What's with the MMO hate, you hateful haters?

[BloatedGuppy]

It's a pretty observable trend that a sizable portion of this community hates Massively Multiplayer games, or specifically MMORPGS, in the vein of WoW, and TOR, etc. And when I say "hate", I mean ya'll just LOATHE them. As though they were some form of gaming herpes. You can feel the lips curling in disgust through the screen.

What's going on with that?

Is it the subscription fee? You know that most MMOs are designed to be played for hundreds of hours, yeah? On an hour per dollar basis, they're arguably one of the cheapest forms of entertainment in existence. Hating them for being too expensive is like hating Kraft Dinner for being too fancy.

Is it the fact you're forced to endure the company of other people? I can sort of understand that, because MMO communities are full of loathsome twats, but here we all are on an internet forum. You see what I'm getting at here, surely. You don't need me to spell it out for you.

Is it the fact a lot of you poor beggars are laboring away on consoles, instead of playing games on a PC like proper gamers? I KID, I KID.

Is it because you're all under the age of 20, and you don't have a credit card, or you do have a credit card, but it's full of charges for Ramen noodles and Eastern European porn?

I don't think I've ever seen such a polarizing genre of games in all my years of gaming. You're all such mean girls about it. I demand your hostile, sneering explanations, post haste.

 

[Steampunk Viking]

It's the double M in the acronym. It's like the genre is too good to have just the one M.

 

[Legiondude]

I think it's because of the fact that from an "outsiders" perspective, they seem to suck out a persons soul

And their wallet

Mostly their wallet

 

[Jdb]

The grind. People don't like to feel their time is being wasted, which is what grinds can do. They would rather play the game instead of preparing to play it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The grind. People don't like to feel their time is being wasted, which is what grinds can do. They would rather play the game instead of preparing to play it.

I hear that, but you need to define "grinding". The term grind gets thrown around a lot, and the definition is, to say the least, nebulous.

What makes something "playing" instead of "grinding"?

I think it's because of the fact that from an "outsiders" perspective, they seem to suck out a persons soul

And their wallet

Mostly their wallet

Well, they can be very addictive, it's true. I've put in over 1,000 hours on a couple of single player games. No one has ever accused those single player games as sucking out a person's soul. I actually think the degree to which they're addictive has been greatly overstated, too, since Everquest. The whole skinner box thing has quieted down since then as a design philosophy. Newer MMOs are a lot less psychologically cruel.

As for the wallet thing, no no no! I spend 300% less on games when playing MMOs vs playing regular titles, even taking Steam sales into account. MMOs are super CHEAP, unless you fall ass backwards into microtransactions.

 

[darkcalling]

Personally they just aren't fun for me. I prefer to have more say over combat than clicking autoattack and then clicking hotkeys for spells and such. It's the one thing I just loathed about Dragon Age: Origins.

The only one that's ever been fun for me was Dungeon Fighter Online and even that didn't last very long. That one plays like an old school arcade brawler.

Also the multiplayer aspect does turn me off of them a lot. I tend to have more fun with a game when playing alone. In multiplayer I tend to wind up grouped with either useless idiots who know less about how the game works than I do, or high level players that make me feel useless.

My friend talked me into giving WoW a try and rather than let me experience it at my own pace like I wanted to he insisted on power-leveling me so he'd have another raid partner.

 

[Erttheking]

I personally don't have any problems with MMOs, heck I used to play one, I just don't enjoy playing them that much anymore because the time and dedication it takes to get up to a level where the veteran players don't kill you with one attack is more than I'm willing to put in. Also monthly fees make them rather unappealing, if they were all free I'd probably go back to runescape.

 

[The Abhorrent]

It's a pretty observable trend that a sizable portion of this community hates Massively Multiplayer games, or specifically MMORPGS, in the vein of WoW, and TOR, etc. And when I say "hate", I mean ya'll just LOATHE them. As though they were some form of gaming herpes. You can feel the lips curling in disgust through the screen.

What's going on with that?

The idea of saying "an MMORPG ruined my life" is a strong possibility in many cases, it's probably a strong correlation between the intense loathing the genre receives; though you should keep in mind that this doesn't just apply to the extreme cases, even a minor dependency to an MMORPG can cause problems which are noteworthy. Do these minor cases ruin lives outright? No, but they can certainly get in the way of enjoying many other things in one's life.

That alone pretty much results in a very bitter former MMORPG player, and it's only made worse by the fact it's by design. Becoming dependent on a game may partially be the player's own fault, but those who made the game are not entirely innocent; the fundamental design of the genre is unethical, and the most those responsible try to do is mitagate the severity of the symptoms.

