When did PvE become "wuss" mode?

[zerobudgetgamer]

In my opinion there is no grater challenge than facing another human player.

In my experience, there is no greater challenge than making 25 people do what they are supposed to do for 5 minutes... hell, even not dying was a challenge for some of them.

And this doesn't apply to PvP somehow? Have you seen some of the battles in Eve Online? Hundreds of people on each side of the fight. A good FC in some PvP capable games is on par with a Korean SC2 pro, except in SC2 your units aren't drunk, not paying attention or disobeying on a regular basis.

It's not that it doesn't apply to PvP, per se, it's that the mere thought of applying the same thing to PvE is somehow such a draconian thought to game developers that they dare not consider it, much less implement it. See, for all the dramatization there is around how PvP is so much better, it's actually FAR easier of an option for designers. Think about it, if you want to create a 100-man Raid, you have to factor in the average dps this number of people can do, figure out how much health to give the boss so that it balances challenge with a reasonable time limit, make sure it can't do more damage than the tanks can take or the healers can heal, and then add any other parameters while trying to constantly keep in mind all 100 of those players.

But 100 v. 100, or 1000 v. 1000 PvP? Outside of creating the classes at the beginning of making the game and giving them an arena, absolutely nothing, AFAIK. NO extra coding has to go into making PvP outside of the specific areas that you can do it in, and in most games you don't even need that. I'm not saying PvP can't have some really thrilling outcomes, but looking at it from the other side of the coin, designers that decide to focus on PvP are typically taking the easier route, which seems to be what most PvPers harass PvEers for doing...

PvE is "Wuss Mode" simply because it's us against AI. They have set patterns, parameters they can't exceed, and are locked into their programming. People are not.

Characters are always restricted by the abilities/skills of their class, the parameters of their gear, and the programming that their classes have been given. They're simply given a small amount greater freedom. PvE bosses could be SO much more devastating and challenging, if designers were willing to go to the extra effort to make them as such.

 

[MorganL4]

We all play how we want to play, we set our own challenges. In my opinion there is no grater challenge than facing another human player.

I don't disagree, but it is not a "challenge" when the other player is 10 levels higher than you, and just likes being a jerk. I think THAT was the point of the OP, something that I have experienced countless times, I could handle someone 1-3 levels higher than me, but when you have a player that decides to go around ganking newbs...... and your toon is that newb it is just not fun.

 

[quantumsoul]

I though pve was always considered wuss mode. Don't get me wrong; I like it too but I find pvp more fun and satisfying when you do well.

 

[Something Amyss]

People always think their playstyle is the best. And about 80% of them will deride you for playing the game wrong.

 

[Delsana]

We all play how we want to play, we set our own challenges. In my opinion there is no grater challenge than facing another human player.

I'll take an AI any day, at least I can't tell their movements based on their clothes.

 

[miketehmage]

In WoW, PvE became a thing for "wussies" with the release of wotlk. Encounters were easier, tanking was easier, healing was easier, and DPSing was never hard in the first place.

PvP on the other hand requires knowledge of every class, it requires you to look for synergy between classes, to look for counters to other classes. And it requires constant communication and concentration. (I am talking about arenas only. Which frankly is the only non-broken PvP in the game)

PvE on the other hand requires none of this, unless you are a raid leader, it simply requires that you watch a tactic video.

Just so you know, I play both PvE and PvP, so I don't consider my opinion to be biased. Also from my experience, a skilled pvper will also excel in pve. But it doesn't always work the other way.

So I'd imagine that's the point they are making.

And of course, I'm aware that this is all in WoW context, butthats where I see the biggest divide between playstyles.

Kudos for choosing skyrim over MW though.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I used to play City of Heroes and my main character was a controller; extremely easy to kill but was a massive benefit to a team.

COX combat system is pants. Close combat/carrier attacks pwn all. Controllers had to take major nerfs before they were even playable against. Do you remember the days of 4 singularities?

