Why are all the good games rated "M"?
- Thread starter Eggsnham
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Well frankly you aren't doing a very good job of supporting your argument. You still have yet to name any great M games that aren't shooters, or even explain why the games you have mentioned are better than the E-T rated games other people have listed.Eggsnham said:
Step up to the plate and prove your point here.
Oblivion: RPG- Great and creative gameplay. Not necessarily focused on violence.boholikeu said:
God of War series: Action game- Great fun and good story.
Dead Space: Yes it is technically a shooter, but it has enough horror/RPG elements to qualify it as something other than shooter.
Fallout 3: Again, it's technically a shooter, but it's also an RPG.
(I'm beginning to question the 'no shooters' "rule", set up by you, because many great games are shooters anyways, but I'll keep going.)
The Darksiders: Not a shooter, but I've heard it's good, as I've never played it.
MGS4: A shooter, technically; but it's so good that you have to make an exception.
Assassin's Creed 2: Not a shooter.
Dragon Age, Origins: Not a shooter.
Prototype: Not a shooter, however; greatness of said game can be debated.
Fables 1 and 2: Not shooters.
Mortal Kombat series: Not shooters.
And plenty more. Is the list good enough for you?
Claiming all the good games are rated M simply means that you need to broaden your tastes in games.
My favourite thing about the different rating systems is that they are so inconsistent from one country to another.s69-5 said:
For example, God of War, MGS4 and Halo 2 are all rated 'M' in the US right?
In the UK, God of War has a rating of 18+, MGS4 is 15+ and Halo 2 is 12+(!).
In general though, I find a lot of the ratings over here to be more lenient, quite a few M rated games only get a 15+ here, and while we have 18 instead of 17, I don't think a lot of 17 year old Brits are missing out.
Well, first of all, the Uncharted games are rated T and they are great (although with the amount of language and violence, I'm surprised that it didn't get an M rating).
Other than that, it's pretty much what the other people have said. They say it better than I could.
Other than that, it's pretty much what the other people have said. They say it better than I could.
The fact that you're having trouble thinking of some games that aren't shooters shows that you need to branch out a bit.Eggsnham said:
Great, now just explain why these titles are better than all the E-T games people already mentioned.Eggsnham said:
Also, just as an aside, I did a quick search of the top rated games for each platform on Metacritic, and 68 out of the top 102 titles were NOT rated M.
These are all the E-T rated games in the top 20 list for each platform. The spaces are either M rated games, or double listings for cross platform games.
ps3
2 Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 2009 96
3 LittleBigPlanet 2008 95
7 Street Fighter IV 2009 94
9 Braid 2009 94
11 Rock Band 2007 92
14 Rock Band 2 2008 91
15 FIFA Soccer 10 2009 91
19 MLB 09: The Show 2009 90
20 WipEout HD Fury
xbox360
14 Guitar Hero II 2007 92
17 Forza Motorsport 3 2009 92
Wii
1 Super Mario Galaxy 2007 97
2 Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, The 2006 95
3 World of Goo 2008 94
4 Super Smash Bros. Brawl 2008 93
6 Metroid Prime Trilogy 2009 91
8 Okami 2008 90
9 Metroid Prime 3: Corruption 2007 90
10 Beatles: Rock Band, The 2009 89
12 Guitar Hero 5 2009 89
13 Tiger Woods PGA Tour 10 2009 88
14 New Super Mario Bros. Wii 2009 87
15 DJ Hero 2009 87
16 Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure 2007 87
17 Little King's Story 2009 87
18 Bomberman Blast 2008 86
19 LostWinds: Winter of the Melodias 2009 86
20 Boom Blox Bash Party
DS
2 Flipnote Studio 2009 93
3 Chrono Trigger 2008 92
4 Mario Kart DS 2005 91
5 Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story 2009 90
6 Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, The 2007 90
7 Advance Wars: Dual Strike 2005 90
8 Jump Ultimate Stars 2006 89
9 Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow 2005 89
10 New Super Mario Bros. 2006 89
11 Meteos 2005 88
12 World Ends With You, The 2008 88
13 Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan 2005 87
14 Elite Beat Agents 2006 87
15 Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, The 2009 87
16 Kirby: Canvas Curse 2005 86
17 Ouendan 2 2007 86
18 Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes 2009 86
19 Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time 2005 86
20 Planet Puzzle League
PC
2 Out of the Park Baseball 2007 2007 96
6 Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn 2000 95
8 Command & Conquer 1995 94
10 Civilization II 1996 94
13 Grim Fandango 1998 94
15 Civilization IV 2005 94
19 Homeworld 1999 93
20 Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
psp
3 Lumines 2005 89
4 WipEout Pure 2005 88
5 Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of The Lions 2007 88
7 Tekken: Dark Resurrection 2006 88
8 Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children 2006 88
9 Ridge Racer 2005 88
10 Jeanne d'Arc 2007 87
14 Disgaea: Afternoon of Darkness 2007 87
15 Burnout Legends 2005 86
16 PixelJunk Monsters Deluxe 2009 86
17 Patapon 2008 86
19 Daxter 2006 85
20 LocoRoco 2
So, out of 102 unique titles, 68 of them were NOT rated M.
