Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[AngloDoom]

Because people feel the moment someone tells them not to be a dickhead, they have to turn around and declare that, no good sir, you are the dickhead for treading on the toes of their right to talk like a moron.

 

[Halceon]

It's because incredible amounts of males will try to defend their masculinity against ALL attacks and, quite frequently, do so in the most unmasculine way possible - by decrying everything that doesn't fit their current worldview.

 

[fulano]

Myself, matter of fact, but that's only because I find Myself to be very awesome myself. I think Myself is a very nice chap, though Myself's sandwiches not so much. Myself tends to screw them up quite often, but I don't pay no mind to that 'cause I know Myself does the best he can.

I... Yeah well you!... ...
...

Fuck!

I find I am quite thwarted by your Shakespearean command of linguistics good sir.
I meekly offer my surrender before thy masterful torrent of words lest thou unravel my very being with a following salvo.

I bid thee adieu!

[sub]Okay what the monkey fuck is up with these whoreson captchas? I have had to refresh the donkey loving thing 3 times to get a usable one![/sub]

Adieu it is... ...in the french context, hopefully.

[sub]On a side note: Anyone noticing how the capchas are becoming more and more random, occasionally spouting out grabled symbols and longer and longer gibberish of words?[/sub]

 

[Dexiro]

Even so the name "Feminism" doesn't suggest equality at all. It suggests "female equality", "female rights". Like I keep saying equality is a 2 sided coin, you can't just account for one side.

And even with that definition there are feminists that argue that men's liberation is a necessary part of feminism, and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles.

Well if that's true then I'm fine with it, I just think that should be a more dominant view.

 

[LittleBlondeGoth]

I never really understood why more girls don't enjoy playing games. I suppose I got into them from a very early age. I first started playing Granny's Garden back in junior school on the BBC Micro they had, and never looked back. I think they actually had to prise me away from it at the end of the day with a crowbar...

But anyway.

I find it very hard to get worked up over caricatures and stereotypes in games. There's some on both sides of the fence - females who're going to suffer from incredible back pain in later life, and leading men that suffer from what I tend to call 'Captain Meathead Syndrome'. But to me, how they look isn't anywhere near as important as whether or not I enjoyed playing them, or playing against them. Were they a well developed character? Someone like Nathan Drake in Uncharted, for example. Good looking chap, wise-cracking, always there in the nick of time... But overall he was believeable and fun to journey through the game with.

Numerous people have mentioned them, but Bioware do this sort of thing really well. Dragon Age and Mass Effect allowed you to be male or female, young or old. You could also be nasty or nice, and the story adjusts itself to your choice, but whatever way you go, you're still a badass. I thought DA:O worked better with a female lead, but ME with a male. Personally? I don't mind playing a male character if that's the only option. But if I'm given the choice, I'll play a female. Not because I want to burn all men at the stake, but because that's me. I'm a woman. I want to see me in this character and how I interact with the world.

As for getting more girls interested in games... I can't say I've ever been convinced by the formula of sticking Barbie onto the box and turning the thing pink. I don't want games to appeal to me as a girl, I want them to appeal to me as a gamer. I won't buy something just because it has a pretty box. I don't much care who the main character is, or whether his / her proportions are even feasible (I'm looking at you, Lara). What I want something that I will find enjoyable and engaging to play. A story that keeps me interested. A plot that goes beyond "point gun, shoot". Something that makes me laugh. Or cry. Or something that I look at and go "whoa...." because it's so breathtakingly intricate and well thought out.

 

[etherlance]

Oh man, ive been running into this alot. Some people HATE when females actually do things like grown ups.


Theres this one video on youtube, about how this one guy looks like a girl, so when he talks some guys actually tell him he needs to be quiet and hes being a ***** for saying something. And he correctly points out how thats dumb, girls are allowed to talk, duh.

The comments are ASTOUNDING "HOW DARE YOU, YOU HATE ALL MEN! YOU WANT TO DESTROY MEN! ARRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
amazing.

Can you post a link or give the name of the video?

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Point of clarification: Cheaper than your girlfriend doesn't mean her as a person. It means the overall relationship, IE, dating, presents, and monetary favors. It isn't saying women are cheap, it is saying that relationships are expensive. It would be easier to agree with feminism if they didn't take things like this seriously. It isn't cheapening women, it is saying something goofy at guys.

As for the main point, no, I am not against feminism in games. I want happy friends, neighbors, and relatives in all aspects of my life. So we need to encourage developers to take chances and lay out some more female protagonists. I also think this means we need to have more female enemies in games. Borderlands is an example of way too few female enemies. You will kill thousands of men, literally thousands of men but apparently only a tiny handful of women will raise a weapon at you. Without DLC, NO woman raises a weapon against you.

