Where's All The Character-Design Protesters For This One?

[RJ 17]

As I'm sure some of you probably recall, there was a big hub-bub over the character design choices for

Spoiler: a certain mage-class in a little game call Dragon's Crown.

While the character design backlash wasn't relegated solely to that curvaceous caster, she was at the heart of the controversy. Jim Sterling did a couple videos around the topic, the internet was in turmoil, there were dogs and cats living together...MASS HYSTERIA!

And yet when we see something like this

Spoiler: from The Witch and The Hundred Knight

We're supposed to just shrug it off and say "Oh well that's for a JRPG so it's alright. That's just how it is over there." She's clearly made to be sexually attractive and is wearing next to nothing and yet there's not been a huge explosion of outrage.

So I ask you denizens of the interwebs...what gives? Why is it fine for one culture to use sexy character designs but not another? And here's the real curve-ball. The Dead or Alive franchise is brought to us by Japan...so why to people roll their eyes at the mention of it due to the fact that it uses raw sex appeal with most of its character design? Personally I like the DoA games because of the fight mechanics, yet a lot of people seem to look down on it as just being a perverted fantasy. What makes a game like The Witch and The Hundred Night perfectly alright to get away with it while DoA can't? For that matter, what about the Disgaea franchise which features a half-naked lolicon demon? Sure, it says that Etna's 10K years old, but that doesn't change the fact that she's got the body of a 12 year old and is pretty much naked.

Edit
To clarify: this isn't supposed to be specifically "Why do JRPGs get away with this and WRPGs don't" discussion. Dragon's Crown, itself, is Japanese in origin. This is more a question of "where's the consistency?" Why raise an uproar about the sorceress from Dragon's Crown and not Lulu from FFX (just as another example)?

 

[Erttheking]

Eh, trying to find a stable pattern in how the internet reacts to fiction is like trying to predict where lightning will strike, there's no pattern, it's just a random outburst. I think a lot of people only ever got into the discussion on Dragon's Crown because someone else had already started the conversation for them, it was under the spotlight and people decided to give their thoughts while they had the chance. I don't even know who that character is. Yes I think her design is kinda stupid, like I thought that sorceress was kinda stupid, but I'm not THAT bothered by it to run out and start a discussion based around it. I only bothered giving my thoughts on Dragon's Crown because it was already brought up.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I guess the emphasis on 'giant rocking tits' spurred the controversy with Dragon's Crown.

That second pic is just weirdly disproportionate on every level. Two hundred pound hair, a hat the size of a diner table, toothpick arms, and a plank for a waist. It's overall too wierd for any real sex appeal to shine through.

 

[dyre]

I think even the internet, in all its terrible glory, does not contain enough rage to create a shitstorm for every oversexualized, stupidly designed character. Personally I'm having trouble summoning the emotion to care about any of these characters (outrage is only fun when you turn most of your brain off), but if I had to guess, people raised hell over the Dragon's Crown sorceress as a poster example for the general problem in the industry, not because they were specifically angry about Dragon's Crown.

We're supposed to just shrug it off and say "Oh well that's for a JRPG so it's alright. That's just how it is over there."

Who told you you had to think that? I wasn't aware there was an Internet Thought Control Committee that dictated these things. Oh dear, I hope they don't send the secret police to my home!

 

[synobal]

Looks like an anime character with a couple of what "dude bros" would call bolt ons. IE totally unnatural breasts. I don't care myself both character designs are absurd but for different reasons. I don't think either is very good honestly but I dislike the anime style anyways.

Internet outrage is a very weird thing and you can't really predict it.

 

[Zhukov]

a) Because how many people have heard of "Witch and the Hundred Knight"?

b) Because how many people are remotely surprised to see a character design like that in an anime-style JRPG? It'd be like opening a porn magazine and exclaiming, "My God, that woman isn't wearing any clothes!"

c) Dragon's Crown was made by a Japanese company as well, was it not? Your suggestion that that the Japanese get off the hook "because that's how it goes over there" makes little sense to me.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

There're women with mammoth tits every 2 games, everybody one day just decided to gang up on Dragon's Crown, because that particular pair of tits was larger than usual. George Kamitani didn't help himself by making a stupid joke about one reviewer's sexuality, which only provided more clicking for the whole affair.

