White Knight Chronicles and RPG Combat Systems

[HyenaThePirate]

Over the past few years I've found myself less and less excited about RPGs, specifically JRPGs.
I used to love them for their style and story and gameplay, but with each new game, I seem to be losing interesting in the entire genre as they remove elements that I found comforting and enjoyable.

First was removing my ability to name the characters after myself and my friends. Yeah, it sounds Corny, but it sure made me happier to be running around as Hyena in Final Fantasy VII, trying to stop "Chad" (my best friend at the time) from destroying the world after "Kimmy" (my girlfriend at the time) died. Suddenly the game was more exciting with the idea of me being the main character and the game reinforcing that. Most games now don't allow this, considering they've invested in HOURS of voice over work and dubbing.

Then someone started this nonsense of creating epic 80 hour games by including 25+ hours of video and cutscenes. Seriously, just tell the story in game... the whole point of an RPG is to allow ME to experience the story, not watch it. If all you wanted was to tell your story, you should have just made a movie and left it at that.

But I digress, let me to the point... the combat systems. Honestly, I hated the combat system in Final Fantasy XII, and if Final Fantasy XIII has a similar "active battle/gambits" system I'm going to pass on it. I saw a preview of White Knight Chronicles, and I was excited about this game until I got a GOOD look at the combat system. To be honest, I am NOT liking it. I tend to prefer to micro-manage my parties in RPGS, and having to juggle all of those actions in real time while one of my party members wastes potions on himself every time he breaks a nail annoys me to no end.

Does anyone else feel this way? Do you prefer the old traditional turn-based methods to the new 'super awesome real time active combat action live!" systems that the market has been going to?

 

[Krakyn]

I loathed FFXII for it's battle system. I was so happy that a new FF was out that I just went out, paid the $56 dollars for it, and came back utterly disappointed. I mean...I got good at using the system after awhile of practice, but it wasn't fun. I didn't WANT to play it. I had no control, and that's not what I look for in an RPG. It's the whole reason I avoid the RTS genre.

 

[IamQ]

Turn based works in pokemon and nothing else.

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

I loathed FFXII for it's battle system. I was so happy that a new FF was out that I just went out, paid the $56 dollars for it, and came back utterly disappointed. I mean...I got good at using the system after awhile of practice, but it wasn't fun. I didn't WANT to play it. I had no control, and that's not what I look for in an RPG. It's the whole reason I avoid the RTS genre.

I don't understand why people hate FF XII's system. Just turn off the gambits and voila, you have the classic system back, and all the control you want.

 

[Krakyn]

I loathed FFXII for it's battle system. I was so happy that a new FF was out that I just went out, paid the $56 dollars for it, and came back utterly disappointed. I mean...I got good at using the system after awhile of practice, but it wasn't fun. I didn't WANT to play it. I had no control, and that's not what I look for in an RPG. It's the whole reason I avoid the RTS genre.

I don't understand why people hate FF XII's system. Just turn off the gambits and voila, you have the classic system back, and all the control you want.

It's been a long time since I played, but let me try to craft a response to that. Didn't you also have to be within a certain distance from your allies to do stuff like heal and use potions, or be a certain distance from the enemy to even attack? Then you couldn't use spells that affected all the enemies in an area because your people were standing there too. Then, if I remember correctly, there was a delay on actions like potion using, healing, and magic casting, so even if the person was within range or out of the way of an attack, there's no way to know if they will be by the time it resolves.

It was just annoying. If I wanted to buy a Final Fantasy game that required spatial organization, I would've bought Tactics because they did it much, much better there.

 

[LaughingTarget]

You can't just turn off the gambits, it still runs in real time and trying to manage a party in real time is a pain in the kiester.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

I loathed FFXII for it's battle system. I was so happy that a new FF was out that I just went out, paid the $56 dollars for it, and came back utterly disappointed. I mean...I got good at using the system after awhile of practice, but it wasn't fun. I didn't WANT to play it. I had no control, and that's not what I look for in an RPG. It's the whole reason I avoid the RTS genre.

