What's Wrong with the new Star Wars?

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Twilight_guy

Sight, Sound, and Mind
Nov 24, 2008
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Because the people who complain are old enough to be blinded by nostalgia. It doesn't matter if there are worse films in the world, the whinny eight year old in the soul cries so loud only the notion of "you killed my childhood" can be heard. There is always more complaining over adding a bad movie to a franchise then just making a bad movie.
 

GodotIsWaiting4U

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Jun 9, 2009
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I say the following as a huge Star Wars fan.

The Star Wars saga is a series of enjoyable but ultimately quite bad movies.

There is not a single exception in the entire saga, 1-6. The constant insistence that the prequels are significantly worse than the original trilogy owes far more to nostalgia value than to any quality that the original trilogy actually possesses.

The only genuinely GOOD Star Wars media rests in the Expanded Universe materials.

That said, even the bad stuff is still quite enjoyable. Mostly. I still count myself as a huge Star Wars fan, to the point that I have a library of Star Wars games and books and I'm even a fairly avid player of the Star Wars tabletop RPG (I have literally ALL the books for Saga Edition). I just keep this stuff in perspective.

Also, the new Clone Wars show may actually be one of the best Star Wars visual media released as yet, and it's certainly one of the best shows Cartoon Network has had since Samurai Jack got canceled.
 

badgersprite

[--SYSTEM ERROR--]
Sep 22, 2009
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You're entitled to your opinion, and I don't begrudge your right to like movies, but, reading the points you made in the OP, I personally couldn't disagree more with everything that you said. More engaging characters? Really? REALLY? The story was no worse than the originals? REALLY? I remember being so bored during the screening of The Phantom Menace that I fell asleep, even though I regularly sat and watched all three original Star Wars movies back to back without getting bored for a second at the same age.

Going back and rewatching them recently, I still disliked them. In my experience of them, The prequels were unnecessarily long, the stories they told didn't make sense, not even just in the sense of how they clashed with the original trilogy. Anakin was always evil, at least in how he acted. Palpatine's strategies to advance himself politically make no sense when you stop and think about them. And, maybe these things are explained in the expanded universe, but, really, most people who went to see these movies are just people who saw the old movies. Most of the audience had probably never read a Star Wars book (I myself had never read one until after the Phantom Menace, and all the book did was give Darth Maul's backstory.)

Really, though, you could hear this from anyone, and I don't like being the bad guy shitting on something you like. The only thing I have to add that hasn't already been pointed out is what you said about 'acrobatic fighting'. If you really think the Jedi are all about doing cool moves with swords then you missed the point of what the Jedi are. Those fights sucked the meaning and depth and soul out of The Force. A Jedi is more than a guy with a sword, and, if that's all the Jedi are, then what's special about them? What separates them from the Sith other than the colour of their light sabers?

Jedi are supposed to be beyond fighting and violence. That is why the two best moments in Star Wars, in my opinion, are the moments when Obi Wan stops fighting and lets Vader strike him down, and the moment when Luke casts aside his light saber and refuses to give in to the Emperor and the dark side. That is what being a Jedi is all about. Not superpowers, flashy moves or spinning around with swords.

But you'll probably disagree with me and tell me that makes Star Wars boring. I guess you're entitled to that too. We can agree to disagree on these movies, I suppose, but I just wanted to explain to you my perspective on things. I hope that clears things up for you.

NickCaligo42 said:
Very well said. Especially about the force. My feelings exactly.
 

Toriver

Lvl 20 Hedgehog Wizard
Jan 25, 2010
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I don't really have a problem with the whole "midi-chlorians are the Force" thing. All it really does is explain where the Force comes from. The whole "light side/dark side" thing could merely be a construct set up by the Jedi and Sith to explain proper use of the Force given your rather large amount of power over others.

And when you take the story in general, it's not that bad. It's not terribly original, but it's passable as a way to explain the origins of many characters and how things lead to the point where Episode 4 begins.