ps3
2 Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 2009 96
3 LittleBigPlanet 2008 95
7 Street Fighter IV 2009 94
9 Braid 2009 94
11 Rock Band 2007 92
14 Rock Band 2 2008 91
15 FIFA Soccer 10 2009 91
19 MLB 09: The Show 2009 90
20 WipEout HD Fury
xbox360
14 Guitar Hero II 2007 92
17 Forza Motorsport 3 2009 92
Wii
1 Super Mario Galaxy 2007 97
2 Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, The 2006 95
3 World of Goo 2008 94
4 Super Smash Bros. Brawl 2008 93
6 Metroid Prime Trilogy 2009 91
8 Okami 2008 90
9 Metroid Prime 3: Corruption 2007 90
10 Beatles: Rock Band, The 2009 89
12 Guitar Hero 5 2009 89
13 Tiger Woods PGA Tour 10 2009 88
14 New Super Mario Bros. Wii 2009 87
15 DJ Hero 2009 87
16 Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure 2007 87
17 Little King's Story 2009 87
18 Bomberman Blast 2008 86
19 LostWinds: Winter of the Melodias 2009 86
20 Boom Blox Bash Party
DS
2 Flipnote Studio 2009 93
3 Chrono Trigger 2008 92
4 Mario Kart DS 2005 91
5 Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story 2009 90
6 Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, The 2007 90
7 Advance Wars: Dual Strike 2005 90
8 Jump Ultimate Stars 2006 89
9 Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow 2005 89
10 New Super Mario Bros. 2006 89
11 Meteos 2005 88
12 World Ends With You, The 2008 88
13 Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan 2005 87
14 Elite Beat Agents 2006 87
15 Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, The 2009 87
16 Kirby: Canvas Curse 2005 86
17 Ouendan 2 2007 86
18 Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes 2009 86
19 Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time 2005 86
20 Planet Puzzle League
PC
2 Out of the Park Baseball 2007 2007 96
6 Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn 2000 95
8 Command & Conquer 1995 94
10 Civilization II 1996 94
13 Grim Fandango 1998 94
15 Civilization IV 2005 94
19 Homeworld 1999 93
20 Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
psp
3 Lumines 2005 89
4 WipEout Pure 2005 88
5 Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of The Lions 2007 88
7 Tekken: Dark Resurrection 2006 88
8 Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children 2006 88
9 Ridge Racer 2005 88
10 Jeanne d'Arc 2007 87
14 Disgaea: Afternoon of Darkness 2007 87
15 Burnout Legends 2005 86
16 PixelJunk Monsters Deluxe 2009 86
17 Patapon 2008 86
19 Daxter 2006 85
20 LocoRoco 2
So, out of 102 unique titles, 68 of them were NOT rated M.
The percentage is even higher if you include older platforms like the dreamcast and ps2, with roughly 70% of all 90/100 or higher games being in the E to T range. Just looking at the statistics of it all, your argument is pretty baseless.
