Why all the sudden sexism/feminism?

[yeti585]

It's not sexist by its own definition though, which is the one he asked us to use. Not that I think it's necessarily a good idea. Regardless, by what definition of yours is it sexist? I'd say it's simply recognizing the history of the use of the word and how things have been.

I'd say that my definition is any discrimination based on sex. By saying that it especially applies to discrimination against women it discriminates against men. But that is just my view

But they could be in fact. They could be conforming to certain traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. At least the over sexualized characters.

The sexualization of the characters would not be the sexist part, it'd be how it is done that is the sexist part. But I see what you are saying.

Could you please clarify this? You are saying feminism is sexist by that definition? It wouldn't be, btw. Advocating for one issue does not mean not being able to advocate for others. It's not discriminatory to have a movement to stop discrimination against those most discriminated against.

I see it as the same issue.

Nor have I played a tomb raider game. but I have noticed that Tomb Raider and Hitman seem to be the two driving games. Anyone like to explain why these (are/are not) sexist?

I'm guessing they are just two games that randomly set off a trigger. But one look at the old Lara Croft will show you why people wouldn't like it.

 

[TehCookie]

Flavor of the month, it'll change when people think of something new. Though this topic usually comes back after a while. Just like the games are art topics a while back.

On the actual topic, I find it unfair games mostly cater to men. Games should try to be equal by either having more manservice or less fanservice. Also is annoys me when guys think steroidbeasts are manservice or when others hate JRPGs pretty boys but don't understand why other girls hate strippers.

 

[CODE-D]

Im quite tired of sexuality hot topic. I mean sexuality exists and marketing knows this and uses it. Dont like how creator or entertainment portrays a sex? try my step by step program-

1. not care
2. get over it
3. pick up a different medium that you feel portrays sex "the right way"
4. know that there is no right way
5. know to not take marketing seriously and let the product stand on its own merit
6. dont make a thread forum about the objectification of peoples in mediums especially videogames especially that of females in games for they are objects made of data and pixels. here at the escapist its been done....
7.If you still cant get over it, try making your own thing or ignore my number 6 and do what everyone else does.....go to the internet and complain.
8. and finally know that internet complaints accomplish nothing (especially in forums) most of the time. like 99.999999% and 100% against a successful product.

while I can get that this whole "sexism" thing is running rampant but to simply say "problem? there's no problem!" is completly missing the point
because like it or not there are "probelms" (if you want to call them that)

I wasnt saying there wasnt a problem(which i dont really), I was saying if you think theres a problem deal with it.

 

[Vault101]

I wasnt saying there wasnt a problem(which i dont really), I was saying if you think theres a problem deal with it.

on one hand that kind of sounds like "don't complain" and if people don't complain thease issues are not heard

on the other not everyone has the same "standards" as me in regards to sexism...I was not bothered by the Tomb rader trailer at all...some people were, so I guess its best for people to remember thats there 10 opinions for every sexism issue

and that overreacting isnt the best way...

 

[aba1]

I think a lot of people forget that a fictional character cannot be sexist to people outside the story itself. A character can only be sexist if he treats others in the story different based on sex and even then that is just part of the character, characters are allowed to be flawed it is part of what drives the story. Also a story is fictional so nobody real. So it really can't address anybody unless it breaks the forth wall.

The second we start restricting the story's we can tell is the second art and freedom of expression is dead.

If people don't care for the characters and story that is fine they don't have to enjoy it but don't say a story is wrong because it is not restricted to your guidelines.

 

[Ecreag91]

Flavor of the month, it'll change when people think of something new. Though this topic usually comes back after a while. Just like the games are art topics a while back.

On the actual topic, I find it unfair games mostly cater to men. Games should try to be equal by either having more manservice or less fanservice. Also is annoys me when guys think steroidbeasts are manservice or when others hate JRPGs pretty boys but don't understand why other girls hate strippers.

