Why Are People Against Personal Accountabilty For Individuals Who Behave Badly?

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Guys, this is getting really bad. KissingSunlight made a horrendous claim (pro-criminal, really dude?), but the more we tease him for it the less receptive he's going to be.

 

[Saelune]

because people are innocent until proven guilty.

Why'd the police shoot them then? Police aren't the arbiters of guilt, the courts are. Police should stop shooting people.

Anyway, you really need to add some non-hypothetical examples (links to news I mean) to be clear on the sort of behaviour you're talking about - saying 'I keep seeing this kind of behaviour' doesn't help us understand if you don't provide examples.

Are you seriously asking "Why do police use lethal force to defend themselves?" Do you honestly believe the police should let criminals kill them, because they are not "the arbiters of guilt, the courts are"?

Do you even know what "Innocent until proven guilty" means, cause you sure like calling people criminals before the whole proven guilty part. Legally speaking, we are supposed to give the so-called "criminal" the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Saelune]

Guys, this is getting really bad. KissingSunlight made a horrendous claim (pro-criminal, really dude?), but the more we tease him for it the less receptive he's going to be.

Maybe he should be more open to the other side, and not just call people he disagrees with a criminal.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Maybe he should be more open to the other side, and not just call people he disagrees with a criminal.

I know he's being inflammatory, but we can't just start tossing crap around and expect things to change.

 

[Randomosity]

That about sums it up. People do bad things. Sometimes those people are cops. Sometimes those people are employees of a large corporation. Sometimes those people are just regular people in day to day life. It really doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, or what life you live. We all are capable of making mistakes.

People should be able to own up to mistakes. Cops have the right to defend themselves, but the public also has the right to scrutinize the actions of said cop. Perhaps a cop did make a mistake. Perhaps he even abused his power. Or maybe he was simply doing his job. Protecting his life even. Or he could have even made a snap decision in the heat of a moment. Who knows, every situation is different. There is no right answer.

Someone trespasses on your property, do you shoot em? If you answer yes, I ask you this. If that person is little 8 year old Billy who knocked his wiffle ball into your back yard, do you shoot him? I should hope not. Every situation needs context. Every situation exists on a spectrum. Sometimes it is clear cut, other times it is muddy. We could all dance around all day talking about hypothetical situations, but none of that means a damn. The real world isn't neat and tidy like our minds want it to be. Context is key in accountability.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Guys, this is getting really bad. KissingSunlight made a horrendous claim (pro-criminal, really dude?), but the more we tease him for it the less receptive he's going to be.

But maybe we should be expecting some personal accountability from him?

 

[KissingSunlight]

That about sums it up. People do bad things. Sometimes those people are cops. Sometimes those people are employees of a large corporation. Sometimes those people are just regular people in day to day life. It really doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, or what life you live. We all are capable of making mistakes.

People should be able to own up to mistakes. Cops have the right to defend themselves, but the public also has the right to scrutinize the actions of said cop. Perhaps a cop did make a mistake. Perhaps he even abused his power. Or maybe he was simply doing his job. Protecting his life even. Or he could have even made a snap decision in the heat of a moment. Who knows, every situation is different. There is no right answer.

Someone trespasses on your property, do you shoot em? If you answer yes, I ask you this. If that person is little 8 year old Billy who knocked his wiffle ball into your back yard, do you shoot him? I should hope not. Every situation needs context. Every situation exists on a spectrum. Sometimes it is clear cut, other times it is muddy. We could all dance around all day talking about hypothetical situations, but none of that means a damn. The real world isn't neat and tidy like our minds want it to be. Context is key in accountability.

Thank you. This is the best post so far in this thread.

In case anyone was wondering, I wasn't avoiding responding because of the teasing. I was actually having a life away from the computer. Seriously, fresh air does wonders for you. Especially, when you are debating social issues online.