That said, as movies go, they really are bad. The acting is some of the worst I have seen in any movie, EVER. They can be partially forgiven, though, because the dialogue is absolutely horrible. And the way they write some characters into the story is just ridiculously cheesy too. Come on. Anakin builds C-3PO as a kid? Please. You really want me to believe that in a galaxy as large as that of the one in Star Wars, a kid builds one protocol droid out of millions or even billions, becomes one of the biggest badasses in the galaxy, and gets rid of the droid. They spend 20-some years in their seperate ways. Then that droid just happens to fall into the hands of the badass' son and plays a pivotal role in taking his father down? No way. What would have been the problem of leaving C-3PO out of the prequels? Sure, the fans wouldn't have gotten to see him, but that's understandable. We didn't see Han Solo either, but we fans understood that because he would have been too young to do anything at the time. C-3PO is another character that would have been better left out altogether.

And we could have used a bit better explanation of exactly what the Trade Federation was doing to spark the conflict in the first place, and what was behind it. It all seemed too vague. Seeing more of the political dealing that allowed Palpatine to take control may not be the most exciting thing in the world, but it would have given us a better insight into the story and the origins of the Empire.

Along those same lines, if the Jedi are all about doing good and respecting life and all that, why in the hell would they green-light the use of commercially-grown clone troops for a war? That flies in the face of good and respect for life, and just about everything they believe in. Justify THAT, Yoda!

Next, let's talk character names. Names alone can set the tone for how a character is perceived. Count Dooku and General Grievous, I'm looking at you. Really, how painfully cliche of a villain name is Grievous? I grieve for the writer who thought that up. Then there's Dooku, on the other end of the spectrum. Strikes laughter, rather than fear, into the hearts of men. They weren't really bad characters, but their names were.... uggh.

Then there's just bad characters to begin with. And we-sah all know who me-sah thinking of, yes? I'm not saying anything more about that.

But anyway, those are my issues with the prequels. They could have been worse, but that doesn't mean they weren't really bad to begin with.
 

DustyDrB

Made of ticky tacky
Jan 19, 2010
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I like them.

It seems some people are pretty passionate about hating them.
 

itsnotyouitsme

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Dec 27, 2008
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Wapox said:
Midi-chlorians and the Chosen One

Midi-chlorians (also spelled "midi-clorians" or "midichlorians") are a microorganism in the fictional Star Wars galaxy, first mentioned in The Phantom Menace. They are microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things and communicate with the Force.[6] They are symbionts with all other living things and without them life could not exist. The Jedi have learned how to listen to and coordinate the midi-chlorians. While every living being thus has a connection to the Force, one must have a high enough concentration of midi-chlorians in one's cells in order to be a Jedi or a Sith.[7][8]

Creator George Lucas says that the midi-chlorians are based on the endosymbiotic theory.[9]
Oh bugger me, i forgot there are people who research movies instead of taking in as you watch it. Sorry, I bow down before you and the wiki.
 

Jake the Snake

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Mar 25, 2009
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Only two major gripes I have with the Prequels: Jar Jar Binks (holy fuck christ, what was Mr. Lucas thinking) and The writing. Seriously Georgey, if you know you can't write well, get someone else to do it. Please.
 

Gahars

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Feb 4, 2008
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They are awful, awful, awful pieces of film.

Here, these can help.

http://redlettermedia.com/phantom_menace.html
http://redlettermedia.com/clones.html
http://redlettermedia.com/sith.html

And...

http://confusedmatthew.com/The-Star-Wars-Prequels.php

They pretty say everything that could possibly be said about these prequels.
 

duktapeman90

Fhqwhgads
Aug 16, 2009
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Auron555 said:
Do you have 4 hours to spare?
http://redlettermedia.com/phantom_menace.html
http://redlettermedia.com/clones.html
http://redlettermedia.com/sith.html

That's what's wrong.
Even though I totally agree with Plinkett (to a degree), I still can't bring myself to hate these movies. If that means I have horrible taste in movies, so be it. Don't get me wrong though, they aren't anywhere near the level of the originals. I think they garner so much hate because they have so much to live up to, so a just mediocre movie seems like a god-awful movie.
 