Most PvP systems collapse into advantage stacking because if you put two humans against each other, you've got a third one trying to make it fair and a fourth one whinging about it.

PvP games, on the whole, are rubbish because they give completely unfair advantage to ping, graphic card, reactions, macros and a huge other set of factors. Even TF2 suffers from this at times, because if you get a good mix versus a bad mix, a good pair will dominate the others.

PvE is different because the E can cheat it's way up and down the scale so it provides you with a reasonable challenge - apart from if the rules are arbitrary, in which case the E wins because it can re-calculate far faster.

So, overall -
PvE : Better challenge with small set of rules.
PvP : Better challenge in level teams.

MMOs? Always better with PvE over PvP, because it's not ganking.

 

[phazaar]

It's not that it doesn't apply to PvP, per se, it's that the mere thought of applying the same thing to PvE is somehow such a draconian thought to game developers that they dare not consider it, much less implement it. See, for all the dramatization there is around how PvP is so much better, it's actually FAR easier of an option for designers. Think about it, if you want to create a 100-man Raid, you have to factor in the average dps this number of people can do, figure out how much health to give the boss so that it balances challenge with a reasonable time limit, make sure it can't do more damage than the tanks can take or the healers can heal, and then add any other parameters while trying to constantly keep in mind all 100 of those players.

But 100 v. 100, or 1000 v. 1000 PvP? Outside of creating the classes at the beginning of making the game and giving them an arena, absolutely nothing, AFAIK. NO extra coding has to go into making PvP outside of the specific areas that you can do it in, and in most games you don't even need that. I'm not saying PvP can't have some really thrilling outcomes, but looking at it from the other side of the coin, designers that decide to focus on PvP are typically taking the easier route, which seems to be what most PvPers harass PvEers for doing...

Oh good God, you're missing the point.

Level design may be slightly challenging (really shouldn't be to anyone with 1/10th of a brain cell and a calculator), but designing classes meets that challenge easily. The hard part comes in BALANCING classes in an environment where ability constantly exceeds expectation and intention. The very fact that PvP DEMANDS progress on part of the user means the field -always- changes, and if you haven't noticed (perhaps you haven't played many PvP games) aside from bug fixes, most hot-fix type updates are to address a specific imbalance in a class (admitantly some of these apply to PvE, but they're not truly gamebreaking then as the game is essentially singleplayer with a market - which might feel the burn, granted). Right through from RTS to FPS to MMO, PvP content demands constant developer attention just to keep it balanced; once this theme park or that raid is done and has been beta'd a few dozen times by vets, it's done, and it will stay that way forever.

That's not even the hard part though. PvE, whilst it may bring up a few customer complaints in AWFUL conditions, is vastly less dependant on solid coding and efficiency of data transfer; PvE content can be client-side on a considerable level, or at least only demand a lot of the user's best bit-rate (downstream), whereas PvP content must be server-based for security and optimum speed, but then depends entirely on the upstream bitrate of both players, the stresses on the server etc. If you follow many indie game releases (and even some larger ones), you'll know this is where launch problems lie, and this is why games like Xsyon are only beginning to tackle PvE content in a meaningful way 4 months into release, whilst the PvP content is even farther away from attention.

 

[asinann]

Today PvE(pretty much all MMOs)is "wuss" mode because the content is so dumb proof easy. I remember doing LOTRO quests and getting killed over and over again not even by elite mobs,haven't played it in awhile so I have no idea how much that content changed but the trend todays is to dumb down everything. So yeah if you want any kind of challenge PvP modes and games are the new shit. I myself enjoy some League of legends but there are games for everyone i guess.

And if you think this is hard, remember Everquest up until about 2005 had not only the losses it still has (10% of a level when you die) but a chance to lose your corpse. And you had to go out, find it while naked and get it back.

In the beginning, playing as a human was suicide at night because you couldn't see a damn thing.