I don't understand why people hate FF XII's system. Just turn off the gambits and voila, you have the classic system back, and all the control you want.

I didn't REALLY hate Gambit's myself, what I hated was the following...

- How they treated a user friendly (in my opinion) AI management system into an ability system (you should have had ALL GAMBIT OPTIONS available from the get go).
- How Technicks were the most useless things imaginable.
- How there was very little overall strategy involved in the battles
- How Limit Breaks were basically Super Spells with a seemingly random Combo System added in.

 

[midpipps]

This is why I am in love with most atlus games and most games that NISA brings in most are back to basics with turn based or turn based style of system with you controlling the whole party. Something like Ar Tonelico where it does have a sort of time system with blocking being a button press during the opponents turn just made me fall in love with it. Persona is another system that I really loved.

I agree XII's system just did not give you enough control over your party and I pray XIII goes back to a more turn based system I will try demo or rental before I buy. I like being able to use all my spells and figuring out strategies for the next round. Also where I felt Crisis Core failed was the only good use for my fire/ice/whatever spells was to equip them to a weapon for the effect. Using them as an actual spell just never worked out as well as i hoped, I would either get hit while casting or it would miss the enemy because the enemy moved while I was casting.

Turn based just works it can be added to with some neat ideas(like ar tonelico 2's blocking system) but please do not take it away. I also agree on the renaming it is funny going back and playing my old saved game of VII and seeing who I named all my characters.

 

[squid5580]

Where as I do enjoy a good TBRPG I also like a non TBRPG. I enjoyed FF12 for the most part (except for the 2 ridiculous gazillion freakin HP bosses that took forever to beat) and the story didn't quite do it for me. I do see the validity of evolving the genre though. Ijust don't see how you can take a TBRPG and truly evolve it. Sure you can add a gimmick (timed button presses for added oomph or the ATB) but even they become stale when you are playing the 100th game that uses a similar system.

I used to swear by TBRPGs. If it wasn't an rpg it wasn't in my collection (slight exaggeration since I did have other games of other genres). Then one day it happened. Some wire in my brain became lose or got crossed or something and I just felt like I was playing the same games with a different story. I still enjoy a good TBRPG but I just don't have the passion for them I used to. And want to see more games take it to the next level like FF12 did.

Off topic kinda is there a release date for White Knight yet? It seems like forever since I was watching some Japanese gameplay of it.

 

[HentMas]

i got my ff viii running in my psp, i have fun playing it, the combat i have always thought was a little stupid, only getting the powers when low in life or not even using anything else than GF´s would also work, killing monsters with magic "drawn" from those same monsters, i dont know, it kind of dumb, but in the end i love the story, naming my character and all the GF´s is kind of cool, but, you have to look into what you want about a game, i have never seen a game that combines combat, story and settings all toguether in a great way.

just buy what you know you are getting, and what you know you´ll like

 

[HyenaThePirate]

Off topic kinda is there a release date for White Knight yet? It seems like forever since I was watching some Japanese gameplay of it.

Last I "heard", it SHOULD be out sometime before the end of summer. In the least very soon.

I loathed FFXII for it's battle system. I was so happy that a new FF was out that I just went out, paid the $56 dollars for it, and came back utterly disappointed. I mean...I got good at using the system after awhile of practice, but it wasn't fun. I didn't WANT to play it. I had no control, and that's not what I look for in an RPG. It's the whole reason I avoid the RTS genre.

This is exactly how I felt. It's why I just wasn't a big fan of the Star Ocean series... I'm a micro-manager in my RPG's and honestly if I wanted "fast paced action" I'd go play some sort of button-mashing action title like God of War or Fable, which are not bad, just not something I want in my RPG's. I look at Rpg's and Jrpg's as sort of modern updates to Chess mixed with a Good book. The epic scope of the story is what keeps me going, but during the combat I like taking a bit of time to think, strategize, and implement my plans, assigning each attack and task to each party member. While the Gambits system worked well for what it does, I simply found myself most of the time concentrating solely on one single character I was controlling and what he was doing and found myself often annoyed that one of my party members had done something when I would have preferred they do something else. Essentially it felt like a "big boy's" version of Kingdom Hearts, except instead of goofy and Donald, you get Fran and Balthier.