So, what I have learned so far: People are just biased against institutions and authority figures or anyone who acts like an authority figure (someone using lethal force to defend themselves). It's this jumping to conclusion that companies, police, etc. must have done something wrong when people see a video and/or read a headline about someone getting hurt or shot. Personally, what I have found when you take the time and get all the facts. It is usually the person that everyone thinks is the "victim" was behaving like an asshole and deserved what happened to him. However, by the time this revelation has come out, people are too invested in hating the police officer, company, etc. to admit they were wrong about their quick conclusion.

 

[Saelune]

That about sums it up. People do bad things. Sometimes those people are cops. Sometimes those people are employees of a large corporation. Sometimes those people are just regular people in day to day life. It really doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, or what life you live. We all are capable of making mistakes.

People should be able to own up to mistakes. Cops have the right to defend themselves, but the public also has the right to scrutinize the actions of said cop. Perhaps a cop did make a mistake. Perhaps he even abused his power. Or maybe he was simply doing his job. Protecting his life even. Or he could have even made a snap decision in the heat of a moment. Who knows, every situation is different. There is no right answer.

Someone trespasses on your property, do you shoot em? If you answer yes, I ask you this. If that person is little 8 year old Billy who knocked his wiffle ball into your back yard, do you shoot him? I should hope not. Every situation needs context. Every situation exists on a spectrum. Sometimes it is clear cut, other times it is muddy. We could all dance around all day talking about hypothetical situations, but none of that means a damn. The real world isn't neat and tidy like our minds want it to be. Context is key in accountability.

Thank you. This is the best post so far in this thread.

In case anyone was wondering, I wasn't avoiding responding because of the teasing. I was actually having a life away from the computer. Seriously, fresh air does wonders for you. Especially, when you are debating social issues online.

So, what I have learned so far: People are just biased against institutions and authority figures or anyone who acts like an authority figure (someone using lethal force to defend themselves). It's this jumping to conclusion that companies, police, etc. must have done something wrong when people see a video and/or read a headline about someone getting hurt or shot. Personally, what I have found when you take the time and get all the facts. It is usually the person that everyone thinks is the "victim" was behaving like an asshole and deserved what happened to him. However, by the time this revelation has come out, people are too invested in hating the police officer, company, etc. to admit they were wrong about their quick conclusion.

What about people accused of rape?

Edit: And you yourself disregard context if you are quick to favor one side.

I dont disagree with the intent of the topic, I just think you have proven to be guilty of what you are criticizing others for.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

In case anyone was wondering, I wasn't avoiding responding because of the teasing. I was actually having a life away from the computer. Seriously, fresh air does wonders for you. Especially, when you are debating social issues online.

So, what I have learned so far: People are just biased against institutions and authority figures or anyone who acts like an authority figure (someone using lethal force to defend themselves). It's this jumping to conclusion that companies, police, etc. must have done something wrong when people see a video and/or read a headline about someone getting hurt or shot. Personally, what I have found when you take the time and get all the facts. It is usually the person that everyone thinks is the "victim" was behaving like an asshole and deserved what happened to him. However, by the time this revelation has come out, people are too invested in hating the police officer, company, etc. to admit they were wrong about their quick conclusion.

Y'know. I just went out on a limb in your defence. It would be nice if you attempted to do the same for reciprocity if nothing else.

 

[KissingSunlight]

In case anyone was wondering, I wasn't avoiding responding because of the teasing. I was actually having a life away from the computer. Seriously, fresh air does wonders for you. Especially, when you are debating social issues online.

So, what I have learned so far: People are just biased against institutions and authority figures or anyone who acts like an authority figure (someone using lethal force to defend themselves). It's this jumping to conclusion that companies, police, etc. must have done something wrong when people see a video and/or read a headline about someone getting hurt or shot. Personally, what I have found when you take the time and get all the facts. It is usually the person that everyone thinks is the "victim" was behaving like an asshole and deserved what happened to him. However, by the time this revelation has come out, people are too invested in hating the police officer, company, etc. to admit they were wrong about their quick conclusion.