Personally I don't give a fuck. And nobody used to. I've been playing Vanillaware Ltd. games for years. Queen Odette had stonking great tits in Odin Sphere. Opalneria Rain had industrial-sized funbags in Grim Grimoire. Can you guess how these two characters are related? They're necromancers. And so is the sorceress, judging from the one gameplay clip.

While I know big breasts are a staple of Japanese animation, Vanillaware Ltd. games have made it a tradition to have a necromancer character in every game, to make it female, to have gigantic breasts. Maybe it has something to do with fertility, like the gods of old, giving these resurrected enormous bits. I don't know. But if anybody's offended by this all they have to do is play one more game or watch one more show and they'll realize this is nothing new.

 

[EternallyBored]

Considering this is the first time I've even heard of this game until now, that might have something to do with it.

It could also be that Vanillaware actually has somewhat of a cult following in the West, so gamers here in North America and Europe pay more attention to their games, or the game was just more known in general.

Could also be that Dragon's Crown was aping Western art styles much more directly, so it drew in a crowd that normally wouldn't pay attention to Japanese games like this.

Yet another reason could be that the Sorceress is seen as much more blatantly sexualized, and we haven't seen this new witch character shoving a skeleton between her breasts and a magic staff up her ass yet.

Or it might also be spurred on by the art style of the rest of the game, with every female (except the elf) in Dragons crown being a pin up who poses for the camera with heaving breasts, and a cursor mechanic that lets you actually grope said female NPCS, in which case, the Sorceress is just the poster woman for a larger set of complaints.

Further still, it could just be that this character doesn't have a spark to provoke reaction yet, the Sorceress didn't draw a lot of fire until the Polygon article came out, and that other writer (was it Kotaku? I totally forget who it even was at this point) got into a throwdown with the Dragon's Crown art lead, that resulted in hairy muscle dwarves, gay jokes, and ultimately an apology as both of them came to an agreement to agree to disagree.

So yeah, pick one of the above, hell, pick two or three, if you're feeling adventurous, choose all of the above.

The internet is hardly completely consistent, and while DOA certainly draws more criticism, there is still a lot of criticism out there for designs like Etna's, although it tends to spark more outrage over her visual age, than her gender, so you might want to stick around the crowd that calls JRPG players pedophiles, if you want to see the criticism surrounding characters like her. Also, last I checked, Disgaea doesn't really get advertisements, while DOA has its infamous jiggle physics commercial, and people like the Jimquisition use DOA as examples all the time, so DOA has a level of exposure that is orders of magnitude greater than the number of people that even know what what the hell Disgaea is, much less played enough of it to start a controversy over it. It also doesn't help that 99% percent of Disgaea is sprite based, so the only time you actually see this sexualization is through still images, and story dialogue, it's a lot harder to turn that into an easily presentable example of sexualization.

 

[Ratty]

Objectification of women in fantasy artwork is a tradition that has existed in North America and elsewhere for at least half a century. Just go back and look at the influential works of Frazetta, Vallejo and others. You'll see some beautiful and inspired artwork, but also a lot of half-naked women in suggestive poses.

We balk at it today because fantasy has become more mainstream. Many people, including millions of women, have grown up with Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy and are now fans of the genre. Whereas for most of its history it was largely[footnote]Though by no means only. Women wrote a lot of Dungeons & Dragons licensed novels back in the day for example.[/footnote] a "boys club", and much of the traditional fantasy material is still created by men to pander to men. Like romance novels[footnote]Including hugely popular fantasy novels in the "urban fantasy" sub-genre.[/footnote] are mostly written by women to pander to women.

If you want to "fix" the depiction of women in traditional fantasy you need more female creators working in the genre to repeatedly demonstrate that attracting the female audience is more profitable than exploiting sex appeal. Which is something that is up to the creative women in Japan to do when it comes to Japanese games and other media, not us. In the end you'll never completely get these kinds of depictions to go away because even though it may limit the audience, sex sells and it sells reliably.