I believe we need to lose a bit of the aversion to the death of women in our media. They need to be our equal in life and death. Obviously some games have plenty of dead women but if you take it overall, men die in droves. The upside of this idea, which probably has painted me as quite the villain, is that we would encourage more female villains with depth.

On the flipside of this, I'd like to see a game where you play the villainess. I can think of three games of the top of my head where we explore the evil of man and what might drive him. (Hint: it is usually the cliche' revenge, not that I am complaining. I dig revenge.) So let's explore a woman's reasons or hell, since revenge is so gratifying, let's explore a woman's journey of vengeance. Let's look under the hood and see what gremlins lie in wait. Hell, I find myself wondering how Prototype might have been different if you played as Elizabeth Green instead of Alex Mercer.

While I am sure that some of this has been done, I honestly can't say that the scales are even remotely even. So let's bring out the opportunity and spur these developers into giving us more women in our games. Damn, now I want a female version of Overlord, minus my complaints about that game in general...

 

[tkioz]

I can only speak for myself, but it's just I'm honestly sick to death of hearing about it; Ever since primary school I've had it spewed at me about how the "white man" held down other races and how men in general held down women and frankly after 30 years I've just had it with it.

Yeah you might have a point, but you've belabored the point so much I just don't care anymore, if anything I want to oppose you not because of any real objection on the merits, but just because you've pissed me off.

 

[Labyrinth]

We 'whine' about those as well, actually. See, if Duke Nukem was the only game in which this is the case it wouldn't be an issue, it'd be a lone incident. The issue is that the industry overall consistently and persistently throws up games in which this behaviour is encouraged.

Oh, go ahead. Name 3 excluding Duke. I will wait.
Besides, lets say there were actually a fair number of games out there with this sort of material, why should people not have the option to play these games? You would have the industry remove peoples options. How about we start limiting female oriented games huh. See, the very notion is offensive. Should we limit the number of violent video games too because it upsets pacifists?
Fact is, if you do not like it, do not play it.

Oh really now? I'm a real feminist too

No you're not.

and I assure you, it's still very relevant. While Yale fraternities are preaching that "no means yes, yes means anal" we still need feminism.

No. We do not. Because that has nothing to do with feminism. That is about rape. Rapists do not care about equality of women. The feminist part of that is convincing the legal system that that is rape. Which has already been done.

While non-cis, non-heterosexual students are still persectued for not adhering to gender norms to the point where they are 6 or more times more likely to commit suicide, we still need feminism.

Not a feminist issue. That is feminists trying to take on other, non feminism related causes just to feel relevant seeing as how they are outdated. Would be like PETA taking on race issues...

While what the victim was wearing is an excuse for rapists, we still need feminism.

Once again. You can not call that a feminist issue. Rapists are gonna think what they want. The only time feminism should be brought into it is if it is used in court and no civilised court is gonna take that sort of claim even semi seriously. Hell, most of them will go harder on the rapist since it shows a lack of remorse.

While men are still refused monetary support and encouragement to become primary carers we still need feminism.

... You do realise feminism is about women right? Stop trying to claim other issues are feminist issues.

And these are contemporary western issues. Not even starting on the global ones that feminism is always relevant to such as the battle against arranged marriage, infant genital mutilation, sexual slavery and the systematic use of rape as a weapon of terror in war.

And if you are over in those countries then you will be relevant. In the west you are not a true feminist anymore.

Let's see now. How many myths about the feminine have we here? The automatic assumption that women desire marriage is the most prominent one. Not to mention the idea that all it takes is a potentially false proposition to turn a woman into a whore.

Dudes not necessary offering her marriage. He is just offering her a bit of shine in return for sex. Plus I have noticed one thing about that picture. Every woman takes it as the man giving the woman something. None of them even think about the fact that she is giving him something in return for the shiney. And yes, maybe more people are not wanting marriage. But there are still a whole metric fuck-tonne that do.

How about the near-limitless quantity of feminist argument against marriage as an instution as it originates from principles of controlling female sexuality and the definition of women as property of their fathers, then their husbands? I call horseshit on that picture.

Yeah and tinned food was invented to feed the army. Does that mean anti-war protestors should be opposed to something based on what it may originally have been designed for?
Black people were enslaved to pick cotton, yet I bet youll not find any black person who refuses to wear cotton because of some stupid bit of history that has nothing to do with today.
I can not control what pissy people choose to take offence to because at some point it history it meant something else.