Y'know. I just went out on a limb in your defence. It would be nice if you attempted to do the same for reciprocity if nothing else.

Sorry about that. Thank you.

I'll do a mea culpa about the "pro-criminal" comment. I was being snarky. I understand that was crossing the line. I'm sorry.

 

[Randomosity]

That about sums it up. People do bad things. Sometimes those people are cops. Sometimes those people are employees of a large corporation. Sometimes those people are just regular people in day to day life. It really doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, or what life you live. We all are capable of making mistakes.

People should be able to own up to mistakes. Cops have the right to defend themselves, but the public also has the right to scrutinize the actions of said cop. Perhaps a cop did make a mistake. Perhaps he even abused his power. Or maybe he was simply doing his job. Protecting his life even. Or he could have even made a snap decision in the heat of a moment. Who knows, every situation is different. There is no right answer.

Someone trespasses on your property, do you shoot em? If you answer yes, I ask you this. If that person is little 8 year old Billy who knocked his wiffle ball into your back yard, do you shoot him? I should hope not. Every situation needs context. Every situation exists on a spectrum. Sometimes it is clear cut, other times it is muddy. We could all dance around all day talking about hypothetical situations, but none of that means a damn. The real world isn't neat and tidy like our minds want it to be. Context is key in accountability.

Thank you. This is the best post so far in this thread.

In case anyone was wondering, I wasn't avoiding responding because of the teasing. I was actually having a life away from the computer. Seriously, fresh air does wonders for you. Especially, when you are debating social issues online.

So, what I have learned so far: People are just biased against institutions and authority figures or anyone who acts like an authority figure (someone using lethal force to defend themselves). It's this jumping to conclusion that companies, police, etc. must have done something wrong when people see a video and/or read a headline about someone getting hurt or shot. Personally, what I have found when you take the time and get all the facts. It is usually the person that everyone thinks is the "victim" was behaving like an asshole and deserved what happened to him. However, by the time this revelation has come out, people are too invested in hating the police officer, company, etc. to admit they were wrong about their quick conclusion.

I am of two minds about this, honestly. On the one hand I think it isn't such a bad thing to be critical of authority figures, institutions, and corporations. These entities do hold a lot of power, and scrutinizing them can help keep them in line. Unchecked power is a dangerous thing after all. But on the other hand, there are real people on both sides. As much as we like to think it, the police, or corporations, or the government are not faceless entities. There are real people who work there.

At the end of the day I simply think people in general need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and try to look at things objectively. Not likely to happen, but it would be nice. We are all busy people, and we all carry our own baggage. Snap decisions based on personal biases are simply bound to happen. There literally is not enough hours in a day to become well informed on every topic that comes up. Every story is different, and certainly all the facts should be sought, but only so many hours exist in a day. So we make snap judgement. In a perfect world this wouldn't happen, but we do not live in a perfect world so we need to make do with what we got.

 

[KissingSunlight]

What about people accused of rape?

Edit: And you yourself disregard context if you are quick to favor one side.

I dont disagree with the intent of the topic, I just think you have proven to be guilty of what you are criticizing others for.

OK, I know you trying to play "Gotcha!" I'll give you an honest answer to that question. I am for letting all the facts come out and letting the courts decide the guilt or innocence of people. Regardless of the crime, rape or excessive force by a police officer.

What I am against is people jumping to conclusions and forming angry mobs and declaring someone is guilty seconds after watching an out-of-context video clip online. Which seems to happen way too much. I think we are better than that. At least, we should be better than that.

 

[Saelune]

What about people accused of rape?

Edit: And you yourself disregard context if you are quick to favor one side.

I dont disagree with the intent of the topic, I just think you have proven to be guilty of what you are criticizing others for.

OK, I know you trying to play "Gotcha!" I'll give you an honest answer to that question. I am for letting all the facts come out and letting the courts decide the guilt or innocence of people. Regardless of the crime, rape or excessive force by a police officer.