 

[RJ 17]

a) Because how many people have heard of "Witch and the Hundred Knight"?

Apparently enough for the Escapist to warrant a review of it.

b) Because how many people are remotely surprised to see a character design like that in an anime-style JRPG? It'd be like opening a porn magazine and exclaiming, "My God, that woman isn't wearing any clothes!"

That certainly didn't stop people from being "offended" by the sorceress.

c) Dragon's Crown was made by a Japanese company as well, was it not? Your suggestion that that the Japanese get off the hook "because that's how it goes over there" makes little sense to me.

Indeed it was made by a Japanese company, but I'm afraid you slightly missed my point (due to my wording, most likely). It wasn't JRPGs vs WRPGs specifically, it's more a general question of "Why isn't there any consistency here?" Which is why I brought up DoA as well. People were upset over the sorceress' assets or Bayonetta's amazingly large...hair. Yet they see stuff like this witch, Etna from Disgaea, or Lulu and Rikku from FFX and don't seem bothered at all.

 

[Ratty]

Indeed it was made by a Japanese company, but I'm afraid you slightly missed my point (due to my wording, most likely). It wasn't JRPGs vs WRPGs specifically, it's more a general question of "Why isn't there any consistency here?" Which is why I brought up DoA as well. People were upset over the sorceress' assets or Bayonetta's amazingly large...hair. Yet they see stuff like this witch, Etna from Disgaea, or Lulu and Rikku from FFX and don't seem bothered at all.

Because people like to jump on "righteous" indignation bandwagons. Being highly offended (or highly offended that someone else is offended) is one of the internet's favorite passtimes.

 

[Zhukov]

a) Because how many people have heard of "Witch and the Hundred Knight"?

Apparently enough for the Escapist to warrant a review of it.

It's slow season. They're reviewing anything that stands still long enough,

I think I can safely say it's not a high profile game.

b) Because how many people are remotely surprised to see a character design like that in an anime-style JRPG? It'd be like opening a porn magazine and exclaiming, "My God, that woman isn't wearing any clothes!"

That certainly didn't stop people from being "offended" by the sorceress.

c) Dragon's Crown was made by a Japanese company as well, was it not? Your suggestion that that the Japanese get off the hook "because that's how it goes over there" makes little sense to me.

Indeed it was made by a Japanese company, but I'm afraid you slightly missed my point (due to my wording, most likely). It wasn't JRPGs vs WRPGs specifically, it's more a general question of "Why isn't there any consistency here?" Which is why I brought up DoA as well. People were upset over the sorceress' assets or Bayonetta's amazingly large...hair. Yet they see stuff like this witch, Etna from Disgaea, or Lulu and Rikku from FFX and don't seem bothered at all.

Okay. You're kinda grouping the entire gaming audience under "people" there. That's not how it works.

Sometimes, hell, most of the time, the controversy snowball just never gets rolling. It's not as if we get a big thing every time someone looks at a chainmail bikini or whatever and thinks, "Huh, that's a bit stupid." Most of the time people either don't care or, if they are put off by it, just roll their eyes and/or avoid the game in response rather than kicking up a stink.

If that one guy from Kotaku or wherever it was hadn't written that one article, I doubt the whole Dragon's Crown would thing would have happened. As it was, he did, people commented on it, other people wrote articles about it and before you know it every ************ with a keyboard is desperately jostling to sticking their oar in.

Also, it's worth remembering that many people weren't offended at all. As I remember, quite a few were in fact aggressive unoffended.

 

[RJ 17]

Okay. You're kinda grouping the entire gaming audience under "people" there. That's not how it works.

And here I thought I was using the term "people" as a general term for...people. I didn't claim that everyone was upset (which is probably a better word to be using in this case than "offended") by it, I said that people were. Because as I recall, some "people" were indeed upset over it.

Sometimes, hell, most of the time, the controversy snowball just never gets rolling. It's not as if we get a big thing every time someone looks at a chainmail bikini or whatever and thinks, "Huh, that's a bit stupid." Most of the time people either don't care or, if they are put off by it, just roll their eyes and/or avoid the game in response rather than kicking up a stink.