I'll stir this question up a tad. In all honesty if I was a company in an industry where the market is dominated by men (FPS's mostly but hence why we have millions of those) then the statistics get skewed the perspective of the game companies seems to be "Is our game a military FPS? No? Do we have sex appeal? Add more boobs men like guns and boobs and we dont got any guns!". That is a sexist attitude toward men at the expense of female characters though. The sexism toward women comes from the choice to ignore that small (but growing) part of the market.

Itd be like advertising make-up toward men sure there are a few out there that use it for whatever reason but its not a large enough part to target.

I'm not saying it's right (i did say it was sexist to ignore them) but I think thats probably the thought process involved. Thoughts?

 

[Ecreag91]

Congrats internet! its been an hour and a half of civilized debate!
hi-lites of the discussion include some slight cynicism some nihilists and most recently a gauntlet being thrown by mortai, where will this debate go?

 

[yeti585]

But if there is a valid reason for it, how is it still discrimination? It wouldn't be based on their sex, it would be based on another reason, if you still even want to call it discrimination.

I don't see a valid reason for it to "especially apply to women". And even with a valid reason it is still discrimination.

 

[Ecreag91]

But if there is a valid reason for it, how is it still discrimination? It wouldn't be based on their sex, it would be based on another reason, if you still even want to call it discrimination.

I don't see a valid reason for it to "especially apply to women". And even with a valid reason it is still discrimination.

an observation if you will,

The definition you are referring to is the second one there as in another meaning of the word, the first one is by far more along the lines of what you are advocating. now for the outrageous Freud remark: maybe you chose to dispute that definition because you are in fact subconsciously sexist?

 

[Luke Gomez]

The Feminist Frequency is probably what was the straw on the camels back, though this issue has been going on for a while, especially as more liberally minded internet critics gain more and more viewers.

On The Escapist in particular I think the Feminist Frequency kickstarter is what spurred a lot of the feminist/sexual identity threads. On the whole I'd say that the escapist would be considered a center-left website, just a quick browsing of the religion and politics section will show you that.

Then, for some reason, when the Fem Frequency kickstarter backlash got brought up, and outright shitstorm occurred. I've yet to see an issue more divisive. I think the scattered and broken opinions made a lot of Escapists genuinely think about how deeper themes and cultural norms may not be as readily accepted as they thought. And so they reached out to the people they knew and trusted, the escapist.

I personally follow the Jimquisition's line of thinking in this (not on this issue in particular but just on the issue of sexism in gaming): regardless of what the outcome is, it's good that gamers are actually thinking of games in terms of ideas and themes.

 

[yeti585]

But if there is a valid reason for it, how is it still discrimination? It wouldn't be based on their sex, it would be based on another reason, if you still even want to call it discrimination.

I don't see a valid reason for it to "especially apply to women". And even with a valid reason it is still discrimination.

By that logic all differentiation is discriminatory. Gynecologist only sees women? Discrimination.

Dictionary.com (seeing as we are already using it) defines discrimination as:

1.
to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality
2.
to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately
3.
to make or constitute a distinction in or between; differentiate
4.
to note or distinguish as different

And you don't even know why they put it there, so how can you assume? For all you know they did it merely to reflect how it's actually used.

Okay, people are using it in a sexist way.

 

[Ecreag91]

The Feminist Frequency is probably what was the straw on the camels back, though this issue has been going on for a while, especially as more liberally minded internet critics gain more and more viewers.

On The Escapist in particular I think the Feminist Frequency kickstarter is what spurred a lot of the feminist/sexual identity threads. On the whole I'd say that the escapist would be considered a center-left website, just a quick browsing of the religion and politics section will show you that.

Then, for some reason, when the Fem Frequency kickstarter backlash got brought up, and outright shitstorm occurred. I've yet to see an issue more divisive. I think the scattered and broken opinions made a lot of Escapists genuinely think about how deeper themes and cultural norms may not be as readily accepted as they thought. And so they reached out to the people they knew and trusted, the escapist.

I personally follow the Jimquisition's line of thinking in this (not on this issue in particular but just on the issue of sexism in gaming): regardless of what the outcome is, it's good that gamers are actually thinking of games in terms of ideas and themes.