Do remember that not all women are feminists. I have never met a female feminist who would do what that picture suggests, and I've met a lot of women who don't claim to be feminists who would call horseshit on it as well.

Already said that not all women are feminists. Modern feminists just can not accept that they are too late, that they are not needed anymore. And femnazis are just idiots who happen to be women. Plus of course no woman is gonna admit she will fuck for a ring. But slap a ring in front of them and see how many do...

White, heterosexual males perhaps. They're not exactly a majority of the population, they're just the ones with the privilege to believe that if it's for them, it's for everyone and if everyone doesn't enjoy it then there's something wrong with them or they're bitching unnecessarily. This is the very essence of endemic privilege, that the second something includes or targets a group other than that, it's deemed less valuable or a betrayal. Look at the bullshit that got thrown around when Bioware put non-mandatory homosexual relationships into Dragon Age, including relationships which were only directed at females. Even heterosexual females. How many games do we see in which the usual protagonist is not white and male and below 50 and heterosexual, and this is not considered revoltionary, devious, betrayal of the 'target audience' or innovative?

Once again. You are trying to take the opinions of a absolutely tiny number of people and turn it into a issue. The number of people that complained about the homosexual option was tiny. Most of those who did complain about the homosexual thing with Anders in DA2 was more to do with the way it was handled [http://v.cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-20110314-c6e0a.png]. Which actually kinda made the DA2 lead writer look like an ass since he was trying to take the moral high ground and totally glossing over the fact that the way they implemented it was shitty and forced.

There's no evidence to suggest that women, for example, wouldn't be a core demographic for games which target them. Who are you to say that is not a valuable thing to aim for?

Fine. Then allow them to have games that target them.
Stop trying to take away games that target others just because they do not target you.
Sims does not target me, I do not ***** about it because I am not its core audience. Day time soaps do not target me, once again, I do not ***** about them.
I do not try to change them or demand they be removed.
I let you have your options that appeal to you. You leave games that appeal to me alone.

End of story is this. Feminists are done. They are no longer needed in the western world. The "feminists" of today are trying to emulate the role models of the last couple generations so they are trying to take on others issues to try to still feel like they are important.
You want to take on gender issues as a whole? Stop labelling yourself a feminist. Think up a new title because one thing you are not is a feminist. Going after non issues under the title feminist just sullies the memory of the women who fought to be considered more than property.

K. Thanks sport.

And these are contemporary western issues. Not even starting on the global ones that feminism is always relevant to such as the battle against arranged marriage, infant genital mutilation

It disturbs me that you don't classify this as a contemporary western issue.

To be candid of my perspective, I do come from a privileged middle-class white background in a western country in which I will not experience any of those things I spoke of as global issues. I put infant genital mutilation in the realm of global feminism because it's a huge issue for cultures all over the world in which the feminist fight is continuing. I have no doubt that cultural progression will mean that the other issues mentioned become increasingly focused on outside of the western world but there are, as it were, bigger fish to spitroast first, the flesh of which will fuel the battles to come.

But kids don't dream of being the doofus who played Anakin in the prequels: their hero figures are Luke, Han, etc. Similarly, women - and you have to put aside your own experiences and preferences to accept this - are largely uninterested in women taking traditionally male roles or acting masculine in video games (or films for that matter).

Put aside my own experience and preferences to accept some rather blatant stereotyping and generalising? Why? Because if I bring even a modicum of my personal experience and preference to bear it'll show the falsity of your claims? I refuse to accept them, sorry. Out of curiosity, how many women have you asked to get that information? As a female gamer myself, and one who speaks to a fair number of others, we'd love to have female protagonists who are strong, run in weapons-blazing and generally behave in a manner which you would likely view as traditionally female. Ever seen Firefly or Serenity? Zoe from that is fucking awesome. I would love to play a character like her in a game some time. She is every inch the army sergeant while at the same time being a fleshed out, human character who plans to have a fuller family than just her husband Wash.

Just because someone identified as female does not behave as tradition demands of her gender, it does not make her any less female. Nor does it make her less identifiable to women any more than the gun-toting machismo of Male Character X is to the male players.

I suspect that any extensive polling of female gamers would also show a desire for female protagonists. Just as we choose female skins/characters in RPGs we'll go for the main characters too.

