I am biased an admit it. Nothing is too japanese for me. Cultures even at their worst do not bother me as much as the people who make them up.
When is a game too ''Japanese'' for you?
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Simply when I can't really play it because of the language barrier (there are japanese games that I can play through without understanding anything, I'm also not opposed to use a guide) else it can't be too japanese for me.
Umm, I can't really answer that. You can find tropes and clich?'s in everything and luckily, I've always liked those found in Jrpg's and anime, it's why I originally took to both. There really isn't any "too Japanese" for me, i'm willing to give anything a whirl.
When writers mistake mystery and just piling on endless amounts of bullshit as "depth".
It's like sometime in the late 2000's everyone in Japan just forgot how to write anything that isn't either "kawaii" or "We don't actually know how to write anything that has more 2 dimensions so we're just going to insert nonsensical existential bullshit".
It's like sometime in the late 2000's everyone in Japan just forgot how to write anything that isn't either "kawaii" or "We don't actually know how to write anything that has more 2 dimensions so we're just going to insert nonsensical existential bullshit".
As a former Japanophile, I've kind of outgrown the whole Japanese aesthetic when I started studying writing and story structure and began working more in the arts. Tons of things that I used to just let go by because of my aesthetic inclination revealed themselves to be glaring flaws in terms of storytelling and I've been turned off since. Some of those things are:
1. A focus on Caricature vs Character.
I hate the fact that Goku and Naruto are the exact same person. I hate that Vegeta and Hie from Yu Yu Hakusho are the exact same guy. They say the exact same things, have the exact same wants, and have the exact same motivations. I'm bored to death of characters who are the exact same but with slightly different coats of paint.
2. A lack of "Form Follows Function" design.
Every detail in a character's design should tell you a story about them and where they've been. Each piece should have a traceable origin who's addition to that character adds a layer and a function. All of Geralt of Rivia's designs follow this design philosophy in spades and it's one of the reasons why I love The Witcher series so much. The design is so thorough that my mind can identify the elements that compose him and real life resonance seeps through, making me feel more engaged. Every strap is made from familiar material. Every buckle has a function. I can almost smell the leather.
This, on the other hand is supposed to be a mechanic. Someone who deals with hot grease, oil, and heavy machinery, but she's dressed like a porn star in a sexy mechanic's costume. The disconnect caused from the lack of any real life resonance is staggering. Only thing left to draw me in is a predisposition to the aesthetic and like I said, I've long outgrown that.
3.Banal dialogue.
One of the rules of writing and dialogue is that if you have two characters that agree in a scene, the scene is worthless and you should scrap it. Narrative evolution is born out of character conflict, no matter how minute.
Notice how each beat of dialogue with Zoltan and Geralt goes back and forth between what one character thinks is the truth vs what the other knows is the truth and through those minute differences, story beats progress. Also, notice how each characters delivery of their dialogue teaches you things about their points of view and personalities without anyone flat out telling you what those points of view and personality traits are. That's how dialogue works in literary storytelling.
This here is the polar opposite of the example above with it's awkward grunts and hamfisted character proclamations *shudder* It's simply painful to listen to. Oh, and grunts and sighs does not dialogue make. Yuck. And scope out those gorgeous "revolutionaries" None of their outfits, not one part about any one characters outfit speaks revolutionary. The disconnect wrenches me right on out of the narrative.
So those are pretty much the things that make a game to "Japanese" to me. I just can't roll with that stuff no more.
1. A focus on Caricature vs Character.
I hate the fact that Goku and Naruto are the exact same person. I hate that Vegeta and Hie from Yu Yu Hakusho are the exact same guy. They say the exact same things, have the exact same wants, and have the exact same motivations. I'm bored to death of characters who are the exact same but with slightly different coats of paint.
2. A lack of "Form Follows Function" design.
Every detail in a character's design should tell you a story about them and where they've been. Each piece should have a traceable origin who's addition to that character adds a layer and a function. All of Geralt of Rivia's designs follow this design philosophy in spades and it's one of the reasons why I love The Witcher series so much. The design is so thorough that my mind can identify the elements that compose him and real life resonance seeps through, making me feel more engaged. Every strap is made from familiar material. Every buckle has a function. I can almost smell the leather.
This, on the other hand is supposed to be a mechanic. Someone who deals with hot grease, oil, and heavy machinery, but she's dressed like a porn star in a sexy mechanic's costume. The disconnect caused from the lack of any real life resonance is staggering. Only thing left to draw me in is a predisposition to the aesthetic and like I said, I've long outgrown that.
3.Banal dialogue.
One of the rules of writing and dialogue is that if you have two characters that agree in a scene, the scene is worthless and you should scrap it. Narrative evolution is born out of character conflict, no matter how minute.