squid5580

Elite Member
Feb 20, 2008
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NickCaligo42 said:
Argument 1: The Force is Depressing in the Prequels and the Characters Suck as a Result
In the original trilogy the Force was a much more ethereal thing, a lost art which one could equate to the power of the imagination. Not psychic power, not magic, but pure imagination. It can be bent for great or terrible purposes, used to subjugate and manipulate others or for great good. Most of all, though, those who master it can make great things happen--one needs only to believe in it and in themselves, and to find the discipline to harness it as Luke did. Seeing his journey from a farm boy to the last Jedi Master was deeply inspiring for many people, making them feel as if they, too, could do great things.

Compare to the prequel trilogy. The Force isn't the power of the imagination made manifest, it's not something that anyone can master if they only learn to open their mind and channel it, it's reserved for the privileged; a thing of genetic inheritance that requires people to submit themselves to an elitist boarding school of monks.

Where the Jedi of the original trilogy were deeply in tune with their feelings and with nature, the Jedi of the prequels are a bunch of aristocrats who try to eliminate their emotions, aren't allowed to have relationships, can't have possessions or hobbies, and don't encourage creative potential but rather seek to subjugate it under a strict dogmatic code. Yes, there's reasons for that--but it makes them so in-human that they're impossible to have any interest in, let alone like. They could have put a telekinetic robot onstage in place of Samuel L. Jackson and it would've had the same effect, and that's a horrible waste of Samuel L. Jackson.

Further reinforcing this elitist attitude is the fact that these films focus almost exclusively on the Jedi, suggesting that they're the only ones that matter and that everybody else is just a pawn on their chess board. Apart from Anakin and Obi-Wan, and occasional bits with Mace Windu or Yoda, we just see Padme--and that's only because she's Anakin's love interest; a peripheral aspect to one of those elite.

Compare with the original trilogy, AGAIN, where Princess Leia is a pivotal leader in the fight against the Empire and where the participation of non-force user Han Solo SAVED LUKE'S LIFE on numerous occasions. Not only did the Force seem more special in the wake of all the very outstanding non-force-users in the cast, but these films offered that one didn't necessarily NEED it to be important, whereas the prequels hold that you're basically nothing without it and that it's more important than having healthy, understanding relationships with people.

You see now why these characters are so unbearably difficult to relate to?


Argument 2: There's Such a Thing as Too Much Action
Simply put, the action in the prequels is way too choreographed and sterile. Yes, it's impressive, but outside of a few pauses there's very little expression or emotion in the way the fight scenes flow. They're so busy going through pre-meditated dance steps that're just too damn fast for the eye to see that the actors don't really get a chance to give a performance.

You watch the fight with Darth Maul, you see lots of pretty colors and flips and spins with no really distinct way of telling what direction the fight's actually going in. They're just spinning and spinning and spinning and woops, Qui-Gon's dead.

You watch the fight between Luke and Vader on Cloud City, though, and you feel the dread as Vader repeatedly proves himself to be out of the kid's league, the chill of the wind as he hounds Luke through its tunnels and into the chasms of its airways. It's a better fight because it's much more real and because it's actually moving at a speed that you can keep up with.

Also, the characters are way better established. Compare with the fight against Count Dooku in Episode 2. Count who-ku? The guy just shows up at the end of the second act. We've never seen him before, we don't know who he is or what his motives are, he's just kinda' there throwing out random Sith-ish taunts that don't mean anything. Where A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back spent a lot of time building up Vader as a threat to the heroes--not to mention their relationships with one another--we just get villains sort of thrown at us out of nowhere in the prequels.

If you're still not buying my argument, though, think of it this way: To create any sense of tension in the final duels of Revenge of the Sith, which is the best of the prequels, Lucas had to do no less than set one in a gigantic arena full of flying saucers for the characters to hurl at each other and set the other on a magma planet with a half-dozen implausible moving setpieces in a river of lava. To create tension in the final duel of Return of the Jedi, all he had to do was put three characters in a quiet, dark throne room. I think that says a LOT about the strength of their respective stories.
Good read. Although I would like to point out that a non force wielding droid who resembles a garbage can saved all thier asses how many times?
 