DeadlyYellow said:
Well said. I really think that anyone who agrees with the OP needs to expand their gaming horizons a bit, or at least re-evaluate what they consider a "good" game to be.s69-5 said:
Ah, how did I miss demon's souls? It seems like such a good game. In any case, I should clarify, I don't play only "M" games, I just think that limiting these games to people under 17 is stupid; we should have a rating system like the UK's, it's more specific to parents and doesn't promote the thinking of "only a couple more years!" That many people have come to adopt for various reasons in American society. However, I do like games that aren't rated "M", there are many that are great fun and worth every cent. I like to play both MW2 and Ratchet and Clank, two amazing games that are at polar opposites in terms of ratings.s69-5 said:
I like shooters, I like RPG's, I like RTS' etc. etc. I don't need to branch out.boholikeu said:
I did claim that only good games were rated "M", what I meant to say was along the lines of "Many good games are rated "M"."
Explaining to you and others why a game is great is purely a matter of opinion, I like physics and graphics, as well as a good story and the ability to do what I please, these elements mixed together is a perfect win for me, but maybe someone else doesn't like the story, or refuses to play the game because they think that the series sold itself etc. etc. It's like when a lesser known musical group that you like gets popular and you don't like their new sound. Whatever. It's opinion. I do like other game genres though and I like to play many games that aren't rated "M".
The problem that I think with T and E+10 (or whatever) games is that they make the mistake they do with cartoons these days... They feel the need to make the game overly lame by putting elements that only kids the ages of 5-10 would find appealing, even though they are trying to sell the game to pre-teens/teenagers... I don't think they realize that most teenagers find this sort of thing is nearly insulting to their intellect.
A prime example would be the Ratchet and clank series... At 23 years of age, I found the atmosphere and the game play to match those of M rated games, maybe even surpassing those games depending on which ones we're talking about. The turning point however, is the fact that the voice acting and attempt at comedy is something that only really young players under the age of 10 would find appealing. Which is why most teenagers or pre-teens immediately overlook it and aim their young eyes at games like MW2 and L4D.
I make this statement on the fact that even as a teenager, I would most likely over look this game for the fact that it's almost embarrassing that they believe this is something the targeted age group would find appealing, despite how beautiful the atmosphere looks and how well done the game play and combat was...
If it wasn't for the fact that developers, producers, and writers constantly think that their target audience should be pampered with the misconception that they are 5 years of age... Teenagers and preteens wouldn't constantly looking for M rated games to fulfill their entertainment needs, because I've noticed that the gap between T and M rated games is larger than the Grand Canyon if you take a close look at it.
Maybe if it wasn't for the fact that there are so many anti-gaming parents eagerly awaiting to pick up their pitchforks and cry foul every time something hits the shelves that they feel should be banned from their kids' radar. (Despite most of them buying them M rated games anyway.) The general populous of teenagers (especially teens 16 and up) wouldn't have to look towards games like MW2.
There is nothing T rated that even remotely appeals to teenagers 2-3 years away from being considered legally an adult, because when producers, developers, and everything in between think of teenagers, they automatically think of 11-13 year old preteens, and thus the T rating is stamped... Which of course, that then pushes E10+ (or again whatever
) down to things that would most likely be considered more appealing to childen under the age of 10.
I'm not saying they should correct their rating system... They should just expand the T rating to appeal to those who are near the age of being considered adults, but aren't quite there.
Either that or there should be classes for over protective parents to teach them that their preteen/teenager is by no means whatever an angel.
I'm not saying that children in that age group are all brats... There are kids that get extremely good grades, and have extremely mature tendencies, but that still doesn't mean that they will find most of the games that are rated T appealing, because of the various problems I've mentioned before.
This may seem to contradict what I've mentioned in that one post where the 13 year old was upset that his mother would not let him play MW2, but in that scenario, he was looking for help to bypass his mothers ruling.. Which I found to be immature and unacceptable behavior.
Not sure why I feel the need to bring that up, but meh... Better to be safe than sorry.
That's my take on it... If there's anything that anyone wants to add or that they disagree with, feel free to respond! I enjoy mature conversations like this!
