating.
Made from the souls of dead babies and Chinese gold farmers.
More focused on the meta-game than the actual game.
So basically they're boring, aggravating, frustrating, annoying, expensive, and evil.
(Also again, I'm talking the big main stream MMOs like WoW, Rift, or Everquest, not technical MMOs like league of legends or starcraft, nor Innovative MMOs, like Dragons nest, DC universe online or Minecraft which fix a few of these problems like the money sink, the repetitive quests, the boring combat, and the unshakable world. )

 

[Jessta]

Whoops double post, hit quoute instead of edit it looks like

 

[evilneko]

You play it for a while, and then you realize it's all just pointless clicking, doing the same thing over and over, without the usual enticements to keep you engaged. And then you realize you spent money on this. Some people just like that sort of thing I suppose....

I donno if I really hate MMOs, but I've come to realize that I just don't have the right personality for them. When it comes to online play I'm downright anti-social. I view other players with suspicion, as rivals and thieves and overall hindrances to my play, rather than as potential companions, groupmates, or friends.

Actually I think I enjoyed playing the Auction House in WoW more than..well... actually playing WoW. If I could get a free account where I could do just that I'd probably play it every day. >.>

 

[boag]

so you used and exagerated example, to get me to agree with your viewpoint, isnt that called a strawman argument?

Now, I completely agree that MMOS are desgined to be Time sinks with very frivolous ways to keep a gamer engaged. I for one fell for that during the Ragnarok Hey days, and recently did it again from early last year to late fall.

However, the idea of losing stuff is completely on the mind of the individual, its not the MMOs responsibility to say "Hey stop playing", which incidentally is something The S. Korean Government have started to do.

I strongly disagree with the point of, "they will ruin my life if I play them/ use up all my time/ etc etc" if you play them, because it denotes that people have no self responsibility and no self control, unless you were citing it directly for your case, and not generalizing.

If this is the case, then I withdraw my complaint, because you have a better perspective on what actions you will take, than some random person posting on the internet.


So clarifying, this is you own personal viewpoint on why "you" dont play MMos right?

A. It was originally YOU who had starting saying gaining weight, becoming annoyed and losing time is what is considered LIFE RUINING.

B. Actually you tried to warp what I was saying by using an analogy that didn't fit the situation so I warped the the analogy to fit the situation by adding in the elements that I was originally referring to.

C. The self control thing is a pretty legitimate statement, in that I'm just self controlling my self away from MMOs because they are total time sinks in a similar manner as I self control myself away from walking into heavy traffic because its not a very good idea. When you ask someone why they don't do MMOs, and they respond, its a VERY stupid answer to say, Well then that's your fault for playing MMOS! I think an analogy that you actually used was by comparing them to fatty foods, and in this case it actually kind of works because fatty foods work in a somewhat similar manner in that you give up a lot to use them but in the end don't get much in return in the shape of nourishment or fulfillment. (although they aren't as all or nothing as MMOs in that you can just nibble on a cheeseburger and you'll still only be paying for one cheeseburger but with an MMO if you just decide to put say half an hour a day into it you will get ABSOLUTELY NO WHERE because any dungeon requires at least an hour+)

D. Its not the MMOs job to say hey stop playing that's true. It's my job, and that's why I'm not playing, why ask people why they don't play MMOS then counter with that kind of argument? it just doesn't make any sense.

E. Damn straight these are my personal views, it's not like I'm giving you your personal views now am I? that doesn't mean they are any less true. Its not like I just said, MMOS EAT YOUR WALLET AND TIME either. I gave perfectly valid reasons and actual examples (Not analogies, which, by the way, are NOT the same thing as examples) of how it works and how I came to my conclusions. Just because you decided to ignore said examples and reasons and go straight for attacking the opinion behind them doesn't make them any less existent.

PS. If you wanted a pros cons list without personal opinions and emotions being involved you shouldn't have used words like YOU (which makes it look like you are asking for peoples personal opinions) or HATE (which makes it look like you are curious about their emotions on the the matter) in the description, rather you should have said something like, why are MMOS unpopular? If you had said that I would have probably said something like:
Slow paced repetitive combat
Extremely boring and uninspired quests/objectives
Huge open world set up for you to look at but not really effect in anyway. (Frustrating)
Socialization is rolled under the carpet for minimaxing (You'll see people dump their friends from participating with them because they are missing a couple pieces of gear or they aren't the right class and strangers on those games all have the single minded approach of using you to further their own fantasy life and beyond that couldn't give a shit)
Biggest example of a Skinners box approach EVER (Evil)
horribly over priced, end up being more expensive than any other form of gaming.
Giant time sink
Tailored for obsession and unaccommodating to casual play (How our big ass argument started in the first place.)
Online play only (Not as big an issue but it's still an issue)
Have to continually worry about trolls, flamers, hackers, spammers, ninjas, and the rest of the scum of the net which tacks on Aggravating.
Made from the souls of dead babies and Chinese gold farmers.
More focused on the meta-game than the actual game.
So basically they're boring, aggravating, frustrating, annoying, expensive, and evil.
(Also again, I'm talking the big main stream MMOs like WoW, Rift, or Everquest, not technical MMOs like league of legends or starcraft, nor Innovative MMOs, like Dragons nest, DC universe online or Minecraft which fix a few of these problems like the money sink, the repetitive quests, the boring combat, and the unshakable world. )

Would you mind re-reading my posts, I think you might have quoted me instead of someone else, because I havent talked or warped any conversation into a fast food debate.

Its either that or you are projecting part of your own experience into it.

 

[Jessta]

Would you mind re-reading my posts, I think you might have quoted me instead of someone else, because I havent talked or warped any conversation into a fast food debate.

Its either that or you are projecting part of your own experience into it.

Whoooooooooooooops I think I was talking to Draech originally and at one point one of you quoted my response to the other one and I started to talking to both of you without realizing which was which, which explains why the two of you have been taking bits and pieces of my overall argument I guess. Sorry bout that.
(The fast food analogy part was when someone said that it's like a fat guy saying Mcdonalds made him fat, which if he got fat eating Mcdonalds, then Mcdonalds food made him fat.)