Zykon TheLich

Extra Heretical!
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Jun 6, 2008
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They aren't unbelievably abysmal, they are just slightly below average hollywood filler material. Lots of CGI flash and far too much going on.

The originals aren't exactly the best films ever made but they have simple plots and concentrate on a small number of quite well played and written characters with clear objectives that carried on through all 3 films.
 

NickCaligo42

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Oct 7, 2007
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squid5580 said:
Good read. Although I would like to point out that a non force wielding droid who resembles a garbage can saved all thier asses how many times?
Yes, yes, yes, in a pinch R2-D2 somehow manages to always flip the switch or hack the door at the last second. Good for him, but that's one character, it's a robot with no voice, and I'd hardly venture him out as a big decision-maker in this story. He's more like the main characters' faithful dog than he is any kind of character in himself, and his presence in the prequels was not only unnecessary but also more than a little far-fetched. Not that I have anything against the little guy, mind you, but my point is that unlike most of the other characters who have some pretense to being people with emotions and desires motivating them, R2 really is just a convenient tool.
 

baddude1337

Taffer
Jun 9, 2010
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For me, too much focus on the politics of the time, which is fucking boring. I want to see Star Wars for the fun, good characters and awesome battle/fight scenes.

Though personally my favorite parts are the little snippets of the epic battles during the Clone Wars. I would see a film about just the battles. Probably one of the reasons I prefer The Clone Wars series to the prequel films.
 

Good morning blues

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Sep 24, 2008
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You know, I could give a pretty detailed response, but if you honestly think that the stories of the new movies are better and that the characters are more engaging, we're clearly not going to find any common ground in this debate. (Seriously, how are the new characters possibly more engaging? Did Anakin's talk about love being like sand really strike more of a chord with you than the valiant heroes, dashing rogues, and fearsome villains of the original trilogy?)
 

Basal

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Jun 3, 2010
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For me the orignal trilogy got me the moment the star destroyer came over the camera, and since then it has always been about the ships and the space combat.

This was some how totally abcent in the prequels.
I have too agree the lightsaber combat was better, how ever it would have been better if for example darth maul fight would have been in the second film and no Dooku.

And it just pissed me off that he threw away the entire expanded universe, eventhough some of the best stories of star wars are there.
 

Shameless

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Jun 28, 2010
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to me personally they are boring as hell. I for some reason liked Episode III when I first saw long time ago but when I saw it again it really bored me to death.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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squid5580 said:
Although I would like to point out that a non force wielding droid who resembles a garbage can saved all thier asses how many times?
R2's force use has been argued about since time immemorial. And given Vader is half metal, how come he can use the Force stronger than Kenobi if it's midichlorian based?

In fact, the entire biology of Star Wars (Hutts are immune to the Force?) is pretty rank.
 

squid5580

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Feb 20, 2008
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The_root_of_all_evil said:
squid5580 said:
Although I would like to point out that a non force wielding droid who resembles a garbage can saved all thier asses how many times?
R2's force use has been argued about since time immemorial. And given Vader is half metal, how come he can use the Force stronger than Kenobi if it's midichlorian based?

In fact, the entire biology of Star Wars (Hutts are immune to the Force?) is pretty rank.
Could be the suit increases the midichlorian levels of Vader. Couple that with the fact Ben was freakin ancient by then and was probably not keepin up on the ole Jedi training regiment. He didn't really exhibit any powers other than the Jedi mind trick a couple times before Vader made him disappear.
 

WingedFortress

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Feb 5, 2008
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Auron555 said:
Do you have 4 hours to spare?
http://redlettermedia.com/phantom_menace.html
http://redlettermedia.com/clones.html
http://redlettermedia.com/sith.html

That's what's wrong.
I remember this...when I think only the Phantom Menace review was out. For the first time in my life, ideas were placed in my head as though they had already been there. I think it gave me an extra 1% brainpower to be honest.

Now theres two more. Thank you.