A prime example would be the Ratchet and clank series... At 23 years of age, I found the atmosphere and the game play to match those of M rated games, maybe even surpassing those games depending on which ones we're talking about. The turning point however, is the fact that the voice acting and attempt at comedy is something that only really young players under the age of 10 would find appealing. Which is why most teenagers or pre-teens immediately overlook it and aim their young eyes at games like MW2 and L4D.
I make this statement on the fact that even as a teenager, I would most likely over look this game for the fact that it's almost embarrassing that they believe this is something the targeted age group would find appealing, despite how beautiful the atmosphere looks and how well done the game play and combat was...
If it wasn't for the fact that developers, producers, and writers constantly think that their target audience should be pampered with the misconception that they are 5 years of age... Teenagers and preteens wouldn't constantly looking for M rated games to fulfill their entertainment needs, because I've noticed that the gap between T and M rated games is larger than the Grand Canyon if you take a close look at it.
Maybe if it wasn't for the fact that there are so many anti-gaming parents eagerly awaiting to pick up their pitchforks and cry foul every time something hits the shelves that they feel should be banned from their kids' radar. (Despite most of them buying them M rated games anyway.) The general populous of teenagers (especially teens 16 and up) wouldn't have to look towards games like MW2.
There is nothing T rated that even remotely appeals to teenagers 2-3 years away from being considered legally an adult, because when producers, developers, and everything in between think of teenagers, they automatically think of 11-13 year old preteens, and thus the T rating is stamped... Which of course, that then pushes E10+ (or again whatever
) down to things that would most likely be considered more appealing to childen under the age of 10.I'm not saying they should correct their rating system... They should just expand the T rating to appeal to those who are near the age of being considered adults, but aren't quite there.
Either that or there should be classes for over protective parents to teach them that their preteen/teenager is by no means whatever an angel.
I'm not saying that children in that age group are all brats... There are kids that get extremely good grades, and have extremely mature tendencies, but that still doesn't mean that they will find most of the games that are rated T appealing, because of the various problems I've mentioned before.
This may seem to contradict what I've mentioned in that one post where the 13 year old was upset that his mother would not let him play MW2, but in that scenario, he was looking for help to bypass his mothers ruling.. Which I found to be immature and unacceptable behavior.
Not sure why I feel the need to bring that up, but meh... Better to be safe than sorry.
That's my take on it... If there's anything that anyone wants to add or that they disagree with, feel free to respond! I enjoy mature conversations like this!
I personally think that the rating system needs a full overhaul with less gap between the age groups i.e. "E" is intended for everyone between 6-12 (I don't care about "E10") and "T" is intended for kids 13-16 while "M" is obviously 17+. This is unfair and biased towards teenagers, basically it's like saying "We know that you can handle this game mentally, but we won't acknowledge that, because hey, rules is rules." They might as well just flick off anyone between 13-16. And I always thought that Ratchet and Clank was spot on with the humor (then again, my closest memories of R&C was "Up Your Arsenal" when I was 11-12). Everything else I agree with you on.snowfox said:The problem that I think with T and E+10 (or whatever) games is that they make the mistake they do with cartoons these days... They feel the need to make the game overly lame by putting elements that only kids the ages of 5-10 would find appealing, even though they are trying to sell the game to pre-teens/teenagers... I don't think they realize that most teenagers find this sort of thing is nearly insulting to their intellect.
A prime example would be the Ratchet and clank series... At 23 years of age, I found the atmosphere and the game play to match those of M rated games, maybe even surpassing those games depending on which ones we're talking about. The turning point however, is the fact that the voice acting and attempt at comedy is something that only really young players under the age of 10 would find appealing. Which is why most teenagers or pre-teens immediately overlook it and aim their young eyes at games like MW2 and L4D.
I make this statement on the fact that even as a teenager, I would most likely over look this game for the fact that it's almost embarrassing that they believe this is something the targeted age group would find appealing, despite how beautiful the atmosphere looks and how well done the game play and combat was...
If it wasn't for the fact that developers, producers, and writers constantly think that their target audience should be pampered with the misconception that they are 5 years of age... Teenagers and preteens wouldn't constantly looking for M rated games to fulfill their entertainment needs, because I've noticed that the gap between T and M rated games is larger than the Grand Canyon if you take a close look at it.