What I am against is people jumping to conclusions and forming angry mobs and declaring someone is guilty seconds after watching an out-of-context video clip online. Which seems to happen way too much. I think we are better than that. At least, we should be better than that.

And I am against people just assuming cops are infallible.

 

[KissingSunlight]

What about people accused of rape?

Edit: And you yourself disregard context if you are quick to favor one side.

I dont disagree with the intent of the topic, I just think you have proven to be guilty of what you are criticizing others for.

OK, I know you trying to play "Gotcha!" I'll give you an honest answer to that question. I am for letting all the facts come out and letting the courts decide the guilt or innocence of people. Regardless of the crime, rape or excessive force by a police officer.

What I am against is people jumping to conclusions and forming angry mobs and declaring someone is guilty seconds after watching an out-of-context video clip online. Which seems to happen way too much. I think we are better than that. At least, we should be better than that.

And I am against people just assuming cops are infallible.

I am not a fan of people who thinks cops are infallible.

I think we are coming close to a complete agreement here.

I am against people just assuming "victims" are infallible. Can I get you to agree with that statement?

 

[Randomosity]

What about people accused of rape?

Edit: And you yourself disregard context if you are quick to favor one side.

I dont disagree with the intent of the topic, I just think you have proven to be guilty of what you are criticizing others for.

OK, I know you trying to play "Gotcha!" I'll give you an honest answer to that question. I am for letting all the facts come out and letting the courts decide the guilt or innocence of people. Regardless of the crime, rape or excessive force by a police officer.

What I am against is people jumping to conclusions and forming angry mobs and declaring someone is guilty seconds after watching an out-of-context video clip online. Which seems to happen way too much. I think we are better than that. At least, we should be better than that.

And I am against people just assuming cops are infallible.

Cops certainly can and do make bad calls, mistakes, or even intentionally awful decisions. They are people just like you or me.

I think the real crux of this is in regards to the court of public opinion. Innocent until proven guilty needs to work both ways. Did the person commit a crime, or was it a misunderstanding, or mistake, or false accusation? Who knows, that is what needs to be sorted out. On the other hand, did the cop protect his life, or senselessly kill a person? Same thing, who knows, that is what needs to be sorted out.

No one in this world is infallible, but people as a whole really do need to cut back on the court of public opinion. Not every cop is abusive of their power. Not every every person accused of rape, theft, murder, or littering is guilty of such crimes. Some are, some aren't.

 

[EternallyBored]

In case anyone was wondering, I wasn't avoiding responding because of the teasing. I was actually having a life away from the computer. Seriously, fresh air does wonders for you. Especially, when you are debating social issues online.

So, what I have learned so far: People are just biased against institutions and authority figures or anyone who acts like an authority figure (someone using lethal force to defend themselves). It's this jumping to conclusion that companies, police, etc. must have done something wrong when people see a video and/or read a headline about someone getting hurt or shot. Personally, what I have found when you take the time and get all the facts. It is usually the person that everyone thinks is the "victim" was behaving like an asshole and deserved what happened to him. However, by the time this revelation has come out, people are too invested in hating the police officer, company, etc. to admit they were wrong about their quick conclusion.

As someone who is an authority figure, and has been responsible for more than a few people going to jail or prison, yeah, people are often biased against authority figures, but people are also often blindly obedient to them, especially those that have never been abused by the system, you seem to fall into the later category. Authority figures hold most of the cards, so they can much more easily hide their missteps and abuses and get away with them hence why the public tends to hold us to a higher standard of behavior, because an authority figure, agency, or company that abuses that authority is almost guaranteed to face much less severe consequences than the person under their authority.

I can abuse my authority in so many ways, I am given automatic trust and weight in the justice system that if a cop/judge only has my word and my client's word to go on, I am almost always going to automatically win unless the client can prove me wrong in a very concrete way, and if I was truly a scumbag I could probably weasel my way into winning even then.