This is why I am in love with most atlus games and most games that NISA brings in most are back to basics with turn based or turn based style of system with you controlling the whole party. Something like Ar Tonelico where it does have a sort of time system with blocking being a button press during the opponents turn just made me fall in love with it. Persona is another system that I really loved.

I agree XII's system just did not give you enough control over your party and I pray XIII goes back to a more turn based system I will try demo or rental before I buy. I like being able to use all my spells and figuring out strategies for the next round. Also where I felt Crisis Core failed was the only good use for my fire/ice/whatever spells was to equip them to a weapon for the effect. Using them as an actual spell just never worked out as well as i hoped, I would either get hit while casting or it would miss the enemy because the enemy moved while I was casting.

Turn based just works it can be added to with some neat ideas(like ar tonelico 2's blocking system) but please do not take it away. I also agree on the renaming it is funny going back and playing my old saved game of VII and seeing who I named all my characters.

Great example. Atlus has been turning out GREAT rpg's that may not be as epic in scale as your typical Final Fantasy epic, but hit the spot nicely, sometimes better. Final Fantasy is like your big budget film version of a book, and Atlus can tend to be the Sci Fi channel original movie of the week, but sometimes those sci fi channel straight to cable movies are better than the theatrical releases, like in the Omega Man vs. I am Legend.

Another good example is Valkyria Chronicles. Sure it's a bit of a RTS/RPG/FPS hybrid, but it still gave me enough control to plan out my moves and implement them. Eternal Sonata had an excellent combat system variation that was deep and innovative and in my opinion was 10 times better than the FFXII system.

Maybe most new gamers want their games more fast paced and adrenaline pumping with hundreds of things flying around on-screen at any given moment but it's just not my cup of tea.

i got my ff viii running in my psp, i have fun playing it, the combat i have always thought was a little stupid, only getting the powers when low in life or not even using anything else than GF´s would also work, killing monsters with magic "drawn" from those same monsters, i dont know, it kind of dumb, but in the end i love the story, naming my character and all the GF´s is kind of cool, but, you have to look into what you want about a game, i have never seen a game that combines combat, story and settings all toguether in a great way.

just buy what you know you are getting, and what you know you´ll like

They released FF VIII on the PSP?? I thought it was only VII?

 

[mjhhiv]

Turn based works in pokemon and nothing else.

This is... not true. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Pandazooka]

Over the past few years I've found myself Does anyone else feel this way? Do you prefer the old traditional turn-based methods to the new 'super awesome real time active combat action live!" systems that the market has been going to?

I don't. I like having battles in real-time, or a hybrid of both (such as the Grandia series).

I also don't like controlling a full party in a battle. I like controlling just that one dude I highlighted, and be able to give out commands or requests to the other party members at whim.

Of course, a system like that could be completely ruined if the AI controlling the party members is dull. I've had several bad experiences where the AI would just keep fighting, oblivious of my death and that he's low on health (I had never added Balmung back into my party ever since that fiasco in dotHack).

And that's why I love FF12's "Gambits". It allowed me to create a procedure for what I want the AI to do.

 

[-Seraph-]

And congratulations YOU just decided what my next essay would be.

FFXII Combat System, Why gambits are the step we should be taking and People are stupid bastards.

This isn't meant to flame you but I'm seriously going RIGHT NOW to write up a Long, Long, LONG essay educating you all.

EDIt: RIGHT AFTER I FINISH FUSING 3 MADYNE SPELLS and DIE FOR ME! ONTO A MOT. FUCK YOU PERSONA 3 AND YOUR BULLSHIT FUSION SYSTEM!

I look forward to reading this as I still fail to see why so many people hated it.

 

[Eiseman]

Of course, a system like that could be completely ruined if the AI controlling the party members is dull. I've had several bad experiences where the AI would just keep fighting, oblivious of my death and that he's low on health (I had never added Balmung back into my party ever since that fiasco in dotHack).