Maybe if it wasn't for the fact that there are so many anti-gaming parents eagerly awaiting to pick up their pitchforks and cry foul every time something hits the shelves that they feel should be banned from their kids' radar. (Despite most of them buying them M rated games anyway.) The general populous of teenagers (especially teens 16 and up) wouldn't have to look towards games like MW2.
There is nothing T rated that even remotely appeals to teenagers 2-3 years away from being considered legally an adult, because when producers, developers, and everything in between think of teenagers, they automatically think of 11-13 year old preteens, and thus the T rating is stamped... Which of course, that then pushes E10+ (or again whatever
I'm not saying they should correct their rating system... They should just expand the T rating to appeal to those who are near the age of being considered adults, but aren't quite there.
Either that or there should be classes for over protective parents to teach them that their preteen/teenager is by no means whatever an angel.
I'm not saying that children in that age group are all brats... There are kids that get extremely good grades, and have extremely mature tendencies, but that still doesn't mean that they will find most of the games that are rated T appealing, because of the various problems I've mentioned before.
This may seem to contradict what I've mentioned in that one post where the 13 year old was upset that his mother would not let him play MW2, but in that scenario, he was looking for help to bypass his mothers ruling.. Which I found to be immature and unacceptable behavior.
Not sure why I feel the need to bring that up, but meh... Better to be safe than sorry.
That's my take on it... If there's anything that anyone wants to add or that they disagree with, feel free to respond! I enjoy mature conversations like this!
That's a good to hear you agree with me. It's a safe bet that mid-teens are indeed getting the shaft.Eggsnham said:
One thing that I want a point out that's related however. I've noticed in a few T or E(insert number here) games. They insult the players intelligence by having some one constantly remind the player of their current goal within a 20-30 second mark. Sure an on screen blip of the current goal is always nice, but do they honestly think that people can't read that they need to have a verbal reminder every 30 seconds?
I'm not sure the rating of the game but I'm assuming it's either E or T but the original transformers game for the Wii and other possible systems is a fine example of this, since right now nothing else comes to mind at the moment.
Putting all Wii bashing in a box for now. I honestly felt that by having some one constantly remind me of my goal, despite having in game blips and icons directing me visually, was a tad annoying to the point where even I wanted to yell "HULK SMASH!!!"
I wanted to assume that it was in there for younger gamers to help them direct them to their intended target, but I can't think of a certain kid in any age group needing such a constant reminder.
Even if I was of actual age for the games targeted audience... [small] Outside the targeted audience that were either fans of the movie, or people in their 30's that were huge transformer fans back when the original cartoons were a riot, like my brother who practically soiled himself when he first hear there was a live action movie coming out.[/small] I would have felt this to be extremely irritating, regardless of what age I was at the time. Perhaps if I were an extremely young gamer at the age between 5-9 I wouldn't matter so much, because it's obvious that the younger you are, the less irritating everything is for you.
That doesn't make sense though, if they were going to make a game that they knew that, not only were they targeting a younger audience, but also an audience that either grew up with transformers in their hearts and an audience that was moved by the movie. Why irritate 75% of your audience to compensate for the rest?
I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's little things that get passed in development like that, that make the game lose it's appeal to those in the age group that want to be viewed as more mature because at that stage in life, their minds and bodies are taking a turn... [small] For the worst... HAH!!!
[/small]They are trying to make these games that are rated T appeal to not only 11-13 year olds, but also 14-16 year olds... Which if memory serves me well, and indeed it does... I can recall having interests at 14-16 years of age that made me wonder why I liked the things I did at 11-13... Though different for everybody, 14-16 year olds start to see themselves a lot differently. For their bodies and minds have passed the rough spots of maturity that left their 11-13 year old selves extremely confused.
Infact, when I placed in charge of a clan in cod4. I found myself making exceptions to my 17+ rule, for I kept finding players with exceptional skill and attitude that were in the 14-16 age group. Although I didn't let every person in that age group in for obvious reasons, there was a good handful that proved to be matured beyond my expectations that made even some of my older clan members seem a little questionable.
It just depends on the person of that age group, but the fact that they are all shot down by the rating system, does not seem very fair for those that could hold a good, deeply serious conversation with me despite our age differences...