Those minor cases mentioned earlier?
They're endemnic.

Is it the subscription fee? You know that most MMOs are designed to be played for hundreds of hours, yeah? On an hour per dollar basis, they're arguably one of the cheapest forms of entertainment in existence. Hating them for being too expensive is like hating Kraft Dinner for being too fancy.

It's cheaper to play an MMORPG, that's true... but again, those who loathe the genre are usually former players. They paid the fee, probably quite happily at the time; they hate the genre now for other reasons. At most, they detest that particular aspect for what it represents -- continually profitting off of an engineered dependency.

Is it the fact you're forced to endure the company of other people? I can sort of understand that, because MMO communities are full of loathsome twats, but here we all are on an internet forum. You see what I'm getting at here, surely. You don't need me to spell it out for you.

Certainly not helping the matter, certainly... but I'm sure you've seen many MMO forums as well. They're some of the worst communities you can find, this is friendly & welcoming in comparison. When the community in question is worse than the internet at large, there's a wee bit of a problem there.

 

[sifffffff]

Until TOR I was actually a bit afraid of MMORPGs. I read a pretty well written article a while back by a guy detailing how a combination of Everquest and Depression cost him several years of his life. Obviously the game wasn't the problem, the depression was and the game became his way of coping much like some people turn to alcohol or drugs but the idea that I might start playing a game and become a pale skinned computer bound fiend frightened me.

I finally took a chance and bought TOR about two weeks ago. So far I haven't taken any steps down the path of gaming addiction. I'm not playing it any more than any other game I've played and it's a lot of fun.

I'm not sure what people mean by the grind either. I suppose if you play an MMO only to level up so that you can raid it would feel like a grind. So far that's one of the benefits of TOR. It doesn't feel grindy to me because I'm doing a story while completing quests.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Until TOR I was actually a bit afraid of MMORPGs. I read a pretty well written article a while back by a guy detailing how a combination of Everquest and Depression cost him several years of his life. Obviously the game wasn't the problem, the depression was and the game became his way of coping much like some people turn to alcohol or drugs but the idea that I might start playing a game and become a pale skinned computer bound fiend frightened me.

To be fair, your friend had an argument with Everquest.

You might enjoy this: http://www.nickyee.com/eqt/skinner.html

 

[VargRaev]

The grind. People don't like to feel their time is being wasted, which is what grinds can do. They would rather play the game instead of preparing to play it.

I hear that, but you need to define "grinding". The term grind gets thrown around a lot, and the definition is, to say the least, nebulous.

What makes something "playing" instead of "grinding"?

I guess "Grinding" is when you arent playing for fun, but rather, to fullfill a certain Quota, like, say, gearing up for raiding or high-end pvp


Just a guess ofc, i never really did any of that, bu then again, the only time i tried raiding was in WoTLK when my guild 40-manned Zul'Grurub... we wiped thrice ^^

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The idea of saying "an MMORPG ruined my life" is a strong possibility in many cases, it's probably a strong correlation between the intense loathing the genre receives; though you should keep in mind that this doesn't just apply to the extreme cases, even a minor dependency to an MMORPG can cause problems which are noteworthy. Do these minor cases ruin lives outright? No, but they can certainly get in the way of enjoying many other things in one's life.

That alone pretty much results in a very bitter former MMORPG player, and it's only made worse by the fact it's by design. Becoming dependent on a game may partially be the player's own fault, but those who made the game are not entirely innocent; the fundamental design of the genre is unethical, and the most those responsible try to do is mitagate the severity of the symptoms.

Those minor cases mentioned earlier?
They're endemnic.

This is a good point that I overlooked, the embittered ex-MMO player who let a MMO run away with his life for a time, but shouldn't that toxic outlook be restricted to the title in question, and not the genre as a whole? Why would you hate EVE if WoW ruined your life? Wasn't it really YOU that ruined your life? Wasn't that lesson learned? When I played CoH obsessively for two weeks, both destroying my vacation and destroying my enthusiasm for CoH, I didn't say "No more MMOs for me, they are EVIL", I said "Boy was I an idiot, I won't be doing that again!". It does seem slightly unfair to lay gamer's inabilities to control their compulsions at the feet of a genre.

With the already noted exception of Everquest, which was somewhat sinister (if awesome!).

Certainly not helping the matter, certainly... but I'm sure you've seen many MMO forums as well. They're some of the worst communities you can find, this is friendly & welcoming in comparison. When the community in question is worse than the internet at large, there's a wee bit of a problem there.

