Why all the sudden sexism/feminism?

[Galletea]

I have to admit I got somewhat annoyed reading all this when I got to the point about the definition being sexist. Perhaps it's because people are rarely sexist against men and that's why it mentions women in particular? Most dictionaries will define it the same, with the same emphasis on women. Geez.

Anyway, I don't really see the issue so much. I think that games are generally swinging away from being particularly sexist, or at least they're beginning to. Yeah there are a few titles that exist exclusively on objectifying women, but it's a male dominated market. I wouldn't go to a magazine section and expect each title to cater for everyone, that would be stupid. Also, a lot of the women in recent games have been strong characters, not just for eye candy.

 

[zefiris]

So on to the topic in the OP. Sexism in video games. I honestly can not say I see a lot of it but I may be looking wrong. By the definition of sexism we are using Lara Croft is not sexist, she is the opposite. She should be a feminist icon!

A character that is sexualized, weakened, beaten up, and implied to be threatened by rape, all, in the words of the co-creator, "to make her feel protect worthy to men", is a feminist icon?
A creation of someone that is evidently completely unable to understand that men might be able to identify with a female character, or that women game?

I don't think its just about females...but just growing up in general, not pandering to (what seems like) 14 year olds

I mean I'm sure we can say variety and just generally being better in quality is a good thing?

...You know what? You're actually absolutely right. This really is the issue.

 

[Vault101]

Not at all, but making two dozen different threads about it in a week does.

I don;t think it does, I think it just makes it one of those hot topic issues...and I think the thing is those issues are automatically interesting...like you kind of know your gonna get some real good arguments...well I know I'm like that

 

[Vault101]

Fair enough I suppose.

Gets tedious though when the same people are throwing the same points back and forth.

while I get the concept of "white knighting" it kind of annoys me when people accuse others of it..feels like just another way of blocking talking about actual issues, "white knights" don;t bother me...

just me though (not targeting you)

 

[Thaluikhain]

while I get the concept of "white knighting" it kind of annoys me when people accuse others of it..feels like just another way of blocking talking about actual issues, "white knights" don;t bother me...

Argh, yes. Almost to the extent it's lost its original meaning and become a silencing tool.

 

[Ledan]

So, my current thoughts:
Most games appear sexist because most devs and teams are men. They are not sexist, they are just more able to identify with a male character. They can get in the mindset. At some level, they are making the character reflect them. Same reason why western games don't have that many other ethnicities in them, or why they all take place in either the UK or US. Most games are made there.
Iranian studio makes a game centered in the middle east (forget where. Or was it in somalia?). Fat shark (Swedish) makes a post apocalyptic game in Sweden.
The current trend in videogames is to be white male american centric, because most games are made by and for them. A lot of indie devs are more varied because... they are more varied.

So i would say they aren't being sexist, as long as they aren't turning aspiring girl devs and programmers away. Should we be asking the anime and manga studios to center their stories away from japan? Aren't they being japancentric? Aren't video games(most) being amerocentric?
Yes, but idk if we should blame them.

I think with time there will be more varied devs, and the games will reflect that.

 

[itsthesheppy]

I don't think discussion about gender issues is necessarily a new or sudden thing. It's just, the Feminist Frequency kickstarter backlash has thrust it into the forefront of our minds. A couple months from now and the noise will die down.

It's an important discussion to have. Every time it comes up, I like to think we push, kicking and screaming the whole way, closer to a future where nobody has to feel objectified or treated as though they are less than anyone else.

 

[Ledan]

So on to the topic in the OP. Sexism in video games. I honestly can not say I see a lot of it but I may be looking wrong. By the definition of sexism we are using Lara Croft is not sexist, she is the opposite. She should be a feminist icon!

A character that is sexualized, weakened, beaten up, and implied to be threatened by rape, all, in the words of the co-creator, "to make her feel protect worthy to men", is a feminist icon?
A creation of someone that is evidently completely unable to understand that men might be able to identify with a female character, or that women game?

A child character who at first is defeated by the simplest of challenges, who fears death and killing, who over time becomes able to overcome these challenges and more? Yeah, that is totally sexist.