I do see a valid point in your response that the rating system needs to be reworked. There should be more of a closing gap to appeal to those in that middle group that depending on the person, they will either most likely feel shafted, or there may be a game here and there that they find entertaining despite it being extremely dumbed down to the point of just damn near insulting.
I do believe it's all a part of the "babying" trend the country is going through these days... Where no company, whether it be gaming, film, or television, wishes to suffer the wrath of the parents for something that could potentially warp the minds of their children.
So they simply just take anything remotely mind warping and we're forced with more or less, 16 years of entertainment that is suitable only for 5-9 year olds.
On the cartoon/television side of things, it is almost as if they assume that every single child has a form of ADD. Hell I know people who take medicine for ADD and ADHD that find these shows to be a giant cluster fuck of illogical random BS. [small] I don't actually believe in such things as ADD. I have a very logical explanation, that I won't get into now to keep the flow of the post going, but if you're a person who was prescribed with ADD medicine and feel slightly offended to this, please don't, it's not to be an insult towards you.. Instead it's an insult to doctors/government/ parents/ etc etc. [/small]
For those who read this that are of my age group, [small] (I'm 23) [/small] Don't you remember shows like Hey dude, Salute your shorts, Rugrats, Ren and Stimpy, Angry Beavers, and although the name escapes me I believe the show was called Gak?
A great portion of these shows were targeted to young viewers and older viewers at the same time. As a youngin when those shows were in their prime, I enjoyed all of them because they all had great storylines, [small] well besides Gak because that was more of a game show if anything[/small] GREAT jokes, and characters you could relate too or connect with.
The shows they have out these days, it makes you wonder, who in their right mind that isn't a preteen or older, watch this crap!!! Everything is so void of anything of intellectual value, only because companies and developers are too afraid to make something that would make younger minds tick, because some parent will go ape shit if it happens to be something that made their darling little angels' mind tick in the wrong direction.
Isn't there anything the TV, film, and gaming companies can do in terms of legal defense that protects them against this sort of thing? Creating a disclaimer for each show and game stating that they aren't responsible for anything the parents feel is unsafe for their children, and if they feel that way they should change the channel or turn it off or take the game away etc etc.
There has got to be some form of legal protection they can come up with to defend themselves from the onslaught of over protective parents so they can get back to releasing products that the other 80% of the population can enjoy..
One can only dream though, I'm sorry if I may have strayed off the topic here and there, but I feel it is all related... Thank you Eggsnham for your response, I'm glad to see I was able to touch on something that you agree with. Although I never got to play that R&C game, I was referring to some of the demos they have on the PS3 at the moment. I forget which one it is, but I remember you played as Clank and had to solve puzzles. The visuals were amazing, the game play was exceptional, but the voice acting and dialogue seemed extremely annoying and, dumbed down. [small] (Especially that damn robot that served as your tutorial guide >:O) [/small]
Edit:
Don't get me wrong, R&C looks like a great game, infact I could safely say it could be one that I may rent one of these days, but I just feel that it may have fallen victim to the degrading affect that the Transformers game suffered from. If you feel differently, just remember it's just a general opinion based on how much of the actual game i got to play.
When you reach a certain age, all things 18+, and in some cases 21+, lose their novelty. Then you'll see things in a more objective light.
It's not that kids under 18 aren't capable of understanding the difference between reality and fantasy, but that it's to keep the tendancy to maim and murder to a minimum until they prove with a reasonable argument that they deserve to play them. It's more of a test to see if you have actually aquired some life skills instead of just saying "mine, mine, mine!" all the time.
Then sometimes you have parents like mine who didn't care what I played, but the serious M games didn't come out until I was already in high school.
It's not that kids under 18 aren't capable of understanding the difference between reality and fantasy, but that it's to keep the tendancy to maim and murder to a minimum until they prove with a reasonable argument that they deserve to play them. It's more of a test to see if you have actually aquired some life skills instead of just saying "mine, mine, mine!" all the time.
Then sometimes you have parents like mine who didn't care what I played, but the serious M games didn't come out until I was already in high school.