Yeah, things like that happen [http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/a597d25f05e971e1a821296bf6839847.png] to some people.

 

[HyenaThePirate]

And congratulations YOU just decided what my next essay would be.

FFXII Combat System, Why gambits are the step we should be taking and People are stupid bastards.

This isn't meant to flame you but I'm seriously going RIGHT NOW to write up a Long, Long, LONG essay educating you all.

EDIt: RIGHT AFTER I FINISH FUSING 3 MADYNE SPELLS and DIE FOR ME! ONTO A MOT. FUCK YOU PERSONA 3 AND YOUR BULLSHIT FUSION SYSTEM!

Hopefully in the course of that, you'll stumbleupon the novel idea that gamers are different, people prefer different things in their games, and sometimes leaving a successful system alone instead of consistently trying to "tweak" it to make appealing to a more mainstream audience that increasingly prefers things to be as loud, flashy, and fast as possible, even if it sacrifices the very thing that popularized the genre to begin with.
And then we see years later when someone creates something with a 'Throwback nod' to "classic gaming" such as Shadow Conflict or Odin sphere, people rave all about it.
I'm sure there is a place for all the new active combat systems out there in RPG gaming, but it doesn't mean I or others have to like it and 'live' with it, and it doesnt make it "better gaming". Halo 2 and Call of Duty 4 are two different games in the same genre, but two different experiences. It doesnt mean I have to like the newer game's system just because it's the 'latest' thing. Some people like the Real Time/Action-oriented systems of newer RPG's which seems to be the direction the industry is taking, some of us don't. It certainly doesnt make us stupid, and certainly there is room in the gaming industry for both.

Over the past few years I've found myself Does anyone else feel this way? Do you prefer the old traditional turn-based methods to the new 'super awesome real time active combat action live!" systems that the market has been going to?

I don't. I like having battles in real-time, or a hybrid of both (such as the Grandia series).

And that's why I love FF12's "Gambits". It allowed me to create a procedure for what I want the AI to do.

Thats what squads are for in squad-based shooters. I don't need it in my RPG's. But that's ok, it's two different preferences you and I have... you want to play as one person with a string of NPC's following you around acting like your own personal little entourage, I prefer to have companions that sit and wait for commands before taking action, when I'm ready for them to take action. That way, my successes (and failures) are completely my own, not the result of an AI partner doing something tactically foolish and giving the enemy A.I. the chance to capitalize on it and own me 6 ways to sunday.

I think what it comes down to me for me is games with active combat systems and AI partners that do what they want as long as it fits within some 'established guideline' you've tried to pigeon-hole them into amounts to an MMO. It feels like an MMO except the people in my party arent real. And quite frankly, if I wanted to play an MMO, i'd go play an MMO.
But when I want to play alone, I dont want "faux-friends" riding shotgun on my adventures..

 

[HyenaThePirate]

I just got back from gamestop and apparently White Knight has been pushed back to Early 2010...

 

[yeah_so_no]

I liked the old turn-based systems. I liked them a lot, truth be told. I liked having the time to think and plan out what I wanted to do. The real time systems, well...if I wanted a fighting game, I'd be playing one of those, and active time battle feels like a fighting game. They're fun, yes, but it's dumbed-down button mashing in some cases.

I actually liked FF12's gambit system. I liked the control and how I could set characters to heal, since, in active time, I forget about that (something I don't forget in turn-based).

As for FF13--I actually have played the demo, and I hated the battle system. But everything I hated I've heard they are going to tweak, so we'll see. In the demo, you could only control one character--the others were AI--but I've heard that won't be the case in the real game and you can control everyone, so we'll see.

I'm playing Eternal Sonata now, and I like how it hand-holds you into the battle system and makes it more complex as you go--you start out with infinite planning time and your action time stops decreasing when you stop moving, but as your team levels up at the end of chapters, you get more limits and more abilities.

 

[Pendragon9]

White Knight was made by the people who made Dark Cloud. So play those games first and see if you like them.