If that one guy from Kotaku or wherever it was hadn't written that one article, I doubt the whole Dragon's Crown would thing would have happened. As it was, he did, people commented on it, other people wrote articles about it and before you know it every ************ with a keyboard is desperately jostling to sticking their oar in.

Now this is an answer more along the lines of what I was looking for and what the greater theme behind this topic was meant to touch upon: just what is it that launches an internet controversy? As you mentioned, in the case of Dragon's Crown it was some guy on Kotaku writing an article.

What I'm getting at is that there isn't a solid answer that I'm looking for here, this topic is mainly to strike up a discussion on the nature of internet controversies with the focus example being the whole character design shtick.

 

[Kopikatsu]

To quote myself...

Because it's NIS. All of their character designs are like that.

I mean, come on. Laharl has even less clothes than Etna does, and she barely wears anything at all.

And yet, I have never heard a single person complain about NIS' character designs. NOT ONE.

 

[Scarim Coral]

I guessing it's because that design lack the sex appeal compared to the Sorceress.

Yes the design is still ridiculous but still not offensive to some people per say.

I mean sure that character got stupid size hat and hair and the usual too much exposal skin but it look like a kid to me (unless the perv is into lolicon). Finally the breast (the major thing that can ticked people off) is somewhat reasonable especially when compared to the Sorceress.

 

[Zhukov]

...and what the greater theme behind this topic was meant to touch upon: just what is it that launches an internet controversy?

I suspect it comes down to whether or not it gets taken up by "official" outlets.

Just say I was to go right now and write a forum thread or Reddit post or blog or whatever in which I vehemently decry the insubstantial wardrobe or some pixelated waif from a high profile game.

Mostly likely result is that a couple dozen people comment and bicker about it for a bit, get viewed maybe a couple hundred times before sinking into the oblivion of the web. Maybe if I manage to say something particularly clever or flamebait-y then it's be a few hundred people bickering and five thousand views. Either way, when all is said and done, nobody will give a shit. I'm just one clueless dork shouting his thoughts to the sky in a whole crowd of clueless dorks shout their thoughts to the sky. Most I can hope for is to contribute to the general haze of discussion and awareness. (Like the one that currently exists regarding females in media, to which the discussion of consistently skimpily clothed females in games is a sort of sub-debate.)

However, if a professional does it in an article, well, then it suddenly carries a bit of weight. Even if it's on something like Kotaku (which I do not personally read but I gather that it is regarded by many as being a bit trashy and clickbait-y). Likewise if it's tweeted by blogged by a person of note with a large following.

That's enough to turn it from Internet Argument #733649753576 to A Story. Maybe even The Story. Once it reaches that stage it begets something of a snowball effect with everyone rushing to have their say. This is what people often smugly and incorrectly refer to as "bandwagoning". Really it's just people talking about the story of the day as people are wont to do (kinda like how there's a lot of people talking about that plane that went missing). If that story is based on a subjective view of something then chances are the discussion will be opinionated.

And thus an internet controversy is born.

That's how I think it works, anyway.

 

[tangoprime]

The answer to the OP's question clearly has to do with how many people on Tumblr know of the existence of "The Witch and the Hundred Night." Giant shaking breasts may have something to do with it as well.

 

[Redd the Sock]

I joked a lot a couple of years back when a parental group was complaining about introducing gay characters in comics: you're only about 20 years late.

Fact is most interest groups have little knowledge about what they're complaining about, both in terms of history and current status. They just jump on something they see at the moment, and others join the bandwagon. This get magnified online as even a lot of even devoted fans don't go out of their way to see what else is out there beyond the immediate marketing, let alone people more interested in complaining about trends than examining them. This actually goes both ways as raunchy things get overlooked, but so to do characters less likely to piss people off.

Knowing this of course, some of us don't try and draw attention to anything slipping under the radar. Granted the controversy for Dragon's Crown was the best marketing it had, but it doesn't feel worth the trouble.