They haven't made a hard MMO since WoW came out, they have on the other hand made them more accessible.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I'm really talking about games in general, though I'm trying Fallen Earth and getting the same results. I'm also getting the same backlash for choosing Skyrim over the new Modern Warfare.

Well, games in general don't all abide to any single one rule. They're too varied for that to happen.


For example, fighting games are all about playing against humans, the AI will never come even close to the level of a proper player and the way it compensates is by reading your inputs and pressing the counter-action to them, which is a super easy thing to plan against.

 

[Vrach]

So, my philosophy on PvP is "You go stroke your ego, I'll stay over here where I enjoy the game the way I want to" and for that I'm some kind of care bear, all I'm asking is...WTH?

So you can enjoy the game you want to, but others who do are just stroking their ego according to you?

Nope. It's not that the others are enjoying the game they want to. It's that they're doing so, and stroking their egos by mocking the guy who enjoys it a different way.

Really? Quoting the OP:
"I hate PvP (not just for that instance, but multiplayer/PvP as a whole) and I don't ever plan to play it because I don't have to stroke my ego like all these jockeys that try to "be cool, be a MAN!""

From where I'm standing, he's the one mocking them for enjoying the game a different way. Not quite sure what gives you the opposite idea...

the way he said that tells me hes been dealing mostly with those personalities which is why he hates pvp. personally i think PVP should stick to FPS and RTS or MMORPGs that are centered around them.

The way he says it can say whatever the bloody hell it likes, what he says quite plainly is "people who play PvP are ego stroking jockeys". And there you go saying/insinuating people who like PvP shouldn't be playing a PvE-centric MMORPGs - how about both of you give those PvP guys a wide birth and leave them to enjoy their game whatever way they like? No one is forcing you to play with those people.

 

[Sepphyre]

What you have experienced is not PvP. It is bullying, it is cowardly, and anyone who believes it is real PvP is delusional.

I like PvE, such as in Lord of the Rings Online, because you get to experience the storyline and adventure WITHOUT BEING HASSLED BY RETARDS. Just leave me to my game, alright?

Real PvP, IMO, is a balanced BG scenario. It is where you get to pit your skills against better AI, so it satisfies the combat advantage that PvP has over PvE, but there are rules to ensure that the event is fair. I loved doing things like Arathi Basin in WoW... you use tactics, communication, you win some, you lose some, and there's no reason to ragequit after the event is done.

Don't worry about what the idiots in your former guild told you about this carebear crap. You have nothing to prove to anyone. You may have a great job, wonderful wife and kids, but somehow that's not as important as impressing some anonymous internet geeks. Yeah.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

What game are you talking about? A combination shooting game and RPG?

I'm really talking about games in general, though I'm trying Fallen Earth and getting the same results. I'm also getting the same backlash for choosing Skyrim over the new Modern Warfare.

We all play how we want to play, we set our own challenges. In my opinion there is no grater challenge than facing another human player.

That's fine, to me there's no greater reward than cleaning out a camp, or making that new sweet rifle, but why am I suddenly some kind of wuss because my goals are different? That's the question.

To be fair, you called them a bunch of ego-stroking jocks and vaguely insinuated your way was better. And if the guild switches to be PVP only, then that's what the majority wants. It's unfortunate for you, though.

The reason people are such asshats in PvP is because they will always go for the easiest route to get what the want. In PvE that's no problem because it involves helping your teammates. As far as I'm concerned, PvE is the only true combat element in an MMORPG and PvP is put in to keep the arseholes away from everyone else.

PvE is for bots, it's repetitive, it's piss easy, there is no 'true combat' in doing PvE, you figure out how the AI works then you destroy it.

PvP (done well) is dynamic, requires actual proactive and higher reactive thinking, actually requires teamwork and intelligence. You need strategies, plan B's, and occasionally get inside an opponent's head.

ITT: Carebears

...so? Even if it is (and it depends on the game), does it really matter? If you enjoy PvP, then stop bitching about how other people have fun differently and go play PVP, you're only proving the OP right. PvP isn't objectively better, stop deluding yourself.