It's really NOT worse than the internet at large, it's just less well moderated, on account of the fact that the idiots are paying customers instead of just passing through. You can't be a vigilant about weeding them out. There's still a core of decent human beings there to be interacted with. I've met some pretty incredibly cool people over the years in MMOs, mingling with the teeming hordes of yahoos.

 

[boag]

It's a pretty observable trend that a sizable portion of this community hates Massively Multiplayer games, or specifically MMORPGS, in the vein of WoW, and TOR, etc. And when I say "hate", I mean ya'll just LOATHE them. As though they were some form of gaming herpes. You can feel the lips curling in disgust through the screen.

What's going on with that?

Is it the subscription fee? You know that most MMOs are designed to be played for hundreds of hours, yeah? On an hour per dollar basis, they're arguably one of the cheapest forms of entertainment in existence. Hating them for being too expensive is like hating Kraft Dinner for being too fancy.

Is it the fact you're forced to endure the company of other people? I can sort of understand that, because MMO communities are full of loathsome twats, but here we all are on an internet forum. You see what I'm getting at here, surely. You don't need me to spell it out for you.

Is it the fact a lot of you poor beggars are laboring away on consoles, instead of playing games on a PC like proper gamers? I KID, I KID.

Is it because you're all under the age of 20, and you don't have a credit card, or you do have a credit card, but it's full of charges for Ramen noodles and Eastern European porn?

I don't think I've ever seen such a polarizing genre of games in all my years of gaming. You're all such mean girls about it. I demand your hostile, sneering explanations, post haste.

Lets see, pay 30 bucks a month to play the same grindfest with no end in sight, or no compelling storyline tying it up, or buy a brand new game that will let me enjoy it for as long as I want even after the main is done, and then I can jump to a another game.


yes you are right, MMOS are the pinnacle of gaming, everyone who doesnt love them is clearly a heathen. /sarcasm

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Lets see, pay 30 bucks a month to play the same grindfest with no end in sight, or no compelling storyline tying it up, or buy a brand new game that will let me enjoy it for as long as I want even after the main is done, and then I can jump to a another game.

yes you are right, MMOS are the pinnacle of gaming, everyone who doesnt love them is clearly a heathen. /sarcasm

THIRTY BUCKS A MONTH? Are we talking pesos here?

"For as long as I want" usually translates into 30-40 hours, depending on genre. That's a fair average, I think.

I certainly never said they were the pinnacle of anything. I'm arguing that they're not the NADIR. You bloody heathen.

 

[Yureina]

Having played MMO's for several years in the past, I did eventually come up with some criticisms, though I am certainly not a "hater" or anything like that. Rather, my problem with MMO's come from the fact that it is exhausting and a never ending cycle of grind/success. Eventually, you get to the point that what you are doing is essentially the same thing over and over again. When that happens, unless you have a massive amount of friends you like to spend time with in the game, it ends up dying a slow death. Still, I managed to sink 5 1/2 years into WoW before the last trace of fun was killed for me, and that decision had less to do with boredom and more to do with Blizzard skullfucking my class (Holy Priest) and healers in general prior to Cataclysm than anything else.

 

[Swyftstar]

I don't loathe them. I just don't like the endgame. It requires too much repetition in the hopes that you get the item you want with the .005% chance of dropping.

 

[boag]

Lets see, pay 30 bucks a month to play the same grindfest with no end in sight, or no compelling storyline tying it up, or buy a brand new game that will let me enjoy it for as long as I want even after the main is done, and then I can jump to a another game.

yes you are right, MMOS are the pinnacle of gaming, everyone who doesnt love them is clearly a heathen. /sarcasm

THIRTY BUCKS A MONTH? Are we talking pesos here?

"For as long as I want" usually translates into 30-40 hours, depending on genre. That's a fair average, I think.

I certainly never said they were the pinnacle of anything. I'm arguing that they're not the NADIR. You bloody heathen.

My apologies then, I have not payed for an MMO since Galaxies came out, I have however been privy to the experience at friends requests, and the Grindathon and random drops see to compare to something akin to Disgaea, with the added liability of needing a groupd of 4 to 5 people to take on the monsters that have the best drops, the whole organizing for a weekly shore like that is sickening. I would not wish it upon any enemy.

My hatred for MMOs stem primarily from these issues, and the fact that none has seemed to push past the ideas that have been set by WOW.

But I will admit that it is an illogical hate, that stems deeply from emotional issues derived from Playing RO.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

My apologies then, I have not payed for an MMO since Galaxies came out, I have however been privy to the experience at friends requests, and the Grindathon and random drops see to compare to something akin to Disgaea, with the added liability of needing a groupd of 4 to 5 people to take on the monsters that have the best drops, the whole organizing for a weekly shore like that is sickening. I would not wish it upon any enemy.