I get the impression from your posts that you commit the same issues from the other side, judging the situation without context, and picking sides as if the issue was black and white. Your "pro-criminal" comment strikes me as someone that has seen people unfairly judge authority and instead of stepping back and judging the situation critically from both sides, you've decided to make excuses about personal accountability unwittingly committing the same mistake as those that too quickly judge authority. You've swung to other side without actually avoiding any of the pitfalls you seem to rail against.

 

[Saelune]

What about people accused of rape?

Edit: And you yourself disregard context if you are quick to favor one side.

I dont disagree with the intent of the topic, I just think you have proven to be guilty of what you are criticizing others for.

OK, I know you trying to play "Gotcha!" I'll give you an honest answer to that question. I am for letting all the facts come out and letting the courts decide the guilt or innocence of people. Regardless of the crime, rape or excessive force by a police officer.

What I am against is people jumping to conclusions and forming angry mobs and declaring someone is guilty seconds after watching an out-of-context video clip online. Which seems to happen way too much. I think we are better than that. At least, we should be better than that.

And I am against people just assuming cops are infallible.

I am not a fan of people who thinks cops are infallible.

I think we are coming close to a complete agreement here.

I am against people just assuming "victims" are infallible. Can I get you to agree with that statement?

Only if you are willing to consider that maybe you yourself are sometimes quick to jump to biased conclusions too.

I certainly have become very anti-authority lately, but it is not like I -want- to distrust those in power, especially people like police who are the ones actively involved in directly upholding law and hopefully justice.

I just think it is up to The Police to fix the problems, since well, they are supposed to be the good guys, with the training and organization. Innocent people should never have to fear police, but the power is in the police's hands. It is up to them to ensure officers do not have, or atleast do not let unfair bias paint their actions, as well as train them to keep a level head and act and react appropriately in tense and dangerous situations.

 

[Randomosity]

In case anyone was wondering, I wasn't avoiding responding because of the teasing. I was actually having a life away from the computer. Seriously, fresh air does wonders for you. Especially, when you are debating social issues online.

So, what I have learned so far: People are just biased against institutions and authority figures or anyone who acts like an authority figure (someone using lethal force to defend themselves). It's this jumping to conclusion that companies, police, etc. must have done something wrong when people see a video and/or read a headline about someone getting hurt or shot. Personally, what I have found when you take the time and get all the facts. It is usually the person that everyone thinks is the "victim" was behaving like an asshole and deserved what happened to him. However, by the time this revelation has come out, people are too invested in hating the police officer, company, etc. to admit they were wrong about their quick conclusion.

As someone who is an authority figure, and has been responsible for more than a few people going to jail or prison, yeah, people are often biased against authority figures, but people are also often blindly obedient to them, especially those that have never been abused by the system, you seem to fall into the later category. Authority figures hold most of the cards, so they can much more easily hide their missteps and abuses and get away with them hence why the public tends to hold us to a higher standard of behavior, because an authority figure, agency, or company that abuses that authority is almost guaranteed to face much less severe consequences than the person under their authority.

I can abuse my authority in so many ways, I am given automatic trust and weight in the justice system that if a cop/judge only has my word and my client's word to go on, I am almost always going to automatically win unless the client can prove me wrong in a very concrete way, and if I was truly a scumbag I could probably weasel my way into winning even then.

I get the impression from your posts that you commit the same issues from the other side, judging the situation without context, and picking sides as if the issue was black and white. Your "pro-criminal" comment strikes me as someone that has seen people unfairly judge authority and instead of stepping back and judging the situation critically from both sides, you've decided to make excuses about personal accountability unwittingly committing the same mistake as those that too quickly judge authority. You've swung to other side without actually avoiding any of the pitfalls you seem to rail against.

This is one case where I think our justice system is flawed. In a my word vs your word situation, the defendant should hold the more substantial weight. The whole burden of proof being on the accuser, innocent until proven guilty, and all that. This isn't to say that you are abusing your power, just an observation and opinion on our justice system.