 

[Condor219]

Today PvE(pretty much all MMOs)is "wuss" mode because the content is so dumb proof easy. I remember doing LOTRO quests and getting killed over and over again not even by elite mobs,haven't played it in awhile so I have no idea how much that content changed but the trend todays is to dumb down everything. So yeah if you want any kind of challenge PvP modes and games are the new shit. I myself enjoy some League of legends but there are games for everyone i guess.

LOTRO's still balls-difficult if you're not a tank class or in a party. Part of the reason why it's the only MMO that actually got me to stick around for more than a month.

OT: PvP is really only fun en masse; solo PvP tends to be constant griefing. It also really depends on who you play with (playing with random asshats tends to suck. Whereas playing with a close clan that actually help each other tends to be fun).

And a game should thrive on its single-player experiences. Period. Otherwise it's literally designed to be a temporary cash-in on a large blind fanbase *coughCallofDutycough*

 

[cainx10a]

The real question is, why are you still sticking with your guild? I get it, you might have fond memories of them in a distant past when they used to be nice folks, but after what they are making you go through, why not leave, go play the game mode you want to play?

I only play on PvP servers, and I hate carebears because honestly they are a bunch who don't seem to be able to use their heads properly. Getting griefed? Stop sticking around, make use of your friend list see if you have trusted high level player who will help you, join a guild who will help you at a drop of a hat: my old AoC guild was like that, the leader himself would ride across dense forests and snowy mountains just to help a fellow guildie.

The reason people are such asshats in PvP is because they will always go for the easiest route to get what the want. In PvE that's no problem because it involves helping your teammates. As far as I'm concerned, PvE is the only true combat element in an MMORPG and PvP is put in to keep the arseholes away from everyone else.

PvE is for bots, it's repetitive, it's piss easy, there is no 'true combat' in doing PvE, you figure out how the AI works then you destroy it.

PvP (done well) is dynamic, requires actual proactive and higher reactive thinking, actually requires teamwork and intelligence. You need strategies, plan B's, and occasionally get inside an opponent's head.

ITT: Carebears

There's some truth in that. But then again, dungeons and raid requires teamwork and a lot of focus, as much as for PvP.

 

[ABadOmen]

See I understand this where this comes from (not acting like ièm better here, just stating my opinion). Eventually when everyone realized:

Holy Crap! Guy 2, I can Kill you and its much harder than facing off against samey AI
Guy 1! youre a genius! we should make this a thing! Its not required, but some guys found out it was harder, so harder equals manlier, then people just broke everything when they realized,

OMG! I CN KLL NOBS EESEER! ND THYR NOBS SO THY DUN NO WHT THY DUIN!

That my friend is where, That one guy who kills you with the lvl Billion sniper rifle of Angel Wings made of THE TEARS OF JESUS, comes from.

 

[krazykidd]

[When did PvE become "wuss" mode?]

It never did.

This is one of the numerous insults thrown around by immature kids when they found themselves sat alone on an empty server because nobody wanted to play with them.

Well is always easier to beat an AI than a human player no? Unless we are playing chess . Imagine if WoW endgame bosses were controlled bya human player , it would be unwinnable .

OT: playing against human players make games more challenging , but not everyone plays for challenge , a lot of people play for fun . It's the same reason i hate playing games on easy and normal , and some people always play on easy , it's a matter of taste . Plus WoW isn't known for it's awsome comunity , so shurg it off.

 

[Awexsome]

Yeah just in all genres of gaming the more "competitive" style of gamer is far more likely to be a dick than a co-op or casual style. Competitive does bring out the most challenging variety of play... but it is very true that a lot of people looking for that specific type of gameplay tend to play to win before they play to have fun and will make an online environment or community an unpleasant experience doing so.

 

[targren]

Pretty much when they started mixing Multiplayer PvP into other games instead of giving them their own little wanker-sandboxes to play in like in the old days.