Notice how each beat of dialogue with Zoltan and Geralt goes back and forth between what one character thinks is the truth vs what the other knows is the truth and through those minute differences, story beats progress. Also, notice how each characters delivery of their dialogue teaches you things about their points of view and personalities without anyone flat out telling you what those points of view and personality traits are. That's how dialogue works in literary storytelling.
This here is the polar opposite of the example above with it's awkward grunts and hamfisted character proclamations *shudder* It's simply painful to listen to. Oh, and grunts and sighs does not dialogue make. Yuck. And scope out those gorgeous "revolutionaries" None of their outfits, not one part about any one characters outfit speaks revolutionary. The disconnect wrenches me right on out of the narrative.
So those are pretty much the things that make a game to "Japanese" to me. I just can't roll with that stuff no more.
This runs parallel to several of my points actually. Very interesting seeing Miyazaki's take on the tomfoolery flitting on about his industry.The Almighty Aardvark said:
That's your opinion and I understand why you may not like it but on the flip side this is one of those things I appreciate about Japanese culture that we seem to be losing here.ZombieProof said:This, on the other hand is supposed to be a mechanic. Someone who deals with hot grease, oil, and heavy machinery, but she's dressed like a porn star in a sexy mechanic's costume. The disconnect caused from the lack of any real life resonance is staggering. Only thing left to draw me in is a predisposition to the aesthetic and like I said, I've long outgrown that.
Doing things simply because that's what people like or fanservice as they call it.
I find anything to do with sexuality gets slammed with the realism card too often for me to believe that's the reason most of the time.
Sexuality and realism have nothing to do with it. After saying that, I'm not quite sure you actually understand why I don't like that stuff(my post was verbose so you may have to read it again to fully absorb all of the stuff in it). It has everything to do with the lack of depth and resonance in the creative process.
The above quote by Miyazaki touched on this:
"You see, whether you can draw like this or not, being able to think up this kind of design, it depends on whether or not you can say to yourself, "Oh, yeah, girls like this exist in real life. If you don't spend time watching real people, you can't do this, because you've never seen it. Some people spend their lives interested only in themselves. Almost all Japanese animation is produced with hardly any basis taken from observing real people, you know. It's produced by humans who can't stand looking at other humans."
Storytelling with multiple levels of resonance breeds a depth and gravity in you narrative that goes beyond merely pandering to those that are fans of the aesthetic. I like narrative depth, not something that will merely pander to the aesthetic that I'm into. Fanservice has nothing to do with any part of the process that strengthens literary merit so it's worthless to me.
The above quote by Miyazaki touched on this:
"You see, whether you can draw like this or not, being able to think up this kind of design, it depends on whether or not you can say to yourself, "Oh, yeah, girls like this exist in real life. If you don't spend time watching real people, you can't do this, because you've never seen it. Some people spend their lives interested only in themselves. Almost all Japanese animation is produced with hardly any basis taken from observing real people, you know. It's produced by humans who can't stand looking at other humans."
Storytelling with multiple levels of resonance breeds a depth and gravity in you narrative that goes beyond merely pandering to those that are fans of the aesthetic. I like narrative depth, not something that will merely pander to the aesthetic that I'm into. Fanservice has nothing to do with any part of the process that strengthens literary merit so it's worthless to me.
I prefer something carefree and fun like Cidney over Mr Gritty who bangs all the bitches and witches from Witcher, also I love fanservice of course :3
The more realistic a game gets the more bored I am, that's one of the reasons why I buy more and more japanese games and less and less western ones.
The more realistic a game gets the more bored I am, that's one of the reasons why I buy more and more japanese games and less and less western ones.
Having elements that conjure up a sense of resonance doesn't read as realistic to me at all though. It provides a basis of reality that allows me to identify more with the fantastic elements. The Witcher isn't any more realistic than Final Fantasy, but the atmosphere is better because of all those subliminal signposts that call back to identifiable elements that exists in the real world. Again, you can actually "smell" the world of the witcher. I can't say that about any japanese rpg save for maybe the Souls series because they have a similar level of life resonance in their design.
Also, listening to characters that don't talk like people is a major turn off, especially if I have to deal with listening to that nonsensical gobbldy-gook for upwards of 30 hours. Yucko.
The carefree feeling comes from most of the open design and lack of blacks and rendered detail and I get that. The more blacks/rendering that are placed into visual design, the more your eye lingers on it and the more weight you associate with it. That's why I'll always prefer TF2 over something like COD aesthetically in competitive shooters. I'm there to bop about and have fun, not be all grimm-d-grimm.
Also, listening to characters that don't talk like people is a major turn off, especially if I have to deal with listening to that nonsensical gobbldy-gook for upwards of 30 hours. Yucko.