My hatred for MMOs stem primarily from these issues, and the fact that none has seemed to push past the ideas that have been set by WOW.

But I will admit that it is an illogical hate, that stems deeply from emotional issues derived from Playing RO.

The genre is definitely moving away from forced grouping, although it's been a gradual push. The days of "me and 40 of my closest friends" seem to be behind us, thank god. As I've gotten older I've become increasingly reluctant to play with strangers, and like to confine my interaction in-game with existing friends and my girlfriend. And each new MMO that has come out has made it easier and easier for me to do that, to the point where advocates of the old school of forced grouping and massive raids are now sullenly accusing the genre of having become "Massively Single Player".

Eventually, you get to the point that what you are doing is essentially the same thing over and over again. When that happens, unless you have a massive amount of friends you like to spend time with in the game, it ends up dying a slow death. Still, I managed to sink 5 1/2 years into WoW before the last trace of fun was killed for me, and that decision had less to do with boredom and more to do with Blizzard skullfucking my class (Holy Priest) and healers in general prior to Cataclysm than anything else.

It's true, but we've come to have bizarre expectations for these games. We'll play them for 5,000 hours, then complain loudly that we're doing the same thing over and over, as if ANYTHING could stay fresh for that long. 5 1/2 years of anything is a remarkable achievement for an entertainment product.

 

[The Abhorrent]

This is a good point that I overlooked, the embittered ex-MMO player who let a MMO run away with his life for a time, but shouldn't that toxic outlook be restricted to the title in question, and not the genre as a whole? Why would you hate EVE if WoW ruined your life? Wasn't it really YOU that ruined your life? Wasn't that lesson learned? When I played CoH obsessively for two weeks, both destroying my vacation and destroying my enthusiasm for CoH, I didn't say "No more MMOs for me, they are EVIL", I said "Boy was I an idiot, I won't be doing that again!". It does seem slightly unfair to lay gamer's inabilities to control their compulsions at the feet of a genre.

Directing one's ire towards one particular game certainly seems more sensible, but it's quite clear that the issues are not restricted to any single game. As I said, this is a problem the basic design template. So long as the game is reliant on "carrot-on-a-stick" techniques to keep ahold of it's playerbase, in order to keep them continually paying their subscriptions, these issues will persist. If it were just one game to which was doing these issues, the complaints would be directed solely at that game. They aren't, it's part of the fundamental design template for every single known MMO.

The most basic, and fundamental, of these design decisions is the idea that the game does not end. If you can name any MMO which doesn't at least try take advantage of this, I will be surprised. So long as the game doesn't end, those subscriptions just keep coming in. Some MMOs have moved to Free-to-Play models, but those still take advantage of micro-transactions. Both versions have some form of carrot-on-a-stick techniques at play, making players keep going rather than relying on the game's actual merits to be enjoyable. Of course, other non-MMOs use carrot-on-a-stick techniques as well... but the fundamental difference remains, they end. By giving a game some finality, the issues with dependency go away even with the most expansive titles; but when you keep adding new content and especially new incentives (gear upgrades being the most obvious example) to do said content, the issue just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

---

As for the player being at fault as well... the point is that they aren't the only ones who carry the blame, especially since those minor cases are not isolated. The former MMO player does learn from their mistake, but at the same time they see all the signs of the same issue in the people who are still playing. I've used the excuse "I'm nowhere as bad as the worst cases" countless times when I was dependent; and it's just that, making excuses. Now think about what one would feel when they see others doing the exact same thing. As I said, the issues are endemnic; as is the rampant denial and watering down of the true scope of the situation, from both the players and the developpers.

And don't you dare start with the "It's not your problem" argument.

It's really NOT worse than the internet at large, it's just less well moderated, on account of the fact that the idiots are paying customers instead of just passing through. You can't be a vigilant about weeding them out. There's still a core of decent human beings there to be interacted with. I've met some pretty incredibly cool people over the years in MMOs, mingling with the teeming hordes of yahoos.

You might be correct about the basic problems not being worse than the rest of the 'net; nevertheless, the situation is worse due to the aforementioned lack of moderation. These are the jerks who will use any excuse & defense to justify them ruining other people's day, and in MMOs they have it.

 

[ChildishLegacy]

'Cause the media, and more importantly, Yahtzee said they're shit.

Honestly don't get the money arguments either, you could save £8 per month by cutting out 1 thing out of your life, like maybe save on transport costs for 2 days per month by walking somewhere you normally wouldn't, taking food from home instead of buying it while you're out etc. They drain your wallet about as much as any other luxury does.

But what do I know, I clearly don't have a soul anymore because i used to play WoW.