*golf clap

Well put sir the question is how do we take all of this energy and direct it in a positive direction?

 

[Luke Gomez]

A solution? Errr, well this is why you should never rely on a critic, we only break down, we can't build up.

In all honesty though, I think we now need to just be more vigilant. We cannot just let the "old ways" stay as they were. It's not comfortable, but we can't just let assholes be assholes. I don't mean censorship, but we need to call them out more, and we need to lay down the line that "this is not who we are, either get it or fuck off".

That of course is a pie in the sky thought and will probably never work. What you can do as an individual is keep speaking up, and don't let the screams of assholes drown you out.

 

[Ecreag91]

A solution? Errr, well this is why you should never rely on a critic, we only break down, we can't build up.

In all honesty though, I think we now need to just be more vigilant. We cannot just let the "old ways" stay as they were. It's not comfortable, but we can't just let assholes be assholes. I don't mean censorship, but we need to call them out more, and we need to lay down the line that "this is not who we are, either get it or fuck off".

That of course is a pie in the sky thought and will probably never work. What you can do as an individual is keep speaking up, and don't let the screams of assholes drown you out.

The thought that occured in my mind while reading this was an internet forum poster looking at a new game and seeing a scantily clad girl wearing non-armor in an armor situation in order for sex appeal and his reply being this "tits? *****, ARMOR or GTFO!" which is hilarious to me

 

[aba1]

I think a lot of people forget that a fictional character cannot be sexist to people outside the story itself. A character can only be sexist if he treats others in the story different based on sex and even then that is just part of the character, characters are allowed to be flawed it is part of what drives the story. Also a story is fictional so nobody real. So it really can't address anybody unless it breaks the forth wall.

You're mincing words. People mean that the portrayal is sexist.

The second we start restricting the story's we can tell is the second art and freedom of expression is dead.

That's nonsense in this context. No one is calling for laws or anything. It's merely social pressure. Social pressure that DOES already stop us from telling certain stories anyway. No one that I've seen is for literally restricting them.

If people don't care for the characters and story that is fine they don't have to enjoy it but don't say a story is wrong because it is not restricted to your guidelines.

Stop killing their freedom of expression. The second we start restricting what criticism people can give is the second freedom of expression is dead. See? I can do it too. And that's really hypocritical of you.

1. A portrayal of a character is a large part of any story so taking away the ability to portray undesirable characters restricts where you can take a story if we take it a little further you could just as easily argue having villains is not really exceptable.

2. I wasn't talking about laws but social pressures set standards among developers restricting artistic freedom with story's and settings. There are already tons of restrictions in place I guess you didn't realize that is why no adult themed games cannot be made anymore and the whole rating system is in place (mind you the rating system makes sense because it doesn't deny things simply restricts them from viewers who might not be mature enough to handle the themes).

3. I didn't say people cannot dislike these elements in fact I specifically said it is fine to not like things but many times you see people saying it is WRONG to have certain elements. You don't have to like a game or movie but there is a difference between not liking something and not being ok with peoples artistic integrity to make the game or movie however they feel is best.

For instance I can say I hated the simpsons and disliked it and that is fine but it would be wrong to say it is a stupid movie and was really crappy. To say I disliked it would be my personal opinion the other would be declaring a opinion as a fact about the product.

 

[yeti585]

an observation if you will,

The definition you are referring to is the second one there as in another meaning of the word, the first one is by far more along the lines of what you are advocating. now for the outrageous Freud remark: maybe you chose to dispute that definition because you are in fact subconsciously sexist?

"We have to go deeper!" To correct you I'd be subconsciously misogynist. But, since it is subconscious and we are products of our environment that would show that the world, or at least my small corner of it, is misogynist.

That's kind of stupid when you consider context. 2-4 aren't exactly the definitions meant when speaking of sexism.

ignore the "in favor of or against" and they are the same statements. Also you can't argue that no distinction is "in favor of or against" a person or thing.