The carefree feeling comes from most of the open design and lack of blacks and rendered detail and I get that. The more blacks/rendering that are placed into visual design, the more your eye lingers on it and the more weight you associate with it. That's why I'll always prefer TF2 over something like COD aesthetically in competitive shooters. I'm there to bop about and have fun, not be all grimm-d-grimm.
I find the dashes of Japaneses a little more lumpy. Like dragons dogma. It's doesn't look or play like a JRPG, you might not guess that it is one until you start reading the item names. You have eye droppers, softener, and cleaning cloth as cure items. It makes sense if your playing a FF because they have had items like that for years and you get it, but it really sticks out where the rest of the game looks like a WRPG and you expect different names for things.
If there's one thing that makes certain Japanese games so captivating and a wonderful supplement to what I enjoy as a whole, it's that they don't strive so hard to be grounded. As someone who enjoys both The Witcher and the likes of ... say Neptunia, I've found standards to have no play in enjoying one over the other. Personally, I find they compliment one another quite nicely. God, I'd hate to one day find that my tastes have adjusted and have literally cut my interests right down; I don't see it happening though.
The thing is, I don't want that, I don't want to identify with vidya characters. Even in games with character creation, unless it allows for crazy stuff like Saints Row does, I normally just mess around a bit for laughs and then use a default character. Ecept in Mass Effect 1 where I created a female character myself, which funny enough, was almost looking like the official Fem Shep, which didn't existed back then, same hair style and color, just the face slightly different.
Also I was more about the art style and overall feeling being realistic, not the story.
Also I was more about the art style and overall feeling being realistic, not the story.
See and I prefer japanese voices over english ones in japanese games, with the rare exception of Platinum Games' games like TW101 and Bayo. On the other hand though, I also prefer english voices in western games over german ones, exceptions are the Fallout games and Deus Ex HR.ZombieProof said:
I assume you're not calling me a racist here, and if I'm correct, please tell me what you mean by lack of blacks, I don't understand.
I presume he is referring to palette, black is generally characterized as being more morbid or grim. I don't agree with his assessment though. Personally, I find I can absorb myself into the world of Atelier or Neptunia just as easily as I can Dark Souls or The Witcher, the lack of identifiable elements has no bearing on that for me and I can feel and smell the atmosphere and the world they are trying to craft just as clearly, although obviously they are very different from one another.
Jesus Musou, lack of blacks in the artwork lol. Large areas of blacks/dark colors and heavy rendering.
Whether or not you agree with that assessment Sheria, the use of heavy blacks/dark colors are tools that artists use when they want to generate weight and make the viewer's eyes linger on the piece longer to create a more heavy feeling. The amount of blacks used, or the decision to use any at all bears a lot in the decisions on how we want our viewers to feel about a piece of work we generate.
You can see what I mean when take the almost weightless feel of this
compared to this.
Perceived "noise" is a factor too. The bottom pic reads more quiet than the above as well, another subliminal tool to be aware of when understanding why a particular pic feels the way it does.
*edit*
Also, your ability to become sucked into those worlds probably hinges on the fact that you're into the anime/manga aesthetic as well as the color schemes and techniques involved in their creation, a factor I also listed in one of the posts above. Aesthetic predisposition has a LOT to do with whether or not you can "get into" something.
*edit*
Oh, and I scoped out the use of blacks in Neptunia. Hopefully you can see by the examples above that this was NOT what I was talking about lol
.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/660?cb=20130717003319)
Whether or not you agree with that assessment Sheria, the use of heavy blacks/dark colors are tools that artists use when they want to generate weight and make the viewer's eyes linger on the piece longer to create a more heavy feeling. The amount of blacks used, or the decision to use any at all bears a lot in the decisions on how we want our viewers to feel about a piece of work we generate.
You can see what I mean when take the almost weightless feel of this
compared to this.
Perceived "noise" is a factor too. The bottom pic reads more quiet than the above as well, another subliminal tool to be aware of when understanding why a particular pic feels the way it does.
*edit*
Also, your ability to become sucked into those worlds probably hinges on the fact that you're into the anime/manga aesthetic as well as the color schemes and techniques involved in their creation, a factor I also listed in one of the posts above. Aesthetic predisposition has a LOT to do with whether or not you can "get into" something.
*edit*
Oh, and I scoped out the use of blacks in Neptunia. Hopefully you can see by the examples above that this was NOT what I was talking about lol
Oh of course, a lot hinges on you being into it in the first place. I know all to well that when you are not, you naturally just don't even try. Bear in mind though, I was not simply referring to "getting into" something, I was referring to the level of absorption & immersion into the world that has been crafted.ZombieProof said:
Looking at the pictures, I agree with you about the feeling of weight that comes across, but that wasn't really what I was picking on because I don't find it a necessity.