People dont seem to understand that this is Lara croft at Level 0. If she was awesome already, then there would be no story, and no real character to her. She wouldnt be human. By starting this weak, we can see how she grows in the game. To the point where she is the iconic Lara Croft: Tomb Raider. Level 100

 

[Mikeyfell]

EDIT: FIRST TOPIC; How, if at all, have games that have been made in the last 5 years have been sexist?


I actually felt the need to revive this account because of how prevalent this topic has become. So using ONLY the Dictionary.com definition of these two words (sexism and feminism)can you present your case? Note I am not the ultimate judge in this and I probably will fall to a bias I only ask that when you do present your case you maintain civility and not attack anyone directly for the opinions they hold (because lets be honest attacking someone on the internet for their opinion is about as useful to the progression of the human race as masturbation it might be fun for a little while but it ultimately gets us no where. JOKES!)

Anywho the definitions of these words are:

Sexism:
sex·ism   [sek-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

Feminism:
fem·i·nism   [fem-uh-niz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.

If you feel another word needs to be properly defined so that were not arguing over the objectivity involved then let me know and I'll add it.

Come on internet and fellow gamers lets try and show the world that we can be adults!
So... any takers that want to get the ball rolling I assume people will start on the topic of sexualization in video games of (gender)?

Finally, somebody comes out and says it.
Attractive character models are not sexism!

At most they contribute to objectification, which is NOT sexism (It's not good, but it's not sexist) In most of these games the overly sexy women are portrayed as at least competent at what they do. So when ever I hear foul cries of sexism I always have to scratch my chin and go "Huh?"

It doesn't seem like to much of a stretch for the people crusading for this cause could at least be bothered to learn the definition of the word they're fighting against.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Most games appear sexist because most devs and teams are men. They are not sexist, they are just more able to identify with a male character. They can get in the mindset. At some level, they are making the character reflect them. Same reason why western games don't have that many other ethnicities in them, or why they all take place in either the UK or US. Most games are made there.
Iranian studio makes a game centered in the middle east (forget where. Or was it in somalia?). Fat shark (Swedish) makes a post apocalyptic game in Sweden.
The current trend in videogames is to be white male american centric, because most games are made by and for them. A lot of indie devs are more varied because... they are more varied.

So i would say they aren't being sexist, as long as they aren't turning aspiring girl devs and programmers away. Should we be asking the anime and manga studios to center their stories away from japan? Aren't they being japancentric? Aren't video games(most) being amerocentric?
Yes, but idk if we should blame them.

I think with time there will be more varied devs, and the games will reflect that.

There are oodles of games made about space marines fighting aliens in the far future on distant worlds.

Now, saying that a game developer or a gamer can understand someone like that, but someone who is, say, black or gay or female...don't buy that.

 

[Phasmal]

At most they contribute to objectification, which is NOT sexism (It's not good, but it's not sexist) In most of these games the overly sexy women are portrayed as at least competent at what they do. So when ever I hear foul cries of sexism I always have to scratch my chin and go "Huh?"

You seriously don't get why people find the fact that women are mostly portrayed as wank-fodder to be objectionable?
You don't think it is sexist to only portray women as `sexy`, whereas men can have a wide variety?
I'm not even sure what to say to that. (In b4 `you're not the target demo!`).

It does make me wonder whether it's the industry or the community that has the bigger problem, though.

 

[3quency]

I think a lot of people forget that a fictional character cannot be sexist to people outside the story itself. A character can only be sexist if he treats others in the story different based on sex and even then that is just part of the character, characters are allowed to be flawed it is part of what drives the story. Also a story is fictional so nobody real. So it really can't address anybody unless it breaks the forth wall.

The second we start restricting the story's we can tell is the second art and freedom of expression is dead.

If people don't care for the characters and story that is fine they don't have to enjoy it but don't say a story is wrong because it is not restricted to your guidelines.

Whilst some if this is true, a story can also be sexist. For instance, having a villain be an independent woman who thinks for herself, prove (in the story) that this is the wrong way to think and then kill her off horribly.
Sorry, but saying that a story can't address anybody without breaking the fourth wall is just plain dumb. Remember the phrase Show Don't Tell?

Restricting art is always a tricky business. You always seem to end up with one of two extremes - the "death" of creativity or protected bigotry.
If forced to pick between the two, I'd go with creative freedom every time but that wouldn't stop me from calling out works that were inherently bigoted.