 

[DanielO]

I don't exactly know how to respond to this, as I don't know the origin of OP. By that I mean which country she's from. I'm currently living in Holland, I did a research paper a while back that touched on the subject of female rights in the Netherlands, and I've got to say, I haven't really ever met an anti-feminist. Ever. Period. Not at the gym, where brawny men such as construction workers and such come, not at the university, not in the family, not among friends. Never have I seen anyone speak out openly against feminists. Nobody on TV, for that matter, speaks out in such a way. We do have a small Reformed Party, the SGP, which supports the old fashion role models: male at work, woman at home with the children. It's their interpretation of the Holy Script, and up until now, they haven't been bothering ANYONE with it, except themselves. They do get bashed a fair lot by feminists, which claim that the women who agree an condone this way of life are ignorant and yadayadayada, but the amazing this is, that these people do NOT go into a counteroffensive, but are merely stating their beliefs and carrying on with their day.

I just think that the way we act around here in Holland is fundamentally different from the xxx-rights- scenes in for instance America. I could be wrong, but I'm getting the fair impression that debates about these things tend to get more steamed up than is necessarily useful.

Feminism is a good thing. The female gender deserves the same opportunities as others. Women deserve the same rights as others. But please, oh please, don't hate on me when I'm with friends, a hot girl walks by and we mumble sexual jokes to one another, that's just a guy thing. You can have jobs, cars, careers, children, anything you want. Just don't take our male heterosexual humour... that would be the end of us.

 

[Belated]

I don't feel the advertisement is as offensive as people make it out. First of all, in no way whatsoever is it implying that all girls are cheap. No, not at all. It is merely implying that YOUR girlfriend in particular is cheap. Not every girlfriend. Just YOURS. It's the same as making a "your mother" joke. It's just a variation of it. I'd have nothing against a store that wanted to post a "cheaper than your boyfriend" advertisement. And there probably wouldn't be so much controversy around a store posting a "cheaper than your mother" advertisement.

If anything, the poster is just as mean to the male gamers it targets as it is to their girlfriends. Because it's implying that all male gamers have cheap girlfriends. Like male gamers can't do any better? Shouldn't we be offended by this too? Except we're not. Because male gamers can take a joke.

Now it's true that it is implying that most gamers are male, but most gamers ARE male. This is just how things are right now. A statistic is not sexism. And even if we had equal gender distribution, this poster still isn't a big deal.

And as I said, it wouldn't be any worse or any better if they made one that read "cheaper than your boyfriend", nor would it bother me at all. Even if I actually dated a gamer girl, who actually went to that store. It's harmless. It is not sexism. It is just immature humor. It's on the same level as those "your mom" jokes that kids on Xbox Live seem to love so much.

And whether you think it's offensive or not, why bother getting this upset about it? It's an ad. A stupid piece of paper meant to sell you something. And it will probably be taken down in a month or so, never to be seen again. Why make such a big deal out of it? A store should be able to get away with making immature jokes without having to get the mass media involved.

 

[flatten_the_skyline]

I think that most people's idea of feminism isn't what the actual feminists support.

At least most feminists (me, as a male, included) don't support the idea of a female supremacy or idolize butches. Feminism is supposed to be about choice.

It's wrong for people to criticize girls who like "boy things" such as gaming and Wrestling.

It's wrong to criticize them for wearing make-up or wanting to look attractive as well.

What most self-proclaimed feminists that I know demand is that everyone regardless of sex or gender has the right to do whatever he/she feels like, and they work for a world where diversity in role models exists.

Nobody but a few extremists want to tell a woman that she can't look pretty or attractive. We don't want to keep men from working out. What we want is a media that shows that there are alternatives to that. The woman doesn't always have to be right. But in the broad majority of games she's either the love interest put in so her boobs can profit from cutting edge graphics, a weak and "girlish" persona (take Riku from FFX) or a man with tits (Lara Croft). Actually, Yuna from FFX makes for a good female character in my books. (not in FFX-2 of course, but then again let's just pretend the sequel never existed) She's strong and determined to sacrifice herself, but she also shows that the task is heavy on her. She's beautiful, but not dressed in a bikini. (again, ignore FFX-2) I think it is great to see that she can be weak, while there is no man that is stronger than her.

As long as most games portray women wearing ridiculously small amounts of armor in medieval games, and as long as they're reduced to their sexuality, as long as homosexuals belong in the comedy section, games are not better than other media.

As some pointed out, this is what we get everywhere - in movies, ads, magazines as well. Machete is pretty much like Duke Nukem, both a little on the satirical side while still taken seriously by too many people.

I haven't given up hope yet that games grow up and get over the stereotype.

Because male gamers can take a joke.

Funny how you argue that that ad campaign isn't sexist, but then you burst out a sexist remark like that. Are you actually implying that men, unlike women, have a sense of humour? The Joke just isn't funny if you hear it every day.