 

[Frankster]

At most they contribute to objectification, which is NOT sexism (It's not good, but it's not sexist) In most of these games the overly sexy women are portrayed as at least competent at what they do. So when ever I hear foul cries of sexism I always have to scratch my chin and go "Huh?"

You seriously don't get why people find the fact that women are mostly portrayed as wank-fodder to be objectionable?
You don't think it is sexist to only portray women as `sexy`, whereas men can have a wide variety?
I'm not even sure what to say to that. (In b4 `you're not the target demo!`).

It does make me wonder whether it's the industry or the community that has the bigger problem, though.

Not everyone has extensive experience with these kinda threads you know?

Mickey isn't technically wrong after all, he just wasn't familiar enough with the usual arguments and counter arguments, the one in this case being: Men typically display a wider variety of attributes that characterizes them beyond their physical appearance then with their female equivalents where being sexy tends to end up being their only important attribute.

Of course at the risk of actually sparking some debate, I could raise a few things about how because we value an attractive female more then an attractive male it leads to physical appearance becoming more important in a female character which in turn helps men being considered the disposable and killable gender you can brutally murder by the bucket loads whereas women are attributed a certain sacred quality where they can't be hurt and need to be protected in turn making them become a reward for succesful males and promoting passive women over active ones and...
Yeh il stop there.

 

[Ledan]

Most games appear sexist because most devs and teams are men. They are not sexist, they are just more able to identify with a male character. They can get in the mindset. At some level, they are making the character reflect them. Same reason why western games don't have that many other ethnicities in them, or why they all take place in either the UK or US. Most games are made there.
Iranian studio makes a game centered in the middle east (forget where. Or was it in somalia?). Fat shark (Swedish) makes a post apocalyptic game in Sweden.
The current trend in videogames is to be white male american centric, because most games are made by and for them. A lot of indie devs are more varied because... they are more varied.

So i would say they aren't being sexist, as long as they aren't turning aspiring girl devs and programmers away. Should we be asking the anime and manga studios to center their stories away from japan? Aren't they being japancentric? Aren't video games(most) being amerocentric?
Yes, but idk if we should blame them.

I think with time there will be more varied devs, and the games will reflect that.

There are oodles of games made about space marines fighting aliens in the far future on distant worlds.

Now, saying that a game developer or a gamer can understand someone like that, but someone who is, say, black or gay or female...don't buy that.

If the person making the space marine game is a white guy, surrounded by white guys, he is more likely to make a game about a white guy space marine.
And if he is american, then the post apocalyptic city will be there, instead of somewhere else.
Whats hard to understand that a white guy will make a white guy character? Space marines or cowboy or knight or detective or treasure hunter or whatnot doesnt matter. A white guy is more sure of what a white guy would do as a character in a videogame.

 

[Ecreag91]

pleasantly surprised at the civility of this thread so far,

The current topic seems to be is objectification the problem or is it sexism driven?

My thoughts are that objectification is in and of itself NOT sexist because objectification can go either way but the grossly skewed quantity of objectification of women vs that of men is a problem that is easiest to describe as a whole as sexist. thoughts?

 

[Ashley Blalock]

I'm not sure that video games are the best place to address the social problems of how one sex is viewed compared to the other sex.

Yes you can find objectification in video games. Yes you can find unrealistic things like the jiggle in the Dead or Alive games. And yes you can find enough body image problems to give just about anyone a complex.

But it seems like video games are more of a reflection of the society that spawned them rather than being the trend setters. To really get at the problem like body image it seems like it would be a better fight to go after the fashion world where models look like they came out of a death camp. It would be better to go after the over airbrushing of models into something unrealistic. Or to push TV and movies for great female characters that don't fit the stereotypes.

Making a stand at video games seems like resources for change that could be better spent somewhere else. Change the ideal in TV, movies, and magazines and games will follow. But just changing games will not change the wider societal problems.

 

[Phasmal]

But just changing games will not change the wider societal problems.

That doesn't give games a free pass.
And sadly, we do have it worse than other places.
I don't go into a book store and get asked if I'm `lost`. Don't get called a slut for watching a movie.
We have problems in our community/industry, and we have to face up to them.